Spiral Knights - Is this helpful? (discussion on Spyral-Spy and the wiki)

Is this helpful? (discussion on Spyral-Spy and the wiki)

29 replies [Last post]

Mon, 10/10/2011 - 08:14

Killys

Thanks to Spyral-Spy we can take clean shots of weapons in his app. I uploaded screenshots of all swords from Spyral Knights.

Please check this link: http://s1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee503/kondzix777/Spiral%20Knights%20...

Please tell me if they are good enough to replace old wiki pictures. I also uploaded one screen here:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/File:Proto_Sword-Equipped.png

but I'm not sure I've done it right, I know there are some issues with
uploading photos on wiki, also is there a way to edit my comment there?
Link to online picture must be fixed. If u guys like this I can make shots of
guns, bombs, armors and monsters. Sorry for my english xD.

Mon, 10/10/2011 - 09:00

Equinox

Game Master

Please don't upload new

Please don't upload new versions of images yet due to the wiki image issues. Most of the time all it will do is stretch or compact the old image to the size of the new one. Definitely do not upload such huge versions of things that have not been cropped at all.

Do not upload content that has not been found in game. That app does not use the in-game names for everything, so you may be misnaming things.

I'm not sure how I feel about using this for pictures in the wiki because the wiki is meant to document things in-game. Yes, it gives a clear picture, but that's not how a player would see it in game. Anyone else have thoughts?

Mon, 10/10/2011 - 09:09

Saphykun

It looks helpful, but I'd

It looks helpful, but I'd worry more about if it's allowed. o.o Because "SpiralSpy is neither endorsed nor supported by ThreeRings". It looks awesome, but even Spiral-Spy warned us to use it at our own risk. I don't deny that it's pretty neat, though o.o It just doesn't feel right for the Wiki.

On the image page that you linked to, click on the "edit" tab. That will allow you to edit the description, but you can't edit your comment when you uploaded the image. I don't think you can link to anywhere in the comments section. XD
(And don't worry about your English, it sounds fine! ^^ )

EDIT: Oooh, sniped by Equinox. I stand by my opinion that using a third-party's contributions for Wiki use doesn't feel right. It feels like you're using someone else's work for your own use. It's not stealing. I'm still poking thin air trying to figure out exactly what I want to say.

Also, when I checked the Character section, the arrows are no longer visible. YAY! That means taking screenshots and replacing those images... BOO!
AAAARGH AND I JUST UPGRADED MY ROCK JELLY SHIELD TO A ROYAL JELLY FFFS

Mon, 10/10/2011 - 10:51

Killys

''Please don't upload new

''Please don't upload new versions of images yet due to the wiki image issues.''

- Good to know I will not. Btw what is happening with Wiki?
I heard about this image issues long time ago and it haven't been fixed yet.

''Do not upload content that has not been found in game. That app does not use the in-game names for everything, so you may be misnaming things.''

- Every item I pictured was checked first on wiki (look and name), some of them even in game. I agree images should be taken in
game (mine look like renders). However there isn't good way to picture things in-game. Even when I'm using 1920x1200 resolution, pictures taken in character window are way to small, can't zoom in or out, can't change camera angle and can't pose character. Maybe I want to much, maybe people don't care about it and 150x150 resolution is enough?

What You think about setting scene so it would look like taken in-game? :)
That would be great for monsters and bosses, in-game camera angle is just bad for this (tiny monsters).

Maybe OOO will implement something in-game someday like encyclopedia where u can see 3d models of items and monsters.
Some games have that option. Even increasing size of character window and allowing zooming and free camera floating would be very helpful for wiki editors. To be clear I don't edit wiki I search through it often and just like things clear, cell phone resolution hurt my eyes :D

I think it's great app (thank You Spyral-Spy) and we should use it when we can. OOO use something similiar for making forum
avatars, we can set scene so it would look in-game and keep it clean too, not bad thing imho.

Tue, 10/11/2011 - 06:14

Spiral-Spy

Wiki is not really my cup of

Wiki is not really my cup of coffee, but since I obviously kicked something off here, I'd just like to mention that part of my intent to publish SpiralSpy is/was to assist wiki editors. Like Killys, the one thing, that has always been bugging me about the spiral wiki is the rather poor image content concerning gear. Most handheld 5* items have the tendency to be either clipped or shown in odd angles when screenshotted from the character window. Armor and helmets furthermore have the problem of being shown in the personal color of whoever made the screenshot (without readily disclosing what that color is). This is particularly bad when you are window shopping for costumes. Furthermore, and this is a personal matter of taste, I find cropped together characterwindows (to show a front and a back view of a gear) rather ugly and distracting.

In my opinion, the main point about a wiki should be usability. Screenshots from the game are certainly better than no visual content whatsoever, but they also lack sorely behind in what would be possible and are certainly not as useful as the clear images, SpiralSpy provides. Most users are probably pragmatic here, preferring a focused view over the distracting "how it is meant to be".
I do agree, in according to the no spoiler policy, that the wiki should only show content that can be found ingame, but I see no reason why it should not be tweaked and/or standardized. I would even go as far as suggesting, that the "Grey Pith Lord" should be used as a mannequin for displaying gear. Thats pretty much to only way to avoid confusion about what a certain piece of armor consists about (think "skelly suit" set here -> Some people expect the jawbone to be part of the mask).

PS: Using SpiralSpy for the wiki does not mean an endorsement of a 3rd party application. The entire Modelviewer is Threerings code. I only compiled it and put a bootstrap on it, so less tech savvy folks can start it.

Tue, 10/11/2011 - 16:47

Deruku

Get ready for image overdose

I believe Spiral-Spy's tool is great for the wiki as its intention was to get clear pictures and previewing at a glance. However, as Equinox has stated, posting clear images but with things not seen in the game should be avoided. That's why I think there should be a balance and careful use with it. As an example, posting clear pictures of what's only necessary, in this case the weapon/shield/suit/helm, etc in question on a grey or transparent background, as well as keeping the original images as seen in game to avoid posting something different or not yet released/scrapped stuff.

Here's some examples, it's like if a template were made, so let's say, swords, and use the Cutter series.

Cutter and Striker
Hunting Blade
Wild Hunting Blade
Vile Striker
Dread Venom
and the Fang of Vog

When it comes to guns it could be either
Catalyzer to Neutralizer example, like this: 1 2 3 4
Or fancy 3D mode: 1 2 3 4

Bombs would be easier, snarby set: 1 2 3 4

I'm not sure about shields, since they mostly come in different shapes, so following a template would be hard
Skelly shield set as example: 1 2 3 4

As for armor/helm, I think the in game screenshots from the preview are fine, since with the dull grey background the viewer has, it's sometimes hard to remove it on photoshop due to some having glows or effects. as an example could be: Skolver or Skolver solo

Accessories would be like bombs, but they could look silly without the base model.
While this may defend a bit Spiral-Spy's app. It's all up to OOO to allow or not.

Tue, 10/11/2011 - 16:39

Quailia

Nice Job Deruku :D

I love all the examples you made for possible image standards. I propose that all of them be made in a fixed resolution format that can be fit to every item of their specific type.

As for swords, I like having the side-on views, but perhaps it could be aided with another view of a standard character model holding the weapon at the correct camera angle as one might see in a character inspect page.

Guns seem best suited for the 3D angled shot you created; I also believe as with the swords that there should be a representative character model holding the weapon in question. Ditto for Shields.

As for helmets and armor, it may be best to just show each corresponding item on their appropriate item set instead of trying to distil an isolated image for the wiki. The angle of which, however, I don't think should be at the steep dutch angle we see in your preview. Perhaps a side-on 3D much like your gun example -- one side on from the front, and another side-on from the back. I suppose it's up to debate as to if those items should be shown while in a fighting or standing stance.

Tue, 10/11/2011 - 18:52

Deruku

Thanks mate :D

I see your ideas and I think they could be arranged with the app, however I'm still not sure if we should be having as much freedom with the program yet. Maybe using lower resolutions for the images could work too to keep a constant template.

I got another example to propose in regards to the poses to make it look as in game as possible. I used a quick 250x250 template for now (Magic Cloak set, spur, antigua, freezing bomb and swifttrike buckler used):

Sword / Gun / Bomb / Shield

Just my 2 cents on it, I doubt I can make everything here xP.

Wed, 10/12/2011 - 05:33

Spiral-Spy

To clear out a misconception:

To clear out a misconception: You are not stuck with the grid and the grayish background. The modelviewer allows for pimping the visuals. This screenshot uses /world/skybox/modelviewer/model.dat for example:

http://i.imgur.com/IFbKj.png

You can set backgrounds under "Environment models" via Edit|Preferences.

One thing, I would not do is to simply display the weapons on a neutral background. That looks a bit cheap on one hand and leaves the user clueless about the actual gear size on the other. Think about the catalyzer guns here. You are inclined to zoom in until every detail is visible, at which point it appears to be Troika sized. This potentially leaves the windowshopping player disappointed, when finding out that this "big blaster" is an office stapler gun.

IMHO, the best thing to do is to select one neutral background (e.g. the castlefloor in my screenshot) and one neutral knight model in it as a mannequin on which to display only the gear, the according wiki page talks about. That mannequin should be one of the gray models. Furthermore, there should be one standard personal color. That way, every user instantly understands that all of the images are "dress-ups" after viewing 2 or 3 pages and knows what s/he can expect the item in question to look like ingame before acquiring it.

The point, I am trying to make here is that the primary use case of gear images is to assist window shoppers in making an informed decision whether or not they want to acquire a certain item. This can best be archived by
a) providing a frame of reference concerning size (show the gear in question on a knight model).
b) Making sure that the frame of reference is a constant (same knight model, background, personal color and camera settings for all images), so different gears can easily be compared.
c) Removing all unnecessary visual clutter.

Yes, my proposal clashes with the "ingame" requirement. This is simply one of those points where a decision has to be made, whether it is more important to stick to a certain philosophy or to provide a better service.

Wed, 10/12/2011 - 07:45

Equinox

Game Master

Just a reminder to folks,

Just a reminder to folks, this discussion is currently just theoretical due to the image reuploading bug, so please don't try uploading new copies of images because it won't work. For now, just use the usual in-game screenshots for new items for the sake of consistency until both the image bug is fixed and our discussion about how we want the wiki comes to a consensus.

Encourage other editors/wiki users to come by and comment. I've edited the thread title to make it more obvious what it's about. Everyone's made very good points here, carry on!

Wed, 10/12/2011 - 08:26

#10

Trias

As a note on the wiki image

As a note on the wiki image bug issue:

IF we do decide to replace the standard item images with standardized ones created by the spiralspy viewer, there is no need to actually use the same filenames. Since we would be replacing all images of a certain type, we could just use a slightly different naming scheme, and alter the templates to use the new images, thereby bypassing the image reupload bug.

Wed, 10/12/2011 - 13:29

#11

Deruku

@Spiral-Spy

Yeah you seem to have a good point with the neutral backgrounds as well as the zoom in on the weapons. About the grey backgrounds, I wasn't really saying that the program was limited to it as is it indeed a powerful tool to begin with. My attempt was to make something different on the images so they could be welcomed on the wiki while staying on the "rules". (Take the TF2 wiki as an example, they got their images from weapons, models, etc from the source engine viewer, so that's pretty much the approach I went to).

Nevertheless though ,Spiral-Spy's ideas should come out on top of all since of course, he made the viewer accessible to us (and I'm hogging it lol). I'm still not sure about the grey pith model. We could try to define specific knight models to do the posing (even MORE magikat hat wearers to tease us?) or just take reference to the original pictures (even though I think up to this point having the new clear images this way over the past ones would look redundant unless there was more info on the articles).

Wed, 10/12/2011 - 16:20

#12

Dirt

I'm going to post a support

I'm going to post a support ticket I put in here, for you all.

My message:: As I am sure you are aware a user has recently released a model viewer that allow users to pull up any .dat file and view it at their leisure. My question is: would I be safe to use this in updating the Wiki with proper item previews? I would like to make is an easier viewing experience for those not familiar with the game and think this would help immensely. I understand your decision, no matter what you say, and will respect it.
The response:: Greetings,
Just so I understand your question, are you asking about posting images of items that haven't been seen in game, or posting better images of known items?

Best wishes,

- Cronus
My response:: I would only be interested in updating pictures for known, existing items so that users can get a clearer picture of what it looks like. A lot of people have asked in-game and on the forums for an update on the items and they don't seem to understand that people must find the items before it can be updated. On that note, I would rather only update items that have existing pictures, as I do not know which ones are currently unavailable.
The second response:: Greetings,
I'm sorry for the delay, but we wanted to take the time to talk it over. Because the wiki is supposed to show people what items are in game, we want the images to reflect that. So you're going to want to avoid using the model viewer for wiki images because that's really not what they'll look like in game. It also becomes much more difficult for us to police if people are adding images to the wiki of content that hasn't been released. If we restrict it to in game images, that is a lot easier.

If you have any additional questions about this, feel free to ask Equinox in the Wiki Editors forum. Thank you for taking the time to ask how we'd like the images handled, I appreciate it.

Best wishes,

- Cronus

Wed, 10/12/2011 - 16:20

#13

Equinox

Game Master

Sorry guys, but the powers

Sorry guys, but the powers that be have made an official decision that the wiki should have in-game images. The policy may be revisited at a future time.

Wed, 10/12/2011 - 16:21

#14

Dirt

Beat you to it, Equinox. :P

Beat you to it, Equinox. :P Thanks, though.

Wed, 10/12/2011 - 22:25

#15

Scarred-Knight

Knowing that this topic is

Knowing that this topic is pretty much over at the current time, I only come to bring an image. This is to further enforce the power that the Model Viewer has in terms of combining models and environments, lets use an image I made of a friend as an example...

http://i.imgur.com/2CCyz.png

This is the product of a couple different softwares: SpiralSpy, and GIMP 2.6

Basically, I created the model and the scene in SpiralSpy, and then brought the image over to GIMP and edited the image to make it as realistic and non-pixelated as I possibly could. It only takes a little bit of thought to turn an average model into a rather spectacular picture.

And with that, I say thank you, Spiral-Spy, for providing us with this tool. For me, this was a great tool to experiment with artwork wise, and for others it has been helpful in their own ways. Shame we cannot use this to post images to replace in-game screenshots on the Wiki, but I won't challenge the almighty powers :3

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 00:34

#16

Vagueabond

Yeah, beating a dead horse,

Yeah, beating a dead horse, bud.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 07:22

#17

Deruku

@Vagueabond

It was already theoretical to begin with. If the big OOO bossus don't want to use Spiral-Spy, it's fair enough. In the end it would be really a problem to watch who uploads what with it if tutorials aren't made for watching the templates, and it would be a hard time for one person to approve the pictures.

So instead of just saying this thing's dead, that's a sweet picture Scarred-Knight xP

Wed, 11/16/2011 - 08:40

#18

Bulby

Ok but.....

@Equinox

Alright, I understand that I can't use non-in-game images for the wiki, but can I use them on my user page and/or guild page?

Thanks,

-Bulby

_____Edit_________________

Here's what I had in mind.

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa460/CaptainCool537/ZekielvsMechakn...

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 10:50

#19

Jim-Dale

JIM DALE CHALLENGES THIS

JIM DALE CHALLENGES THIS RULE!

Right now, the image quality of the Wiki is terrible. This is mainly due to all screenshots having to come from in-game.

Let's play a game called Spy-ify! This is where Jim Dale will show you how images on the wiki could be improved by Spiral-Spy usage.

Here is an example if a screenshot of content from in-game. "Does that bomb and shield come with it?" says the New User.

Here is the same set Spy-ified!

Here is the Soul Jelly. A very rare monster which is very camera shy. Few opportunities to get a good picture.

Here is the Wiki's Screenshot.

Here is the Soul Jelly, Spy-ified! Those sexy details. Jim Dale could even animate this if he felt like it. HE DID. Jim Dale can only note a usage of this on a Minecraft Wiki page. There are Minecraft spoilers in that link if you are sensitive to unreasonable things.

Here is Jim Dale's good friend Dogrock's "Make knights spin in place" project:

He tries so hard. The quality is ruined by that noisy background.

The worst of all is of Not-Jim-Dale-Oceanus. When will the opportunity to retake this ever come again?

Here is Jim Dale version of the project. JIM DALE HAS WISDOM OF THE SPIN!

Bob-Ross-Jim-Dale also presents THE ANIMATION OF PERSONAL COLORS! This shows an item set in every single* personal color. Jim Dale admits this may not be useable due to the nature of 256 colors.

*Except that one.

Jim Dale sees into the future. A not-Jim-Dale says, "The idle pose is boring!" Not-Jim-Dale is correct. The poses of the Knights can be altered in Spiral Spy as seen by fan artwork. Jim Dale is not good at art (but Jim Dale has lots of fans). The Team Fortress 2 Wiki solves this by having images of HATS for their respected pages displayed alongside a mercenary's pose. Examples here, here, and here.

Jim Dale's point is that images make up a Wiki as much as the text does. If Jim Dale did Magic Tricks, do his words make up for a bad act? No. If Spiral Spy is used in the wiki, big changes could be on the horizon for the better. A wiki that is officially sponsored by the game should not be as low quality as a badly made fansite.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 02:47

#20

Mejezfeld

Better idea

Hey Devs, why don't you use YOUR model viewer to provide us with some clear images of various things? That way there'll be no chance anyone's gonna find out about the [insert as-of-yet-unseen-ingame content of your choice roflmao] unless it's by your command, and we'd get the clear and nonshoddy images of things that an official wiki needs in order to be official.

Or at least, if anyone does, it'd be your mistake alone! *unhinged-sounding cackling*

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 14:30

#21

Baby-Brush

Well..............

As someone who came off the World of warcraft train seeing how WoWhead used the same frame base to make their 3d rotatable to show armour icons i think it would be good not to neccecarily "REPLACE" the pictures but a an icon that lets you open up the icon with the object would be AMAZING!!!!!!

Wed, 01/18/2012 - 11:33

#22

Bulby

BUMP!

I would REALLY like an answer to my question.

Can I use fan art, i.e. spiral-spy pics, on my userpage and or guildpage?

If not, then please review some of the existing userpages because they are loaded with them. Almost every guildpage has fanart of some sort.

Thank you,

-Bulby

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 09:36

#23

Jim-Dale

Jim Dale demands a response.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 11:54

#24

Jamoo

Not-Jim-Dale agrees with

Not-Jim-Dale agrees with Jim-Dale

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 10:09

#25

Lexouduck

bump

I want to bump this because i can.

Also, it's not like the models seen in Spyral-Spy don't look like themselves in-game.
The shaders, lighting effects and such are almost perfectly represented like in the game, to the credit of the author of Spyral-Spy.

This image of the Leviathan Blade is just an example, but this type of image and format would be perfect for the wiki :)
http://i.imgur.com/gY2cP.png

I didn't read most of the thread, so I may be just saying things that have already been said...

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 10:52

#26

Autofire

Hm, well, what about if I

Hm, well, what about if I make a picture of my self on my SK wiki talk page? I could set it up from any angle, in any pose, and in any armor. (Although I'll stick with my current equipment, except turn my Wyvern Scail mail into Dragon.)

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 16:32

#27

Earthboundimmortal

Um...

Why does spiral-spy not have any cutter, avenger, troika, aura, armor accesories, and many shields, bosses, enemies/

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 19:16

#28

Trying

It's all in there. You just arent looking in the right places.

Tue, 05/08/2012 - 02:43

#29

Softhead

-_-

You know the play spiral knights bution?

Click that log in, then wait for the download to complete. The RSrc folder will then fill.

Search

Is this helpful? (discussion on Spyral-Spy and the wiki)