A Troika Family Update
Mi, 04/22/2015 - 11:34
A Troika Family Update
I'd like to see these swords used more. They hit hard and are fun to use. But spiral knights doesn't really give a lot of benefit to using these swords over other swords, especially the well-loved brandish family. Sure they might deal more damage per hit in some situations, but the dps? Or the efficient use of them? Not so good. Let's buff the Troika family a bit so using them is a question of swordie style preference instead of raw dps. I'll also add a few new members to the Troika line for this idea.
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Gameplay:
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Attack speed of the sword could be greatly increased. Instead of taking forever to swing, your knight will hit hard and fast with the current attack patterns, then your knight pants and slows down for a few moments to recover from using such a large weapon this way. An actual uniform MSD and ASD penalty of 2-3 seconds could show up in your HUD if you execute the second swing, with a ~25% chance of that occurring with just the first swing. This allows strategic use of a heavy sword, instead of it just being...an unfavorable slug. I mean some of these blades are named after dances, but I do not feel like I'm dancing with these, more like hefting a log and dying in the process. Of course, MSI and ASI boosts in your loadout will prevent your knight from becoming too vulnerable after attacking (knockback provides some leeway), as well as aid the initial offense.
Chance to inflict status on charge hit increased to be similar to that of the brandish, with enemies closer to the point of impact more likely to be inflicted. Knockback effects remain unchanged. The swords have a chance to stun the user immediately after the sword impacts. Any amount of stun resistance negates this possibility - even one low uv. Shattering your arm is just something that wielders of the sword have to be wary of. I mean really, knights insist on using just one hand, I feel like this is at least somewhat accurate.
EDIT from feedback: or just simply buff damage, charge time, and attack speed to make the sword "worth it" without complicated mechanics. Add a bit more knockback for regular attacks/charge attack.
EDIT from feedback: once the knight starts the attack, the attack is only able to be interrupted by shock stutters.
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Aesthetics:
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All members of the troika line will seem to make your knight "heavier" in that they will add a small, aesthetically pleasing trail of "footprints" if you have it out while you move. These effects only show up on high graphics (if that's manageable, idk, I'm not a scripter) in case you want to play without the lagging effects some trailing entities have. The effects are more noticeable as a trail, but they will show up under your feet somewhat even if you stand still. In non combat areas, the trail will show up if you have the weapon in the first weapon slot (vs in combat areas, it has to be "out."). The trail patterns/distance/duration are extremely similar to the Dreadful Aura, but with "deeper" cracks. Double that aura up yo. More details on the different trail types below.
I'd like to see more swords added to the family to further encourage knights to "check them out" and have fun with them. Here's a list of family lines and their names:
Existing swords:
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Troika: the root of these mighty swords. Leaves a sprouting trail of mossy cracks, like a minor blossom aura. The rest of the line up to suda has deeper and deeper floor cracks, with the suda leaving glowing cracks that seem to be filled with sunlight.
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Triglav line: same crack pattern, but glowing veins of ice instead. More snowflakes appear upwards from the cracks with higher star levels.
New swords:
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Fire:
Troika > Fjalarr > Vigrid > Surtr
The 3* is crimson with black decorations, the 4* is black with glowing red decorations, and the 5* consists of dark red magma-like light within charred black shards. It drips lava occasionally. The charge attack of the 5* causes a miniature volcanic eruption. The trailing effect is of course cracks filled with magma. The name line references a prophesied build-up to a fiery Nordic giant's fight with established gods.
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Shock:
Troika > ??? > ??? > Gram (the third troika)
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Other Status:
Troika > ??? > ??? > ???
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You guys have fun with acquisition, balance, names, and aesthetics.
Mi, 04/22/2015 - 13:04
#2
hmm..
I say these weapons need better knock back on the second sweep so as to clear a whole crowd of enemies that are crowding the and also for the player to receive no flinching while in the middle of an attack.
Mi, 04/22/2015 - 14:29
#3
I don't need anything complicated for the Troika, I would like to have the reliability of knowing that when I choose to attack, I won't get interrupted by damage. (like Blandaxt's second point)
I don't agree with the quick ASI, then a speed debuff. I'd keep the same ASI and buff damage.
I also don't agree with self-stun on the second swing. You have not made the second swing powerful enough to warrant such a change.
Error: You mention "MSD and ASI" boosts, which make no sense because one is a buff and one is a negative buff.
With regards to content of ^ I would personally prefer if it had some reverse scaling, thus MSD and ASD increasing the effectiveness of Troika.
The footstep thing would be a little interesting, but I wouldn't care for it much. (except to occasionally bring a Troika around for mossy steps).
Instead of making a Fire Troika and Shock Troika, I'd prefer if they made a non-status Troika that did greater damage.
Mi, 04/22/2015 - 14:56
#4
Thanks for feedback
It's easy to just buff damage, but I find that boring, personally. I like to have something to worry about instead of just mowing the lawn. Of...monsters. But it also has to be "worth it." I thought about buffing it, or even giving it a chance to "crit" or "1hko" (that charge just kinda looks extremely painful to get hit by and wouldn't factor into PvP) - but that's a gameplay mechanic that warrants more discussion elsewhere, not just on a couple of new swords.
Holy-Nightmare says:
"The troika lines are built around movement inhibiting status so Fire wouldn't fit and the Gram is only for GMs."
This statement makes no sense. Other weapon lines (flourish family, several bomb families, many others) have status possibilities that don't "fit" a uniform/particular strategy. I see fire (as magma/lava) fitting in perfectly with these swords considering that volcanoes can be powerful, huge mountains, and several of the existing swords are named after mountains - hence the design. I stuck with Nordic mythos naming for this heated family line. If you really want things to not move, kill them dead with fire. That's a good way. Sure, SK's fire status doesn't immobilize...but this just shouldn't be a limiting factor for creation, cause the game really doesn't do that. Regarding the gram...sure, gram is only for GMs now, but where does it say that it's only for them forever? OOO could easily release it for players and make a lot of profit. Plenty of players want it too (and have suggested its release), this is just a way to get it into the game without being too gimmicky.
Qwez: yes, fixed the typo. So, you just want a higher damage sudaruska without stun? How would you design it (colors etc.)?
Mi, 04/22/2015 - 16:10
#5
A thought
I'm gonna steal a concept from League of Legends for a moment; Attack completion speed. Which is to say, what if a greatsword still took a long time to swing, with the swings-per-second/damage-per-second being effectively the same, but the damaging effect triggered sooner?
My apologies if this is a weird concept to explain. Say, the Troika swing animation currently takes 4 ticks to complete, with the damage occurring at roughly 3 ticks. What if, instead, the animation still takes those 4 ticks, but the damage occurs at 2 ticks? (The attacks-per-second remains roughly the same, but the attack "completes" faster.)
Mi, 04/22/2015 - 17:58
#6
My... addon?
I agree with Likal with the damage being executed faster without the animation being any faster, but the thing with that is thag people still wont use it cuz recover speed. Whiich is another problem. Which is why I'm budding in :D
You should still make ASI, but make the ticks as Likal explained to 3.5. That way, its actually realistic and its more usable, as it can probably do abit lower as the avenger but with less.... swiftness? and more.... WEIGHT (fat xD). Than with more knockback, its the defensive weapon.
-Nert
Mi, 04/22/2015 - 20:58
#7
Welp.
The main reason why alot of people tend to choose the Sealed Sword line over the Troika line is primarily because of the difference of speed at first, and later on because of split damage/DPS.
The Troika doesn't need a massive revamp or a crazy new buff/debuff mechanic. It simply needs to be polished up and balanced so it stands up to what there's already in the game. Fixing the speed to match that of every other heavy sword and giving it a minor buff all around would do it well. A very good example on this would be Iron Slug; it was a mediocre weapon, and we all know why. A good polish on the charge and some minor tweaks, and now it's one of the best all-around guns in the game, without having to add any over-the-top changes to the mechanics of the gun.
You also need to understand that the Troika line is meant to be used defensively, and like seemingly alot of people in the game, they would rather build their arsenal for offense instead. Very few people know how to use Troikas effectively (as the game currently stands), but they are effective when you do use them right.
Overall, I think the MSD/ASD idea seems a little over the top; the sword doesn't warrant a special mechanic, a status, or the rate of infliction worthy enough to self-inflict the player with the given status either, however I'm all up for buffing the rate of infliction as how they are, since only one line of them inflicts the status on the second swing and the charge attack doesn't apply the status so often as to be able to predict/count on it.
Defintively a +1 on the aesthetics and additions to the line, too. Nice job on the post!
Mi, 04/22/2015 - 23:17
#8
@Dracora:
I don't have an idea of how to design it other than having no flashy effect, and just glowing some color (probably white)
Troikas need a damage buff because their current damage doesn't quite necessitate their slow swing speeds.
If OOO increased the swing speed, or increased "attack completion" then I would be disappointed. I like having my truly heavy swords (FoV, Triglav), and making the Troika to Sealed Sword as Winmillion is to Brandish/Calibur would be... I wouldn't like it (increased attack completion speed is like what the Winmillion has, it combos about as fast as a Calibur, but swings as fast as a Flourish).
@Gyrruss
I would not like Troikas to be buffed to the extent of how Magnuses have been buffed. That's a stupidly overpowered buff for PvE. It made the Magnus like a Brandish. The gun did get some major overhaul. It used to be a mediocre single-target weapon for precision interruption, but now it's just kill everything on the charge... and you can walk absurdly fast compared to before (and Iron Slug can stun too...), but you think those were minor tweaks...
In all honesty, I am okay with how the Troika is at the moment. I play with damage boost Med or VH when using my Triglav(and FoV), and they feel well balanced enough for me (when I use conventional weaponry, I usually have CTR instead of DB, so using boost for Triglav and FoV makes it feel like it deals decent enough damage).
Do, 04/23/2015 - 15:44
#9
i think..
I feel the troika needs a definite buff for it to represent heavy weapons. Right now the brandish charge takes way more damage out of monsters then the troikas charge. If this heavy weapon is suppose to represent heavy hits which are suppose to be damaging, then a buff in it's attack or a technical effect that it can inflict on enemies like stagger which could hold the enemies in position for half a second is what i feel would fit the weapon perfectly. well that's my though on how to balance out the troika. Besides what i mention on my last post, adding these abilities together would definetly make this weapon worth while.
Do, 04/23/2015 - 08:44
#10
.....
@ Dracora
The Troika recipe belongs to Izola. The Guardian Vendor in the Hall of Heroes. Her weapons are (were centered) around keeping your party safe. The heavy knockback on her swords and the status they dealt were ideal for keeping enemies slow or immobile, even the guns she had were built to quickly flinch enemies at a distance. Even before the Gunner update I loved running about with a Callahan just because I could save a teammate from a thwacker with a well aimed shot (flinching the enemy in one shot). Even with the GU the magnus family of guns still have that class of statuses. It would make sense that a new troika would follow suit be helping keep enemies at bay, in SK fire doesn't have that ability. In fact fire is technically the most offensive ability dealing the highest status DPS across all enemies that aren't immune.
If the Gram was released for the players (without a troika buff) I don't think it would be all that popular. Sure you'd craft it just to have a weapon that used to be GM only but would you use it? To date I have seen hardly any Scissor blades, Celestial Sabers, Slime node walls, etc. Why? Because they aren't that useful compared to other gear.... why use a Celestial Saber if your Acheron does far more damage.
@ Aboves
Troika weapons are made to control the enemies and work best in groups in which control is important. Vortexes, bombs, and tortoguns greatly appreciate a smart player that will throw enemies into their attacks. A boost in speed to match up with the Sealed sword lines would make them more useful in these situations.
Do, 04/23/2015 - 12:53
#11
Hm.
@Qwez:
Neither would I, honestly, but it was only a comparison example on how an item that was long-forgotten can be polished up to be something better. I consider those tweaks to be "small "because some of them were only specific to the Magnus like while another part was a global tweak to all guns. But that's for another thread. :P
@Thread
But yeah, Troikas are fine as what they are, they should remain defensive-type weapons since that's what they're meant to be; but I'd like to see their two swings buffed up a small bit so they can keep up with the community's growing hunger for damage numbers and/or sanic speeds. The charge attack should be left untouched imo, since it's still one of the most powerful (melee) ones in the game.
Do, 04/23/2015 - 13:33
#12
Shock troika would wreck PvP
Pretty sure a shock troika would become the go-to charge spamming for players in PvP. Landing troika charges is already so rewarding, having both hits land and also shock your target would feel super cool.
However I am in agreement with this thread - troikas do not need to be re-imagined. A few things here and there would be helpful, such as a slightly faster swing rate (or more rapid hitting. Trying to attack and not attacking is annyoing). Alternatively, having the attack be unable to be canceled via damage would be a good enough buff in of itself. You can now play even more defensively (hitting enemies back) and if you get swarmed then you attack twice and enemies are no longer surrounding you.
Di, 04/28/2015 - 22:22
#13
A long-due compliment to the Volcanic Plate set, as it were.
I personally would prefer the Fire-themed line to be named after actual volcanoes, as the Freeze-themed line draws inspiration from snowy peaks. I sought some names that are easier on the tongue while remaining reminiscent of volcanic happenings:
-Stromboli for 3*
-Atlasova for 4*
-Vesuvius for 5*
As for the footstep aesthetic, I do not believe the swords warrant this effect, as it may cause complications by overlapping or simultaneously stacking onto an existing aspect of a knight that already enables footstep effects.
Other than that, the suggestion is excellently put together. Super armor on Troika swings definitely sounds like a thing of unprecedented beauty, but the Plate armor sets would desperately benefit from this more.
Mi, 04/29/2015 - 13:11
#14
A Queen of Stun's Two Cents...
Hai there... I've Been Playing with the Suda for a Long time.... sooooo very, very long. I think I might have a ...few things to say on the matter.
I don't think that the Troika Lines need any ASI increases, as I think that their Slowness is part of their Character. But, It does need something to make it Worth While to Use.
First off, Fixing the Charge attack. They Brought Out a Better Charge attack (Back in the Day), It was Broke. Instead of the Impact point exploding, YOU DID. Which was Hilarious. Then They tried to Fix it. Which only Fixed the Second Wave of Damage. The First one is still you. Exploding, I guess. So, Fix that.
Secondly, The Main Attacks have a Visual Misrepresentation. You can't actually Hit to the Side as easily as the Animation says. It's Worse on the second Swing. Making Both Hits Feel Wider would Help with it's Zoning Potential. Also, Stun on second hit of Suda-Line, Please.
Those quality of Life improvements and Bugfixes would be appreciated. Now, On to some Fixes...
-Damage Increase + All Damage Resist + HP. This Would Probably Be the easiest to Code, as all you gotta do is slap some stats, and Shimmy some Numbers.
-"Super Armor" + Resists sounds just about Right for the Massive Hunks of Stone/Metals. One of the Most Irritating things is that When swinging a Mountain-on-a-Tree, Something Stubs your Toe and yoU INSTANTLY RECOIL IN FEAR. Resists because you Know you're gonna get hit, so mitigate the damage.
-My Favorite Solution, however, Is to Grant both Variations of the ROCK unique features that match the Lore. Assuming the "Super Armor" is in place, Make the Window for a Second attack super long on the Suda-Side. This would allow you to re-position between strikes. It's Better for Zoning, and Feels like a Dance. (Try Charge Canceling into a second Attack with slower Speed to see what it's Like.) As for the Grintovec Line, forcing Flinching against all but bosses and Trees would Prevent alot of Mob retaliation. After all, Crowd Control is best served... Cold?
Anywho, those are Just my opinions, and I've never been too confidant in the application of the suggestions box. Oh well.
~Tsu
Mi, 04/29/2015 - 13:48
#15
@ Tsubasa
A wider range on the swing as a tradeoff for not having as much ASI as the SS lines would be a greatly appreciated change, this would be especially helpful for those not using AT.
Status on the second swing would be lovely and would really help Suda in it's role as a mob control weapon. Flinch resist on the second swing would also be greatly appreciated and would make this weapon a truly viable choice in LD.
Do, 05/14/2015 - 03:05
#16
@Melonfish
Haha, Mount Vesuvius, I get it.
The Problem with Troika lines is that they are normal damage weapons and are slow. With flourishes and brandishes offering immediate and high damage and SS lines being faster and just as hard hitting there is little reason for players to get any troika.
They need both a speed and CTR buff. These weapons should swing faster and charge really fast, this quick charge would allow party guardians to quickly get in powerful stun/freeze hits.
The troika lines are built around movement inhibiting status so Fire wouldn't fit and the Gram is only for GMs.