Energy Market

16 respuestas [Último envío]
Random-Remark

I rarely spend energy, and I try to avoid selling energy in the market when I see the 100x wall. That said, I know I have a lot of people on my friends list that grind crowns to buy energy. I feel like I want to boycott the energy market, and be able to sell energy at a low price to people I know aren't going to resell it.

I would like an option in the marketplace to post private sell offers or buy offers filtered through my friend or guild list. I can see how posting private offers could give wealthy players even more power over new f2p players, and maybe cause the marketplace to become compartmentalized. I'd like to at least see/search the names of people posting offers, and be able to select the buy offer I want to sell my energy to, instead of being forced to sell to whoever has the highest buy offer.

I'm going to shell out the money for an energy well, but that only partially solves my problem, since the people I want to help generally aren't in the same guild as me.

Imagen de Dibsville
Dibsville

+1
+1
+1
+111111111111111

Imagen de Fangel
Fangel
Interesting take on it

I feel kind of jaded in using the energy market as well when there are x100 offers in any places - makes it a store, not a market. What you want to do is have an easier way to trade energy to people who need it without being online... Which is fine in itself but not as needed.

Personally I think energy market issues could be solved by making players only able to have 10 buy and 10 sell offers active at the same time (20 offers tops). Makes market manipulation a chore rather than something you can easily just do, and makes creating walls something you have to actively do and be in the game for instead of logging on and setting a new price wall whenever you feel.

A private "seller" list might work though. Similarly a private "auction house" could serve a similar purpose - have those offers outlined in green rather than the featured auction's sky blue.
Both of these things are kinda circumvented by just trading those people, as you're supposed to be talking with them anyways so it's not something that we desperately need - unlike the auction house back in the day. However it's something new, and something that would prove its worth over time.

Imagen de Petater
Petater
-1

Fixing the symptoms and not the cause.

Make depo and AH sales regular, at once a month or two intervals. Add promo boxes for CE during the sale, in addition to other items. Also add UV tickets in there for discount in AH featured and depo. If you have regularly timed sinks for CE & CR, you won't have market speculation and you'll be encouraging people to save for the market cash out when these sales occur.

Also these once every month or two sales can be SEEN as a form of login reward for hardcore players. It'll help people log in at least once a month or so to make sure they don't miss out on goodies.

Imagen de Deleted-Knight
Deleted-Knight
FYI

Petater is one of the people that make the price walls on the energy market. He has a vested interest in preventing people from bypassing it.

Imagen de Petater
Petater

I'd lower my walls in price if OOO's macroeconomic trends weren't screwed up. I raise it when people try to lock out the market, as I make profit on the delta of buy and sell prices.

Random-Remark
I'm aware that the prices

I'm aware that the prices would inflate anyway, but changing promo boxes doesn't at all affect the problem I need to work around.

I don't think it's possible to keep newbies from being scammed by people with more resources than them, but at least if the market wasn't anonymous people could choose who they do business with. The people who can buy prize boxes every month aren't being screwed over by the energy market anyway, they can just buy it themselves and bypass it.

I don't like the idea of private lists entirely, because it seems like it would divide up the already small community into factions and make the game seem more empty than it already does. Since I already ignore the energy market, along with most people I know, it does seem like there is a need not being filled here. I'd settle for an option to send friends/guildies offline trade offers through the mail.

Imagen de Cheshireccat
Cheshireccat
I have an alternate suggestion.

Dr. Chesh has written prescriptions for both long-term and short-term relief of the following Petater-induced symptoms:

  • stress
  • depression
  • ragequit
  • body hair (in places where there was none before)
  • funny feelings around members of the opposite gender
  • back problems from carrying around too much Cr/CE
  • sense of poverty from not being able to afford CE
    http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/109621

    Please +1
    --Dr. Cheshire C. Cat, MD :)

  • Imagen de Petater
    Petater
    +1

    Oh please, I wouldn't have my walls around if people weren't hiding their own CR/CE imbalance. I simply was shooting for equilibrium and being able to margin off delta. I keep my walls up because there's others who will lock out buying if I don't price it high. I also kept it high so other marketers trolling it with repeated much smaller quantities run out of cr so the price can crash.

    That being said SK does need a reason to spend on CR again to bring said equilibrium down.

    But seriously, you're slow here. We needed a CR sink again back in July.

    Imagen de Hexzyle
    Hexzyle
    Imagen de Deleted-Knight
    Deleted-Knight

    To be fair, Petater is just being a good business man. Monopolizing the energy market is a very easy way to make money.

    Analogy:
    OOO is the sole producer of a rare fruit that many people like to eat. However, OOO is located on a remote island and does not ship the fruit themselves. Only people who pay a special fare can travel to the island to buy the fruit. People who buy the fruit have the option of reselling it, at a high price, to those who cannot or would rather not travel to the island themselves.
    Simple supply-demand stabilizes the the prices. When not enough people are traveling to the island, the price of the fruit goes up, increasing incentive for people to buy more of the fruit when they are on the island (or for more people to travel to the island).

    Along comes someone like Petater, call him Tamatar. Tamatar may or may not have access to the island. However, Tamatar definitely has a lot of money. Tamatar notices that there are a lot of transactions involving this tasty fruit. Instead of going to the island himself to join the business, he decided to become the middle man instead.
    Tamatar stands by the dock every day, offering to buy the fruits at prices significantly higher than the average market price. Whenever someone returns from the island, they eagerly sell any fruit they don't want to keep to Tamatar. Tamatar ships these fruits to his personal warehouse.
    Because Tamatar is buying out a large majority of the fruits, this reduces the supply available to the rest of the population. So prices go up. Tamatar imposed an artificial choke on the fruit supply, causing demand to build and market price to go up. When the price is sufficiently high, Tamatar opens up his warehouse and sells the fruits at a competitive price, but a price still higher than the ones he paid. With the money he got back, Tamatar can repeat the process.

    This isn't a problem since all the fruits Tamatar bought out still ended up being sold right? In theory, yes. However, the fruits are now being sold at higher prices than they used to be, despite the supply and demand being the same. Tamatar is effectively taxing people for buying the fruit because they do not have the money to compete with him. This screws over low-income people more than well-off people.

    To mitigate this problem, OOO is effectively advertising trips to the island. This makes sense because if more people travel to the island, there would be more supply and OOO would make more money. Any other method would risk angering the people who are already buying the fruits from the island. The huge gaping hole in this solution is that most people would rather not eat the fruit than pay for the trip to the island. It's simply not worth it.

    Imagen de Bonjourhippo
    Bonjourhippo
    Mkay apologies but I gotta

    Mkay apologies but I gotta step in and set a couple things straight here.
    On profiting on the energy market. Let's just bust the myth here, it's profitable, yes, but there are far better profits to be made out there; in fact I'd say market fiddling ranks about as low in terms of profit as materials reselling, I'll explain why, trust the hippo here.
    A typical profit margin on a CE transaction is 200cr; it's just the average when you know how to buy your CE smartly. The concept is simple : buy your CE using the "Sell crowns" feature, sell your CE using the "Sell CE" tab. If done through the market usually you're looking at 100cr profit per 100ce. Fiddle a bit with when to buy and when to sell your CE, you'll probably stretch your profit to the 200-300cr profit per 100ce area. Needless to say, it's crap.

    So let's assume the highest profit, 300cr.
    300cr..
    ...

    Now let's say 15k CE pure profit a week is good; it's what a respectable merch should aim for.
    That's around 1.35m cr, which means 4500 market purchases and 4500 market sales (450k CE). Do I really need to say anymore here?
    Investing 450k CE for a mere 15k CE return is just a waste; not only does market come with no guarantees due to competition, it also requires constant attention and some mad bulk mail accept & delete skills. That takes time and we're talking best profit conditions, 300cr per trade. Meh.

    I quite simply don't understand what all the fuss is with market merching; it's not that good. The player(s) building huge buy walls are just loaded with crowns and trying to get rid, that's all; rarely do we ever see equivalent "Sell CE" walls, so I just can't imagine there being someone sitting with 450k CE thinking of no better way to profit than spending hours opening emails from the market, as well as watching it. MEH.

    If you want to profit, just stick to the essentials: buy some highly valuable, highly demanded items cheaply, resell them not so cheaply, say average price. That will put your money to much better use than some ridiculous 3% benefit over your investment; hell in some cases profits from reselling these items go well over the 70% mark.

    Imagen de Deleted-Knight
    Deleted-Knight
    Bonjourhippo, Investing 450k

    Bonjourhippo,

    Investing 450k CE for a mere 15k CE return is just a waste
    15k CE can buy some pretty things. That's after one single iteration. It's also 15k CE that's taken off the market until you see fit to sell.

    not only does market come with no guarantees due to competition
    Competition from who? There's only a few people that do this, but it's enough to make life difficult for many others.

    The player(s) building huge buy walls are just loaded with crowns and trying to get rid, that's all; rarely do we ever see equivalent "Sell CE" walls
    Um...what universe are you playing in? I see sell walls all the time.
    People who want to get rid of crowns will post outrageous buy prices, and the market will actually plummet as a result. Once, someone bought out all the CE up to 11,000. But that occurred during a time when few people are online and the sell walls were taken down.

    so I just can't imagine there being someone sitting with 450k CE thinking of no better way to profit than spending hours opening emails from the market, as well as watching it. MEH.
    People AFK in haven, managing the energy exchange and the Auction house. Transactions aren't delivered as mail if you are logged in. It's a LOT less work than going into the clockworks, where you actually have to interact with the game constantly to earn money.
    Most people probably just stay logged in all day, while doing other things irl. They only check in periodically to update their offers.

    If you want to profit, just stick to the essentials: buy some highly valuable, highly demanded items cheaply, resell them not so cheaply, say average price. That will put your money to much better use than some ridiculous 3% benefit over your investment; hell in some cases profits from reselling these items go well over the 70% mark.
    Item markets are not as well quantified. There's a risk factor that a once popular item will go out of demand. There's also a need to do a lot of heavy advertisement. Also, there's nothing stopping people from doing both. When they need the extra money, they just take down some CE offers.

    Imagen de Bonjourhippo
    Bonjourhippo
    Let's remember 15k CE isn't

    Let's remember 15k CE isn't the profit that's actually made by players, it's a profit I find normal for a merch to aim for. That might not be what's being earned weekly by fiddlers, at all. Also the 15k CE profit made is made in crowns, not energy. It would take an additional buying CE step to turn that into CE that wouldn't be used. I'm just putting things into perspective here, it's not that good a method. Opening 4k mails takes a long time too, not even mentioning the fact that the client crashes pretty easily if you have over 200 mails either. Leaving the client opened all the time sounds possible, but what a hassle! I can't imagine players would actually do that. Merches typically go for the best profit.
    It just sounds like a lot of hassle, purely in terms of making your money work, it's a weak method that requires an insane initial amount. Sure some people might be doing it, but if they were smarter, they could turn that 450k CE into much more money.

    As for the competition on market offers, it is there, especially at peak times. It's very hard to list a "Sell CR" offer that stays on top of the list, especially with the market showing live the evolution of offers.

    Does this kind of merching really raise prices? It looks to me like people trying to prevent this kind of merching are the ones raising the prices, by reducing the gap between Sell CR and Sell CE offers, prompting CE sellers to just bump their prices a bit. There's always been a gap between these 2 and the first reflex of any CE seller when the gap reduces is to relist offers to put the gap back to normal.
    Buying and selling CE on the market keeps it flowing; cant' say the same about attempting to break the gap between offers.

    Imagen de Deleted-Knight
    Deleted-Knight

    You seem to miss the fact that Petater openly admits he does this. He just claims it's not harmful.
    The point is not about how much the merch makes, it's about how much the merch takes from the supply. In your hypothetical, the merch ends in the crown stage. A wiser merch will stockpile energy instead. Why? Because energy prices tend to rise, it is a better way to store your wealth.

    As for the competition on market offers, it is there, especially at peak times. It's very hard to list a "Sell CR" offer that stays on top of the list, especially with the market showing live the evolution of offers.
    You don't need to be on top, you just need to be high enough such that anybody paying more than you will drive the "sell energy" prices up.

    Let's say the lowest sell price is 8000. Like you said, the equilibrium always insures a slightly lower buy price, equal to 98% of 8000, or 7840.
    So the merch puts up a buy wall for around 7840. Now if someone offers more than that, their offer will be taken quickly. If a lot of people offer more than that, the sellers will get smart and bump their prices up, to say 8100. At that point, the merch just has to bump their wall up a bit to 7939. Eventually, the other people will run out of money to compete and the wall will float to the top.
    What usually happens is that there is a sell wall along with the buy wall. The buy wall keeps bumping up the offer prices until it violates the 2% difference with all prices under the sell wall.

    Buying and selling CE on the market keeps it flowing
    A flowing market doesn't mean a healthy market.
    In the stock market, buying and selling shares are good because it promotes investment into companies. Those companies can create money in the form of goods and services.
    The SK market is more like buying and selling gold. If people actually bought gold for the sake of using it, that's great! But people are buying large amounts of gold just so they can sell it later for more money. This wouldn't be a problem if gold wasn't so rare, but it is. So the price of gold inflates.

    Imagen de Bonjourhippo
    Bonjourhippo
    The raise in CE price has

    The raise in CE price has always had to do with significant changes in either game mechanics or game population. Merching CE will only creates -/+ 2% gaps or so. Examples of the said mechanics change:
    - Introduction of unbinding and variants rolling (introducing equipment trade, CR can now also supply variants, as opposed to variants only)
    - Introduction of missions (Vanaduke farming gone even crazier, and faster)
    - Introduction of flash sales AND disappearance of ultra rare featured auctions (Prismatic Halos going for 6m cr, no more!)
    - Unlinking promotion boxes and energy purchases (no comment)
    Prices changed then because these update completely changed the way we either get or use crowns. That's still to this day the main factor for any change in CE price trends, not some petty market merch'.

    Right now the game is at an all time low in vanguards; quitting sales are everywhere, old players are getting replaced with new ones. Every player leaving is less CE available on the market, every quitting sale sinks some CE in unbinding fees.
    Price has barely changed in 3 monthes; barely changed in over a year even, in fact if anything the ups and down reflected the in-game population and their regained interest in the game, not some random dudes buying and selling 30 hours a week to make their 5k CE profit.

    Following that wall logic of yours the price should be up in the tens of thousands by now; the only times it's ever been that high (or higher) were during specific times of the day where practically no one was online or worst case scenario someone found an infinite crown glitch and played a prank on the community (happened twice). If players nowadays aren't compelled to sell their CE quickly (hence cheaply) it's only because there's nothing worth sinking tons of crowns on anymore.

    Anything said about manipulating the CE prices to raise is ALSO TRUE to lower them, and that's what's always kept things in balance.

    Imagen de Deleted-Knight
    Deleted-Knight

    We may be talking past each other.
    What you are saying is true. Supply is partially dictated by how many people actually buy CE from OOO and how much of the CE they wish to sell. However, it is also dictated by how much is actually delivered to the general public. When merchants take a larger portion out, a larger portion of the general demand is left unsatisfied.

    Price has barely changed in 3 months
    Define barely.
    Inflation is responsible for the increase to 8k and 6k from 3 years ago. Inflation is not responsible for the 8k to 10k cycle that happens every few months. It could be that energy owners periodically "lose and gain interest in the game", as you say it. I think it's more likely that once the prices get too high, consumers lose interest, and the merchs have to let the price come down because they won't make money without enough consumers.

    I think everyone has already accepted that 6k energy prices is no longer a reasonable expectation. Instead, people are complaining about prices rising quickly after every time it falls. This is caused by the dwindling supply, but greatly exacerbated by those who take large amounts of energy out of the market and re-introduce them at higher prices.

    Coming back to the topic of the thread...
    I think the current structure of the market is bad. Offers for buy and sell should be private. The game would secretly connects buyers with sellers but transactions shouldn't be made public. There's no reason to give a "reference price" because people will naturally increase or decrease their offers if they don't get their goods fast enough.
    This would make it hard for people to game the market, but still allow them to conduct trades on a global scale.