Which Flourish To Pick?
Di, 07/19/2011 - 21:47
Since all of my least favorite enemies are weak to Piercing (i.e. bats, Trojans, etc.), I've decided to pick up a Flourish. After checking out the Wiki, it seems the Final Flourish is the weakest choice, as it offers nothing more than damage. The Furious Flamberge provides Fire status, and the Fearless Rigadoon causes Stun. Obviously, my choice is between the last two. Most enemies attacked with a Flourish (ones weak to Pierce, that is) die rather quickly so I'm thinking Rigadoon is the best choice. Thoughts?
Also, is the Barbarous Thorn Blade any good? If so, is it better than the Flourish line?
Thanks,
-Tri
Di, 07/19/2011 - 22:06
#2
Let's start with the fact
Let's start with the fact that Kats and Slags are not weak against piercing. As far as Fearless Rigadoon and Furious Flamberge causing status effect, thats only charge attack right? If Final Flourish has a better damaging charge attack, would you still want Rigadoon or Flamberge? Might want to ask yourself those question before you decide you don't want Final Flourish.
Di, 07/19/2011 - 22:07
#3
Snarble Barb
I like the charge attack on the snarble barb line better than the flourish, not that I use it often, but for the rare occasions it's better for me.
Also, the fire from my fierce flamberge certainly makes up for the slightly more weak stabs compared to the flourish.
I'm personally working on the snarble barb line and the flamberge line. There's no reason to limit yourself to only one.
Di, 07/19/2011 - 22:12
#4
Sometimes pure damage is
Sometimes pure damage is better than status effects. The Flourish line (not the Swift Flourish line) has a slight chance of causing status effects so probably by the time you inflict it, they are already dead. I also like Snarble Barb line more than Flourish, it's charge attack throws spikes at enemies which is faster and can help you hit switches across walls. The Flourishs' charge thrust can be easily interrupted.
Di, 07/19/2011 - 22:31
#5
I like my flamberge.
The status effects are most useful in a danger room or arena, where you are hitting multiple enemies once or twice each, running a bit, then coming back for more. When you can concentrate on a single monster, EliteChamp is right, you'll kill it before the status effect matters. Then again, the 10% or so extra damage the Swift Flourish line has over the Flamberge line also is nearly meaningless, as enemies will need at most one extra hit to be killed. When you're hitting 12 different monsters twice each with a flamberge, odds are a couple will catch fire and take some meaningful extra damage before you get around to finishing them off with the sword, which is why I made a flamberge instead of a swift flourish.
Di, 07/19/2011 - 22:44
#6
But using the Flourish line
But using the Flourish line in an Arena (not in a Danger Room and I agree a status Flourish would be good there) has two disadvantages.
1. There are loads of constructs in Arenas which means that Piercing damage is rubbish in there unless you take another sword which is not weak against them.
2. The thrust cannot be stopped (by you I mean, not by the monsters because I am not sure about them) so if there is a Retrode or Lumber hiding behind a bunch of other enemies aiming at you, you will get hit which is something you do not want to happen in an Arena. The projectiles shot from Snarble Barbs will cause Mecha Knights to shield which buys you time and is something I use with my Avenger (I am sure that all projectiles work the same way).
Di, 07/19/2011 - 22:44
#7
I used to have the 4*
I used to have the 4* flamberge, but didn't like it. I'd did cause fire whenever, even when not charged.
Mi, 07/20/2011 - 03:54
#8
I used to think Flourishes
I used to think Flourishes were weak, because of their looks and thrusts instead of swings, but when I finally decided to test one, I found out I was greatly mistaken. I used to have problems with Greavers, and Devilites were troublesome too, but Flourish piercing damage and attack pattern makes it perfect for fighting them. The first strike often makes devilites stumble and interrupts greavers, and if they dodge, the thrust is perfect to follow-up. It's also useful for the Alpha Wolvers in Arenas.
As for the damage - my Final Flourish deals more damage to Trojans or Vanaduke (not the mask) than DA! If you want a status effect, I'd recommend the Rigadoon as there are many other ways of dealing fire, but my advice is to just take the Final for pure damage.
As for the Dark Thorn Blade vs Final Flourish - ask yourself will you ever use this pathetic spike attack (which will be dodged by most enemes vulnerable to piercing) or would you rather have a charge which has less opportunities to use but is really powerful? Flourish charge can ALMOST kill a trojan or destroy a whole group of devilites if you're lucky (but you're in trouble if you're not).
I'm a pure swordsman right now and my usual setup is:
Divine Avenger, Gran Faust, Final Flourish
Skolver Cap, Vog Cub Coat
Grey Owlite or Dark Thorn Shield (depending on enemies I expect)
Mi, 07/20/2011 - 07:09
#9
Thorn Blade Charge
Personally, I like the Thorn Blade line better than the Flourish line for the charge attack (I agree with other posters that the extra damage on the Flourish is better than the status effect chances of the other variants). Contrary to what Prizmat says, I've had no difficulties with enemies dodging my charge attacks from my Dark Thorn Blade, which has made it a fantastic choice for kiting in gremlin/wolver danger rooms. The piercing damage means I'll usually kill the wolvers first, preventing them from carrying over to the next wave, but still does full damage to the gremlins.
Mi, 07/20/2011 - 10:51
#10
The Rigadoon and Flamberge
The Rigadoon and Flamberge lines can inflict their status on normal and charge attacks. I've been tracking to see how often the Fearless Rigadoon causes stun and the frequency is around 1 in 15 with a great deal of variability. I've stunned a monster on the first hit, I've also gone as many as 49 hits before stunning something. One place where it should be useful, in graveyards around all those phantoms, I've gone through an entire graveyard never stunning a phantom... how sad is that?
Due to the sheer number of hits, in gremlin/wolver danger rooms you do stuns them but if there are 20 in there and one of them is stunned you won't really notice. The only time stun is noticeable is when I stun a trojan in FSC, then they derp for a few seconds until it wears off allowing a good deal of damage to be done safely.
Fire might be more useful since it will passively deal damage, but don't expect much from it. A full burn in T3 might do 180 damage - about one swipe with the weapon.
In exchange for these statuses how much of a damage nerf do these weapons take? In T3, depending on enemy and depth, the Final Flourish does 15-30% more damage than the Fearless Rigadoon/Furious Flamberge.
Mi, 07/20/2011 - 11:36
#11
I think I've decided which
I think I've decided which weapon I'll try. In terms of sheer damage, it appears that the Final Flourish trumps both the Fearless Rigadoon and Fierce Flamberge by a large margin. Sure it doesn't provide a status condition, but with a Flourish opponents die so quickly that it the statuses won't have time to do much, anyway.
As for Final Flourish vs. Barbarous Thorn Blade, it seems that again it is a trade-off of damage for an effective kiting charge attack. Honestly, if I'm going to avoid damage and kite something, as in a danger room, I'm going to use my Argent Peacemaker for easy aiming, a large clip, the ability to move and shoot, and NO charge time. I'm planning on using the Flourish as a quick Devilite or Bat killer; the two enemies I struggle with, as opposed to using it to take down danger rooms, which is what the BTB appears to be good for.
Thanks for the discussion, guys. It really made me reconsider the FF and I feel I'm making the right choice.
-Tri
Mi, 07/20/2011 - 13:00
#12
You're welcome, glad I could
You're welcome, glad I could help (when I was choosing which Flourish to take, somebody on the forums helped me too).
@Kaigen
I've never tested the Barbarous Thorn Blade as I already had the 4* Flourish when it was introduced, I've only read somewhere in the Arsenal that Devilites dodge its projectiles and based my opinion on that. But I agree with OK495 that the purpose of piercing sword lies more in fighting Fiends and quickly finishing them one after another than using it against groups of enemies.
I have just thought of one good use of the BTB's charge - could you test how much damage does the charge deal if unleashed in Trojan's or Vanaduke's back and if all spikes hit it then? It would be good to confirm if Devilites dodge it after all.
Mi, 07/20/2011 - 17:58
#13
Testing
@ Prizmat
I haven't started Vanaduke yet, but I'll try to jump into a fiend stratum and test against devilites and trojans. Devilites jump around so much even when you aren't shooting at them that it might be tricky to tell.
Mi, 07/20/2011 - 18:30
#14
Zelda
guess i forgot to press the post button here
yes flourish more dmg, BTB pretty much the same, flourish charge really hard to aim with, if u can aim a flourish charge, u might be easily able to aim with BTB charge, i suggest testing the 2* just for the charge
Do, 07/21/2011 - 01:12
#15
I feel I must add a tidbit
I feel I must add a tidbit about your choice in swords.
I find that the flourish line is very handy for dealing with gremlins if your main weapon is elemental and you don't have a shadow melee weapon on hand. I invested in a Swift Flourish with gremlin bonus damage, dubbing it my "healer hunter" since I loved B-lining for the healing butterflies with my Snarble barb. Upon using it to survive inside of gremlin levels (my main is a Glacius) I found out it's attack pattern makes fighting them easier to manage., even if the damage boost isn't a variable. Like the spur line it tends to knock the gremlins back, actually nulling their double-swing habits with lucky hits. Unlike the spurs it tends to be a bit easier to control, but you still have to be careful or else you're gonna get yourself t-boned by something painful.
Do, 07/21/2011 - 12:19
#16
im using snarble barb series,
im using snarble barb series, specially 5* charge attack is amazing. the spikes deal decent damage, the charge slash deals major damage with snarbolax head appearing which also is powerful also cool
Do, 07/21/2011 - 12:31
#17
snarble user here
I've never used a sword from the flourish line. i just feel that the flourish line's charge attack will leave me a bit too exposed and vulnerable (especially that pause when you are done unleashing your charge attack).
as noted above, the snarble line and the final flourish line does the same amount of damage for the non-charged hits. And i just crafted a dark thorn blade 2 days ago. the charged spike damage went up quite a bit when compared with hte twisted snarble barb. And if you use it at point blank range, you can get 2-4 spikes into the enemy for extra damage
Do, 07/21/2011 - 15:38
#18
another snarble user
Using the charge attack of the barbarous thorn blade against a pack of wolvers is great, usually you'll kill a wolver in a single charge attack while also damaging others if you fire at point blank range. The wolver that dies is usually because it was hit by the charge attack swing and some of the spikes.
Even if you fire from a distance and don't get the damage of the main swing, you can still hit several wolvers with the spikes
Sa, 07/23/2011 - 11:01
#19
Rethought My Decision
I looked into both the Barbarous Thorn Blade and Final Flourish. Both weapons do exactly the same amount of damage (down to the last digit), so really the only differences are in charge attacks (also, obviously Final Flourish is easier to obtain).
Final Flourish - Charge Move
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
+Excellent for killing single enemies, such as phantoms in T3 graveyards.
-You are extremely vulnerable using this move against a group of enemies.
-Charge attack is too similar to regular Flourish's attack.
Barbarous Thorn Blade - Charge Move
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
+Excellent for hitting large groups of enemies, such as danger rooms or arenas.
+Charge attack is nothing like the BTB's regular attack, allowing for versatility.
Bottom line: I'm getting a BTB. The FF's charge attack seems far too much like its basic attack to be useful.
-Tri
Sa, 07/23/2011 - 11:28
#20
im a fan of rigadoon
the rapier-like weapons allows one to zoom in and out with quite a far range...
rigadoon stun very often for me...
sure you'll kill the opponent fast anyway, but, many who manage to get out of your attacking range and escape will not get too far...
the stun is actually best for a group of piercing-weak opponents, specifically, a newly spawned pack of wolvers..
Sa, 07/23/2011 - 15:08
#21
hi peeps. my brother has a
hi peeps. my brother has a snarble barb(which he is currently turnng into a twisted snarble barb) and i have seen him use it. the charge attack is useful to hit switches and hit mobs of enemys. I have also read the description for the BTB on the wiki and the hologram of the snarby seems very inviting, compared to the final flourish's plain "poke, poke, poke, slash" so, yes, i would get the BTB.
So, 07/24/2011 - 08:58
#22
Trojan and Devilite testing
Okay, I finally managed to do some testing. I was using a Dark Thorn Blade, full heat, in Copper Titan Gate D12, Ice Maul Arena Fiendish Fray.
On the Trojan question, a Dark Thorn Blade charge attack released at point blank range into the back of an uninjured Trojan killed it with one or two thorns missing (I doubt you'd be able to get the entire spray to hit a Trojan, though Vanaduke is big enough you might against him).
On the Devilite question, things are a little trickier. Layoafers definitely do not dodge. Standard Devilites, on the other hand, appear to dodge, but not all the time; I'll probably be passing through that level a couple more times, so I'll investigate that further. At any rate, the Devilite dodge is a sidestep, as opposed to a jump back, so with the wide spray of thorns, you might be able to hit dodging Devilites anyway, especially in a crowd.
Mi, 08/24/2011 - 08:13
#23
mmm sorry to bring up this
mmm sorry to bring up this old thread, but i'm wondering if anyone has used the snarble vs vanaduke/trojans in T3? wondering how much damage it is doing, Personally with max damage i'm doing about 1600 charge attack to vanaduke with my final flourish
Mi, 08/24/2011 - 09:01
#24
I've used my BTB with max
I've used my BTB with max damage on vana and trojans, its only level 6 but it currently does 450 ish on the swing and 110 ish per spike x8 and the final bite so thats roughly 1400-1500 (assuming you land them all but should be no problem on vana) and its much quicker to recover and execute than a FF.
Mi, 08/24/2011 - 21:07
#25
i see, my final flourish is
i see, my final flourish is actually at level 6 as well, i don't remember the exact numbers, but i know it was 5xx,5xx,5xx hits, totalling for a little over 1600, personally i have max asi, and the recovery time for FF seems to be rather fast.
Is the BTB charge attack basically similar to the lower line charge attack recovery times? (kind of like DA/GF?), because that's what i'd compare the recovery time to.
Mo, 08/29/2011 - 01:19
#26
I have a final flourish with
I have a final flourish with 2 med damage trinkets, and dragon scale helm
that gives max damage towards beast :D
In the 2nd half of t3, I've noticed that the ff charge attack deals out 1800-1900
I would have to check the numbers again just to make sure
Final Flourish is quite a bit better than the others actually. Barbarous Thorn Blade is the same, with a different charge attack, to my knowledge. It's preference between those two. The stun and fire procs are weak and won't give much of any benefit due to how blazingly fast you kill things with a flourish.