Spiral Knights - Lockdown

Lockdown - Class Balance

37 replies [Last post]

Thu, 09/08/2011 - 15:15

Nick

Developer

Please read:
This thread is here to collect useful balance issues relating to classes. Posting balance issues requires a specific format outlined below. Posts detailing a balance issue not using the outlined format will be deleted. We want to keep this clean so that it's easy for us to parse.

Secondly, we want to get feedback from experienced players who believe they have an understanding of the class they are playing. Once you feel as though you have a grasp of the class and feel there is a balance issue, we welcome your feedback.

Please use the following format:

Class Name

Summary: A one sentence summary of the balance issue.

Followed by a detailed description. Try to be as specific as possible.

Example:

Guardian

Summary: The Guardian Shield is so powerful that it cannot be destroyed in a one on one fight.

There have been many games where one Guardian has been able to hold a Control Point all by himself using the Guardian Shield ability against multiple waves of single opponents. Against one player, the Guardian Shield can absorb enough damage that it will not break before it has a chance to regenerate. The rate at which a Guardian Shield regenerates could either be slower or the damage it can absorb could be decreased to make one on one fights viable against the Guardian.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 15:25

Azelyah

Striker

Striker:

I noticed that when shielding ( defend key/ button ) will also cause you to dash. ( I did see this in the notes ) It does make it a bit hard to defend while standing on a control point. Possibly a different or new key ( the same way there is a toggle key for load-outs) for the "dash" feature?

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 15:57

Tartar

Guardian shield

I though the guardian shield was a little over powered. When I used it with a Polaris I was pretty much untouchable. I never got attacked by more than 2 players at a time. Just fire a couple of shots with the Polaris and then shield. Nobody get could to me to break the shield before I killed them. Never went up against another player using the shield at the same time though.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 16:06

Fallout

Striker I can see how you are

Striker

I can see how you are pretty much unstoppable with the dash and a DA. You can come screaming around a corner hit somone into a corner than hit them again... and they are dead. It's quite hard to hit an enemy with a gun who is dashing straight pass you..... its like a drive by DA. I can see this game being ruled by swordies once again like super brawl. I'd like to see how this game works with t1 and t2 weapons....

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 16:05

coolsnopp

Legacy Username

Striker

Striker:

The Dash is kinda funny but maybe slow it down a little bit or a smaller health bar.

I really Enjoy Lockdown ^^

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 16:13

Sirusswan

Yeah striker could go with a

Yeah striker could go with a speed nerf.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 16:39

Pteprocks

Different Problem

Striker

Summary: Bomb penalties.

So the Guardian shield gives a gun penalty, and the Recon shield gives a sword penalty. But nothing gives a penalty to bombs, which as it is are too overly powerful in Lockdown. Perhaps the Striker could have bomb charge time increased or damage penalty, to better balance the various shield classes and possibly solve the bomb overpower problem at least partially.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 16:41

Nick

Developer

We've been talking about a

We've been talking about a bomb charge nerf on the striker here as well. I find it great fun as it is now but it very well could be imbalanced. Anyone else agree?

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 16:56

Sunless

I agree - it's fun for the

I agree - it's fun for the player, but a bit unfair for everyone else. If you have CTR Maximum, you can very easily out-maneuver your enemies and shock them to death/perma-freeze them.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 16:55

Azelyah

Yep on freezing

I could not get "unfrozen" as fast as my opponent was using the shivermist ! Great fun though. I really enjoyed Lock-down

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 17:09

#10

Randomzz

agree with nick

I definitely had the bombs charge fast than I could keep up. And charged them faster than others (who were also strikers) could run XD

I almost wish we could just do a general bomb or status debuff though, maybe not as severe as a specific one on the striker. Like either cap bomb ctr at high across the board or lower striker's to where it caps it at medium.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 17:41

#11

Dpod

CTR nerf on bombs?

I think it would be a little unfair nerfing ctr increases on bombs. Might as well nerf DA's if someone doesn't have it. What I do suggest though, is possibly making the bomb radius on just Lockdown smaller. The radius on these bombs I think are a little too big on these maps that we've seen thus far. I've seen voltaic and shiver spams by the force fields where ppl spawn. It's hard to get out of spawn unscathed when the opposing team is spamming bombs like crazy at choke points. Forest is good because it gives you a lot of space to come out of. Why nerf something that ppl worked for or bought to get max UV's on their bombs?

Charge time still give players the opportunity to disrupt a bomb charge. Shoot them lol.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 17:45

#12

Sunless

Why nerf something that ppl

Why nerf something that ppl worked for or bought to get max UV's on their bombs?

Then you must also apply that logic to the Attack Speed Decrease 2/3 of the classes have. By that line of thought, there should be no nerfs for any of the classes.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 17:45

#13

spaghetiman

Legacy Username

also the shivermist

also the shivermist interrupts bomb charges. i was trying to get out of a freeze lock with a vt and it wasn't working, as the freeze interrupted me every time.

~Spag

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 18:22

#14

KrogMoMo

Legacy Username

Nick could you explain the

Nick could you explain the ASI boost for the Bombs does it change Fuse or Plant Time? Because in regular SK it does nothing.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 18:50

#15

culture

Legacy Username

Hmm

I don't understand the ASI increase/decrease on bombs either. In regular SK, I tried recording the screen wearing Swiftstrike and couldn't measure any portion of bombing that was increased in speed (at least within the limits of my recording software.)

Shouldn't Guardian/Recon instead have Bomb CTR Low. I run with Max CTR anyways, so it wouldn't really matter to me but for people that aren't geared to bomb it would be a useful bonus.

I don't think it is necessary to nerf bombs. Bombs already have the issue that the are really easy to interrupt. The problem is that people swinging a sword or shooting a gun to interrupt missed more often than not, despite being at point-blank range. From experience, I unloaded an entire Sentenza clip at a stationary bomber and missed with each shot >_< The auto-aim change should help fix that issue, so hold off on nerfing for now.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 19:42

#16

Thisismyanchor

2 problems i see

Guardians

Shields break too fast when it comes to shielding bombs and not as fast as they should when it comes to sword shielding.

Striker

Waaaay too fast. Needs at least 30% speed reduction.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 22:13

#17

Sirusswan

I think that the striker

I think that the striker shield when active should provide very little or no shield protection as a balance for being harder to hit. They should be like glass cannons. As of right now the striker is a complete crutch and kills any advantage that gunners or bombers have. Strikers can dodge bombs and chase you down.

I think that the striker shield when active should provide no shield protection as a balance for being harder to hit. They should be like glass cannons.

Otherwise please reduce the time that strikers have to boost.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 22:14

#18

Nick

Developer

Newonemax - That's actually

Newonemax - That's actually exactly what's happening now. The Striker shield provides no additional defense when used. Strikers effectively have no shield when using it, just a speed boost.

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 23:04

#19

Klipwc

Striker

Place a bomb penalty on it. There are too many people running around dropping shivermists/ voltaic tempests and then dashing away in half a second. apart from that, the classes are rather balanced

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 23:10

#20

abSTRAkt

Legacy Username

Striker Summary: Striker is a

Striker

Summary: Striker is a little bit too fast and has too long of a bar.

The striker is supposed to make you go fast, but it needs a very slight nerf to its speed. Perhaps even an acceleration when you first activate it. The reason the bar is too long is because you can go from 1 point to another, if not farther in one go. This gives a team where everybody has striker a massive positional advantage all game and the other team can not keep up. I saw this happen many games, resulting in a score of 500 - 30 or something similiar.

-Xiinder

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 23:52

#21

Crazyoddbaa

Developer

Bomb ASI -> CTR

@KrogMoMo & culture: Yep, your confusion is not unfounded! This is a bug - ASI for bombs should actually be CTR bonuses/penalties.

Sat, 09/10/2011 - 13:05

#22

Richy

I am actually finding the

I am actually finding the classes to be fairly well balanced, whichever used.

Sat, 09/10/2011 - 16:05

#23

Splinter

@Codemister

I agree with you on this one. I think too with a bit of practice and technique any one class can out match the outher.

That being said they do seem to fall into a bit of a rock paper scissor form of play. At least when you look at the attributes on their own without player skill involved.

Guardian > Striker
Striker > Recon
Recon > Guardian

Sat, 09/10/2011 - 16:22

#24

Benb

Recon>Guardian?

Not quite sure I understand that. I guess if you have two people it would work well. However, the main benefit of Recon, in my opinion, is quite simple--attack opponents when they don't expect it and are defenseless.

Also, I see we have a new admin (I think).

Sat, 09/10/2011 - 18:28

#25

Crazyoddbaa

Developer

Late introduction!

@v0rtexknight

...and I totally forgot to introduce myself! Sorry everyone! I am one of the designers here at OOO and the level designer for the Lockdown maps. I also provide design input on Lockdown mechanics to the rest of the team, which is why you'll occasionally see me moonlighting on other topics outside of the map feedback thread. Great stuff here everyone, thanks for the input thus far!

-Crazyoddbaaa (sometimes found sneaking around in game with one less 'a')

Sat, 09/10/2011 - 23:55

#26

KainDarkfire

Legacy Username

Strikers, Bombs, and Shielding, oh my.

Strikers have a nice, but unwieldy speed dash and no shield (one tick of shock while blocking will kill a striker shield) this presents a problem when you're trying to run away, I do think the dash needs a nerf, but their base speed might need to go up, because they really don't have any other choice but to move, unlike normal SK, where you have a respectable shielding power to either absorb some damage or bounce enemies away entirely.

Bombs, I've seen and said this a few times in game, but attack speed does make sense, especially in this case, over CTR. All these status bombs are too easily spammed, it would be more effective if people didn't have crazy amounts of CTR and drop bombs every second and a half, but the fuse timer was quicker so bombs OTHER THAN status effect bombs had some sort of purpose. With the full arsenal available with ten bombs, I saw four used the entire time; Fire, Shock, and Freeze status, and I think I saw Radiant Shards once or twice.

Shields not having any place in Lockdown really throws off some gearing strategy. Granted, you have the class skills, which are handy, but after being used to shield tactics in the normal game, not having any of that ability kills it for me, and I would rather see usable shields and class items over class shields and a hole where one of my most important gear pieces was supposed to be.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 08:30

#27

Sirusswan

The guardian

It seems that since that last patch, the guardian shield does not last nearly as long as it use too. It might be just that I have to hold off a mob of players more often now than just 1 or 2. I have just observed that it used to take more that 7 hits from a flourish to break but now it seems to take 4 or less. If this was a real intended change then please undo it.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 14:03

#28

Randomzz

some thoughts

Guardian
The Guardian class has a sword bonus, so to have a class bonus you have to be close to someone. However, recently the shield seems to absorb less damage. So basically the logic seems to be: the devs want us to get close up to people to fight them as defenders, and then get owned by them. Seriously, 2 people working in tandem can take down a guardian no sweat with the Guardian often not having a chance to at least take one of them with them. Especially if you kill one person before and are in the middle of the field. Guardians can't run back to the base to heal like strikers can. Either guardian should have a gun damage/bomb ctr bonus instead of the asi, or the shield should go back to its original health. Another alternative: once you pass through a energy field coming out, you can't go back in.

Striker
Strikers seems decently balance right now, there seems to be an issue with them being able to swing/hit you before they fully come out of their sprint, but that could be lag. The only other thing I see right now is, and once again could be lag, when they sprint and I try to lead them with an attack. If I am in range with a heavy sword, the wide swing usually clips them. However, using BTB or Final Flourish, if I lead them a little too much, they take no damage even though their highlighted trail passes throw the space my lunge was in. I'm sorry, but if you run into my sword while it's outstretched, it's going to hurt you, so it should cause damage in game.

Recon
Recon is also decent, although honestly I think they should have a sword buff instead of debuff. Swords are best used with them, but get the worst damage. This is probably intentional, though, and I could see why.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:16

#29

Chris

Guardian Summary: The

Guardian

Summary: The Guardian Shield is so powerful that it cannot be destroyed in a one on one fight and leads to extreme turtling and stalemates.

Make the Guardian shield decay the longer it is held up so Guardians cant just sit still on a point and let their eyes glaze over while people try to kill them.

Wed, 09/14/2011 - 13:42

#30

Sirusswan

@killaizsik Kite guardians

@killaizsik Kite guardians with guns.

@dude I agree
Please buff the guardian shield health, as it is now, it cannot play its intended roll very well. Pre-nerf it felt balanced, great against aggressive players, but you could kite the guardian with guns or shield cancel slash him to lock him into shield stun until the shield breaks. It did take some time to do this, but that is the point of the guardian, stalling an advance and deterring aggressive play. If a guardian was being kited he had two options , retreat or drop the shield and attack his opponent to chase him away. Both these options are much more difficult than the other classes due to the guardian trading out mobility for defense. As of right now any advantages that the guardian shield give are out weighted by the lack of mobility.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 02:01

#31

Phoenyx

Guardian As it stands now it

Guardian

As it stands now it is near impossible to take down 2 guardian shields if you are fighting them in a 2 v 1 (or 4 v 2 where 4 guardians vs any 2).

The problem is that the shield recharges fairly quickly and 2 guardians who are both shielding will have 2 shields to chew through. This problem is very apparent in the 6 v 6 format when you have 2 or 3 guardians standing on a point and your team rushes in, the team with more guardians shields almost always wins because of the extra health that it works out to. 3 swings from a twisted snarble barb or 2 swings from a sealed sword per shield. I believe there is a simple fix for this which is to make it so if 2 guardians standing inside each other shields ranges get hit, the damage is applied to both their shields simeltaniously. This will mean that a person can take down the guardian shields fairly quickly in a larger fight and not have to worry about fighting 6 guys with 3 shields which works out to around 9 guys for most teir 2 lockdown, rather fighting around 7 guys.

As it stands now this is really a rahter large issue as teams with 2 strong attackers and 4 weak players can have the 4 weak players all go guardian and give the 2 strong players an effective extra 4 strong players.

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 05:27

#32

Chris

Months after LD release the

Months after LD release the problems have yet to be even looked at it seems.

Guardians are still by far the least skill requiring and strongest overall class.

Give them AT LEAST asi reduction medium on swords or a health reduction.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 15:51

#33

Blue-Phaze

Striker: Strikers are too

Striker:

Strikers are too fast to catch and take too much health in a single hit.

There's not much to explain here. Anyone knows that strikers using flourishes or Snarble Barbs are really hard to take down, especially because they usually take you down first. They can come out of nowhere, favored by a bit of lag, and land a very powerful blow on anyone, and escape rushing just like they came.
I'm sure it'd be more balanced if strikers were a bit, just a bit, slower, and less powerful.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 20:44

#34

Phoenyx

I'd like to change what I

I'd like to change what I suggested earlier about the guardian shield fix.

Take away the bubble, just make it a personal shield, the healing radius is fine as it doesn't do much but the bubble is too much for skill or equipment to overcome in pretty much any 1v2 or 2v2 (or larger group fight). Now I know guardians will not like that idea but the balance for it is this, give them a stronger personal shield. I have no problem fighting a guardian 1v1 because I know if he wants to damage me he has to drop the shield and I can then counter attack him. However 2 guardians means that they can pretty much always have a shield and be attacking if I'm in a 2v1 against them. This should not exist.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 20:01

#35

Aeromatrix

Over the Speed Limit

-Instant recharge for the striker speed module?
I believe that this should be changed to a gradual recharge like that of the Guardian or Recon.
-They're way too fast.
I agree with Blue-Phaze.

Sun, 01/15/2012 - 20:53

#36

Neodasus

Recon Summary: Recons running

Recon

Summary: Recons running out of shield energy before battling a large group of players

I have have had little trouble killing classes as a recon, scoring 8k on average with a sizable number of defends. However, For the sake of balance you might want to give recons the ability to recharge their shield (at a much lower rate) while invisible. This is a much needed ability to survive extremely large skirmishes (4+v1). Perhaps this could work only if they remain stationary?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 22:34

#37

Sincarnation

Striker Issue

Striker

Summary: With the new Heart pendants and proper gear are incredibly difficult to take down unless you have a large number advantage about 3 to 1

Normally have no trouble with strikers but lately I have been facing Strikers with two Penta Heart Pendants and the extra 12 health makes a difference when they can kill you very fast. Perhaps give classes a uniform set health to make it easier for people new to the higher levels and balance the 9 health striker vs 21 health striker.

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Lockdown - Class Balance