Most of the bombs used in LD are not for damage purposes and the few gunners left really don't need sword users having more advantages over them. Most of the bombs that do deal damage are easily avoided, pretty much limiting bombers to the RSS.

Not to mention bombers couldn't really go striker and gunners probably shouldn't go guardian.

Also how would you determine who is a gunner and a sword user? I use both prominently.

It's too complex since anyone can carry both a gun a sword and a bomb at the same time, all of them with different damage types. It needs to be constatly updated and recalculated wich may add lag.

Also dont just think about divine mantle but also about people with mixed sets, like skolver coat and a vog cap.

The Rock-Paper-Scissors style of balancing would only work if players were forced to all use generic equipment, based on their class, which would be a complete reversal of everything Lockdown has been thus far.

My experience in LD so far is that this RPS-type balance works more or less:

A swordsman-striker can have a really tough time by a (recon) bomber spamming status bombs, who in turn will be rendered useless (& dead) by a gunner, while the gunner does so little damage per shot to the striker that he dies on his sword anyway.

Bombers can use a little buff anyway (damage bonus increase on top of the CTR for recons maybe?) as do gunners (damage bonus again?) since a skolver-wearing striker with a medium ASI UV on his sword already has max damage and very high ASI. (ugh!)

i'm not a big fan of the pvp in this game. that seems to be a problem in games that a mainly pve and started out as pve.

"....10 replies in 4 days..."

Behold, the neglection of the Suggestions forum.

I did read it though I didn't reply because I had no real feedback to add to it. I'm not a big PvPer so..

~Sev

Im not sure if this feature would satisfy alot of pvpers, this would turn a match of skill into a match of luck. Im not saying pvp is exactly balanced, but im not sure this is a perfect way to go about fixing it.

Swords>Gunners>Bombers> (Swords) This bit i changed.... 'cause this is how it works... swords have a hard time getting to bomber, and they rush guns quite well... gunners interrupt bombers... just think of the gun puppys...

Striker>Recon>Guardian> (Striker)

Shadow > Elemental > Piercing > (Shadow)

The APs should be a hidden stat, similar to knockback and the like...

and Silversix would work like it does in the clockworks... pierce/ele deals well... normal to shadow, not very effective to ele, and super effective to peirce....

@Chris

You would be correct about gunners shredding mostly everything in lockdown except for the lag. No one plays them because you have to randomly guess where to aim. If i shoot your right in the face while you are moving the shot will not register. On the other hand your sword will hit me if you hit me on your screen. I have been killed countless times from a sword strike that I was clearly out of range by quite alot. Guns do not get this advantage.

Its incredibly hard to be good with a gun because of the horrible lag. The only time I ever connect with my gun is if someone keeps moving one direction then i shoot about two shots to the side they are moving. if they change direction the shot misses always. If you want to survive an alchemer shot just keep zig zagging. Shots from that gun will never hit you.

If they ever fix the lag to where swords have there normal range and guns actually connect where they are supposed to then alot more people will start using guns. I play as hawtpink and the only reason i constantly killed you is because you boosted towards me. If you just boosted in shorter intervals and changed you direction more I can not hit you. Strikers are easy targets because they are too aggressive and move in a straight line towards me.

@Chris

try pinging 184.73.168.101, that is a server on the amazon cluster very close to where spiral knights is located.

I get less than 50ms and still have lagging problems in Lockdown. I can fraps a video if you want on what it looks like. I am pretty sure you get hit by swords from ridiculous ranges sometimes. I really have to guess as to where to shoot people when they are moving. I can not stress enough that if I shoot directly at someone it WILL miss if they are moving. My bullet has to hit about one knight to the side of where they are on my screen.

All online games have ways to get around latency in pvp. This one does not try too hard.

Just had to rage quit again. Lag got so bad on one stage i could not hit anything without pure luck. Then again i was dying from sword strikes from nearly half my guns range. Why do I keep playing lockdown I do not know. And my ping is still super low. The only time lag is ok is when it is 4 on 4. If it is 8 on 8 I may as well just quit at the start.

I have to agree with Jontlemen on this one. If you gun in Lockdown, it's only because you enjoy a challenge. Any well-known Lockdown gunner's performance level would increase by quite a bit if you handed them Skolver armors and a Final Flourish. My friend and guildmate, Blueflood, is the best known Lockdown gunner on the game. He has a Youtube video of him getting 16,000 damage with a Striker, Umbra, and Hail Driver. He recently crafted a Skolver Coat and Flourish, and has already surpassed 20,000 damage with those two items.

The fact of the matter is, swords are far and away the supreme Lockdown weapons right now. I believe Chris said that swords were given better damage to accommodate for the lack of range. If the Striker class did not exist, this would work. Sadly, the movement speed bonus provided by the Striker makes the rapier lines broken in every meaning of the word. I have tried gunning versus other Strikers, and as soon as you are out of Striker boost, you're toast. You have no way to defend yourself at close range. The gunner's advantage is supposed to be being able to deal damage at low risk of being damaged themselves. This advantage disappears when a swordsman can close any distance with a simple left-click (or whatever you have block assigned to).

Giving guns a bit more damage won't solve their problems. The nerf needs to be dropped on the Striker class. Some ideas would include...

-Decreasing the movement speed bonus. Swordsmen would be hurt by this much worse than gunners, as fencing requires a lot more speed and movement.
-Remove the sword attack damage bonus from the Striker class. Guardian and Recon do not provide two bonuses to the same weapon class, which is part of the reason why swords are so broken.

Also, some gun buffs would be necessary as well...

+Replace the sword attack damage bonus on Striker with a gun attack damage bonus.
+Increase the hitbox size on the Alchemer line.

Thoughts?

@Trihelix I think your ideas go in the right direction.

The striker really does not need a speed nerf, but it is the only class that has INSTANT ability recharge. Another point is that if a recon gets statused by a haze bomb, their shield breaks instantly but the same does not happen for a striker as far as I know.

Swords are mostly OP because most knowledgable players use the Flourish or BTB as a primary weapon. The Flourish/BTB has an insanely OP(faster that most swords with the huge damage area of a troika) first swing that can be easily shield canceled. If they reduce the damage area of the flourish/BTB first swing to something similar to a cutter or calibur then the sword would still have upsides versus other swords in LD and in PVE but not be often completely game breaking.

So my idea of a balanced LD would be:

Most of what Trihelix suggested

What I suggested for nerfing the flourish/BTB

Removing Auto-aim completely from LD.

Done. Balanced.

/Discuss

How about: if you're a striker, and you get damaged while dashing, you lose part of your charge?
Wouldn't solve all the issues, but it would be a start.

All the guns in T1 do basically a meaningless amount of damage. I can hammer on a guardian all day with a pummel gun, which I believe has the highest DPS, and their shield won't break, whereas one combo from my Heavy Hatchet will take the shield down immediately.

Guns are pretty equally useless in T2. Alchemer bullets travel too slow and are easy to dodge, the Antigua does basically no damage, the Kilowatt is only really good for its shock status and the story doesn't get any better with the rest.

A) Nerf Wolver: it's the only armor set that provides increased damage. Make is ASI instead. This is why i think vog is pretty balanced.
B) Increase gun and bomb damage: guns and bombs do no damage at all. They should at least have a decent punch.
C) More Lockdown classes: tanky person with damage + support medic. Healing in lockdown isn't op since you have a clock.

Guardians have a distinct advantage over Strikers. Anyone who has faced a skilled guardian or recon will tell you they are just as hard to beat if not harder to beat than skilled strikers. In addition, unskilled strikers are the easiest of the three classes to beat, a lot of people can easily get past survivability issues if they just pick guardian or recon.

Guns are not meant to deal comparable damage to swords, so comparing the damage of the two is a moot point. I highly doubt OOO actually intended people to play using exclusively one type of weapon. That is something people thought up themselves. People are supposed to carry a varied loadout with them, that is why Blueflood saw an increase in damage, because he had both a sword AND a gun, not just because he got a sword.

The OP's idea gives the advantage to people who can afford weapon slots. Someone with 4 weapon slots will have a much easier time switching to a weapon that gives them the most advantage against anyone he faces, while a person with two weapon slots will always have someone he is weak against and must either constantly return to the locker to switch loadouts or just die a lot.

On the topic of guns missing a lot, I don't think it is due to lag. The way Abitathree described it sounded like he/she was aiming directly at the person he/she wanted to hit. What you should be doing is aiming at where the person is going, because bullets take time to travel to their target. No bullets in this game are instantaneous, all of them have a bit of travel lag. Now while this is called lag, it is not internet lag, this lag is intentional and is meant to stop guns from being overpowered.

Final note: Strikers do not need a nerf, guardians and recons do not need a buff. For the love of God OOO do not give guardians a buff they are already ridiculously powerful.

"Are you assuming that two equally skilled players would have equal chances of winning, even though one is a striker and the other's a gunner?
That's not what really happens, and you know that."

I've seen it go either way, no matter what your perk is. The only thing this thread proves is that there needs to be some sort of LD tutorial system so that maybe people like you would understand the mechanics of LD.

I have never flat out lost to a striker using final flourish/btb exclusively. Just to make this clear I'll be releasing a video mid-march on how easily strikers can be thrown around. This is why most strikers are now using argent peacemakers, to compensate for this weakness.

If you had any experience playing LD you would know this.

@Nodocchi

That is my point exactly man. Who will win 95% of the time?

A player that actually knows frame data and combos?

Or a button masher?

EDIT: You need to think of LD as a fighting game, every animation has frame data that you can take advantage of. It's really something you need to experience yourself, but I'm just telling you man...play a bit more and once you gain enough experience then maybe you'll understand how balanced LD really is.

You are right about one thing though, you have too many inexperienced players meshed in with skilled ones. The inexperienced ones don't really have this opportunity to learn about the mechanics of LD because they spend half the game dead. This is why we need permanent rankings based on a win/loss ratio (match-ups basked on rankings), and a comprehensive LD tutorial to solve this problem. I really hope the devs skim this thread...because this needs to happen.