Spiral Knights - PvP revamped: How to make Lockdown perfectly balanced

PvP revamped: How to make Lockdown perfectly balanced

68 replies [Last post]

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 22:57

Blue-Phaze

After noticing many people complaining about Lockdown being unbalanced and some weapons sucking while others are overpowered, I realized everything a PvP needs is balance and variety. Balance makes every match fair enough to avoid making players frustrated. Variety adds options, strategy and fun to the game.
Then I thought of the old, but perfectly balanced, Rock-Paper-Scissors game, and how this system could be applied to help Lockdown. I chose RPS because it guarantees that all players have equal chances of winning or losing, making them rely only on their own skill.
However, RPS is a very strict game, and if a equivalent system was implemented, LD would lose its variety of gear and strategy. So why not upgrade it?
I came up with this "Triple Triangle" system, which would balance out players, making anyone have some weakness to certain combinations of gear/class, while compensating with a slight buff over the opposite kind of players. In other words, players would choose their style of play freely (variety), while still having as many chances of winning as any other player with equal skills (balance).
It is based on the current LD classes, weapons and damage types and works just like an upgraded Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Triangles:
Class:
Striker > Recon > Guardian > (Striker)

Weapon:
Swords > Guns > Bombs > (Swords)

Damage:
Shadow > Elemental > Piercing > (Shadow)
[All are neutral to Normal]

No, this wouldn't make Recons kill all Guardians, neither all Swordsmen die to any Bomber. This is, again, just a balancing element, not a guarantee of win for those with an advantage.

Advantage Points:
Your APs are based on your opponent's and your own triangle choices.
If your choice is weak against your opponent's, you get 0 APs; a strong choice gives you 2, while the same (neutral) choice gives 1 AP for each.
For instance:
A Shadow Striker Swordsman would have 4 APs over an Elemental Guardian Gunner, with Elemental being his Main Defense.
In short, the more APs you have over your opponent, the more damage you deal.
This means you can be someone else's nightmare and a third person's easy prey. All at the same time.
APs would be shown on top of each player's head.

Damage vs Defense:
The third triangle would work a bit differently from the other two. It would always work as:
P1's Weapon Damage VS P2's Main Defense
The defense type with the biggest amount on your defensive set (Armor, Helm and Shield) would be your Main Defense, which would be Normal only if there is no other defense type (Whole Set is Normal defensive). Whenever there is an equal amount of types, they get to choose which they want to be their MD.
Double damage weapons would work the same as in the CW:
Sun Shards and Silversix lines
Neutral to Shadow, weak to Elemental and strong to Piercing MD.
Blackhawk and Sentenza
Weak to Shadow, neutral to Elemental and strong Piercing MD.

Last tweaks:
Lockdown exclusive tweaks would make things better; faster and stronger guns and bombs should give swordsmen a real challenge.
It would need tweaks regarding UVs too. I propose having all UVs downgraded during matches to not working in Tier 1, Low in Tier 2 and Medium in Tier 3. Just like high tier weapons in the Clockworks.

TL;DR - Upgraded 'Rock-Paper-Scissors' style of balance. Different aspects of your gear would influence on your strenght against other players.

This post has been edited multiple times. Lots of suggestions have been added.
What do you think of this guys? If you thought of anything I could add, please reply.
Thanks for reading ^^

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 23:18

Renpartycat

Not sure what to say.

Sounds strange yet interesting. It might be a good system to implement.

We still have to remove UV bonuses from Lockdown, not sure if UVs work there. We'd also have to tweak the damage values a little bit for this update so the AP system is more of a balance element rather than a free buff.

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 00:33

Blue-Phaze

I'm glad you liked, and

I'm glad you liked, and understood this ^^ I was concerned the whole time about being as clear as possible.
I think UVs do work, but i guess it doesn't make such a difference since most UVs are against monsters...
"the AP system is more of a balance element rather than a free buff"
Yes!! you got the point about APs, they're the only way to make every player have their prey and predator. That should balance out weapons which have a big advantage over others, considering lots of players will choose sets with advantages over the overused/overpowered, causing those overused sets to be less used and creating an amazing loop of gear variety, and that's all about balancing stuff ^^

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 08:39

Jontlemen

Most of the bombs used in LD

Most of the bombs used in LD are not for damage purposes and the few gunners left really don't need sword users having more advantages over them. Most of the bombs that do deal damage are easily avoided, pretty much limiting bombers to the RSS.

Not to mention bombers couldn't really go striker and gunners probably shouldn't go guardian.

Also how would you determine who is a gunner and a sword user? I use both prominently.

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 09:18

Varo

Support

Good idea. This could actually work if SK implemented this. :D.

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 10:26

Juances

It's too complex since anyone

It's too complex since anyone can carry both a gun a sword and a bomb at the same time, all of them with different damage types. It needs to be constatly updated and recalculated wich may add lag.

Also dont just think about divine mantle but also about people with mixed sets, like skolver coat and a vog cap.

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 10:59

Blue-Phaze

@Jontlemen Most of the bombs

@Jontlemen
Most of the bombs used in LD are not for damage purposes and the few gunners left really don't need sword users having more advantages over them.
We can always make new tweaks for this kind of problems. I believe that making bombers and gunners sufficiently faster (only in LD, ofc) would give swordsmen much more competition
Most of the bombs that do deal damage are easily avoided, pretty much limiting bombers to the RSS.
Same as above, sufficiently faster charging and detonation would make the game fair enough
Not to mention bombers couldn't really go striker and gunners probably shouldn't go guardian.
That was just a freaking example dude -.- and still, a whole lot of combinations are still possible
Also how would you determine who is a gunner and a sword user? I use both prominently.
Whenever you're holding a sword, you're a swordsman, same for gunners

@Juances
This wouldn't add lag. It MAY SEEM a bit complex for us, humans, but it's not complex enough to actually make a computer's CPU lag. In the worst of the cases, you can always have a pre-calculated chart, stored in your own PC, and have your client consult that chart, whenever needed.

About mixed sets, the most present defense type would be the player's main defense. In cases which there might be equal amounts of those types, the player gets to choose which he wants to be his main. I'll add that to the OP right away.

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 11:07

Duke-Sky

RPS only works if the equipment is standardized

The Rock-Paper-Scissors style of balancing would only work if players were forced to all use generic equipment, based on their class, which would be a complete reversal of everything Lockdown has been thus far.

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 13:52

Blue-Phaze

Dukesky, you didn't get

Dukesky, you didn't get it.
We don't need RPS' perfect balance. I was just inspired by it, to make every player have a prey and a predator at the same time, thus creating an infinite loop, always changing Lockdown matches, causing them to NEVER be alike.
Logical thinking:
Suppose most players started choosing Scissors during LD matches; other players would choose Rock, giving them an advantage over that majority of players who chose Scissors. This would increase the number of Rock players and decrease Scissors'. In sucession, once Rock players become a majority, players will tend to choose Paper, increasing the numb.....blablabla You got the point.

NOW HERE IS THE TRICK. PAY ATTENTION:
A cycle involving only 3 choices is boring and repetitive by itself, since it'll keep going always in the same "Rock < Paper < Scissors" direction. HOWEVER, with three cycles directly affecting each other, things get much, much more interesting. And if this "Triple Triangle" thing wasn't enough we even got, an entire arsenal of weapons and armors, a 4th type of damage (normal), and an unique player base, each player with their preferences.
There you go: Balanced variety.

With all due respect sir, if you can't comprehend why balance and variety means everything to any PvP, I guess Lockdown isn't for you.

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 15:04

Blue-Phaze

Bump. I need opinions D:

Mon, 01/09/2012 - 04:42

#10

Blue-Phaze

Anyone? plz? D:I had so much

Anyone? plz? D:
I had so much work to think of this, it's just cruel to get no feedback ToT

btw I fixed Jontlemen's complain (now gunners have an advantage over swordsmen)

Mon, 01/09/2012 - 06:06

#11

Stavrosg

Uhm.

My experience in LD so far is that this RPS-type balance works more or less:

A swordsman-striker can have a really tough time by a (recon) bomber spamming status bombs, who in turn will be rendered useless (& dead) by a gunner, while the gunner does so little damage per shot to the striker that he dies on his sword anyway.

Bombers can use a little buff anyway (damage bonus increase on top of the CTR for recons maybe?) as do gunners (damage bonus again?) since a skolver-wearing striker with a medium ASI UV on his sword already has max damage and very high ASI. (ugh!)

Mon, 01/09/2012 - 14:51

#12

Blue-Phaze

I propose having all UVs not

I propose having all UVs not working in tier 1, downgraded to Low in tier 2 and Medium in tier 3. That should make matches even more balanced. Sounds good enough for me.
Just like in the Clockworks, whenever a powerful sword is in a lower tier their damage is lowered.
Adding to OP.

Mon, 01/09/2012 - 18:02

#13

Aurablaze

i love it

i'm not a big fan of the pvp in this game. that seems to be a problem in games that a mainly pve and started out as pve.

Mon, 01/09/2012 - 19:16

#14

Insanejesterking

Mad props bro.

Simply amazing.
You just solved all of my discrepencies abut lockdown in
one fell swoop. The personal brownie points you just one with
me= over 9,000. While no system is flawless, yours, if at first a little confusing
to the layman, is the most likely to work. I personally find no joy 1-hit killing
a poor newbie who had a horrible LD experiance because he did not bring
the right gear, and did not know the subtle tricks to win.
Its shamefull, and is not a satisfying challenge in the least.
I feel that with your system, we may finally gravitate more into the 'player skill'
factor, and away from the 'better gear' factor. I do have one suggestion
though. Newbies with low star gear, for ther first ten runs ever in lockdown,
should have a small buff either for their health, attack power, or to strengthen their defense,
just to help them get into the swing of things a bit. maybe they could even choose which buff they want.
I feel that it would fix the learning curve problem a bit.
And yet again, mad props bro.

Mon, 01/09/2012 - 20:10

#15

Blue-Phaze

I'm not used to such generous compliments. Thank you, Insane.

Thanks, man.
Your suggestion sounds great too :) I didn't think much about the newbies. We'd have to be careful not to make that "First Time Buff" overpowered though. But I wouldn't give players the same buff in all of those first 10 matches. I'd make a buff which would get smaller each match and completely disappear after their 10th. This would probably prevent exploiters while still giving new players a better chance to understand how Lockdown works.

Wow, I just noticed that Lockdown doesn't have any tutorials... does it?

Mon, 01/09/2012 - 20:26

#16

Insanejesterking

Nope. no tutorial.

Lockdown is completely experienced based.
And you cant really gain any experiance or insight if you are killed outright. Seriously. Lockdown is almost totally anti-newb. Almost tragic. Poor newbs with their proto gear and watnot ToT

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 20:42

#17

Blue-Phaze

Ikr, too bad most new knights

Ikr, too bad most new knights don't even notice they're joining tier 2 matches. 2 star gear is as cheap as 1 star, thus making those knights buy tier 2 gear right away (I did that myself). But if they try to join Lockdown they'll find themselves in a room filled with all 3 stars gear, "wolver-flourish strikers". So I guess THAT is where the real problem is: Easy access to tier 2 for newbie players. I have no idea how to fix that though...

Anyone have ideas?

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 22:02

#18

Guyinshinyarmour

I mirror Juances' comment. Anyone can take all weapons types. The only way that could be fixed would be to force people to stick with only one type of weapon since otherwise everything would be down to who has the best variety of weapons. As for attack and defence types, that's already covered in the weapon and armour type you take.

I rather like the aspect of RPS classes though. It'd be nice if I, as a guardian, wasn't cut down by strikers so much. Sure, recons would destroy me, but at least people would play recon then. It'd promote teams to have a somewhat even split of classes. Seems most of the games I play everyone is striker. :|

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 23:13

#19

Blue-Phaze

Srsly?

"otherwise everything would be down to who has the best variety of weapons."
That's the point, I don't want ppl to use the same set over and over again. I don't want matches to be all alike. I want variety, and I'm not alone on this.
You're right, the best variety of weapons wouldn't make you win, but would help you a lot, promoting ppl to strategize their gear (Instead of playing only with Final Flourishes). I hope you got the point '-'

"No, this wouldn't make Recons kill all Guardians, neither all Swordsmen die to any Gunner. This is, again, just a balancing element, not a guarantee of win for those with an advantage." - As clearly stated in the OP...
Recons would not destroy you, they'd only have a slight buff.
(Is it that hard to understand?)

ty for the support though... I guess

You guys got anything else to say? Keep them comments coming ppl \0/ I REALLY appreciate feedback ^^
I mean it.
Srsly.
:3

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 10:23

#20

Blue-Phaze

10 replies....? wow, I give

10 replies....? wow, I give up. I was expecting a bit more feedback, but I guess this is too complex for most ppl '-'
This is my last bump.

....10 replies in 4 days... damn -.-

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 10:33

#21

Severage

Quote Blue-Phaze;

"....10 replies in 4 days..."

Behold, the neglection of the Suggestions forum.

I did read it though I didn't reply because I had no real feedback to add to it. I'm not a big PvPer so..

~Sev

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 10:40

#22

Abitathree

Without fixing the lag none

Without fixing the lag none of this will ever matter. I am a gunner and get hit from half my guns range away by sword strikes. While I have to guess where they really are because if i shoot someone directly in the face while they are moving i will miss. I need to hit them where they really are. So until that gets fixed its swords and bombs.

I play close to the servers location and have a full four bars and a solid 60 fps in game on low settings also. I am pretty much done with lockdown unless they make it playable for gunners. I can still do decent in lockdown but its just not fun getting hit from so far away constantly. If the lag is actually being halfway decent I can take down even the great strikers of the game with my play style. Umbra driver staying just outside of the sword range with striker. Problem is its impossible to guess what the swords range is.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 10:38

#23

Ylol

Im not sure if this feature

Im not sure if this feature would satisfy alot of pvpers, this would turn a match of skill into a match of luck. Im not saying pvp is exactly balanced, but im not sure this is a perfect way to go about fixing it.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 11:43

#24

Severage

I agree with Abitathree.

*chuckles and rhyming subject*

Really though, my FPS is very solid and Spiral Knights is one of the lower-end graphics quality games that I play. My internet is a good 20-30 Mbps, and yet gunners are still completely useless in PvP. The few times I tried it with my guns, I got destroyed by Gran Faust after Gran Faust after Divine Avenger because I couldn't hit them. Using Striker in PvP is overpowered with Faust/Avenger simply because the latency. They move faster than the internet realizes it, and then you're dead. /rant

But like I said before, without really testing this, I've no idea if this would be too much better than how it is currently.

~Sev

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 12:49

#25

Tsubasa-No-Me

not sure if this has been said....

Swords>Gunners>Bombers> (Swords) This bit i changed.... 'cause this is how it works... swords have a hard time getting to bomber, and they rush guns quite well... gunners interrupt bombers... just think of the gun puppys...

Striker>Recon>Guardian> (Striker)

Shadow > Elemental > Piercing > (Shadow)

The APs should be a hidden stat, similar to knockback and the like...

and Silversix would work like it does in the clockworks... pierce/ele deals well... normal to shadow, not very effective to ele, and super effective to peirce....

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 16:59

#26

Chris

Gunners are innate

Gunners are innate anti-bombers with the ability to cancel bomb charges from a distance with a single quick shot.
Bombers are innate anti-swordsman because they have a way to keep people away from them (stun bombs, shock bombs, freeze bombs, knockback bombs)
Swordsmen are not very anti-gunner, as a good gunner can avoid and disable a swordsman quite easily.

This is why swords are given more damage in spiral knights. They have more associated risk and are harder to use effectively without being killed.
The main problem is that there is a HUGE lack of skilled gunners in spiral knights as most skilled players play the swordsman role because it is so powerful (because there are few skilled gunners).

Skilled gunners shred everybody in lockdown

The main problem in lockdown is that recons are near obsolete because of how their shield is popped by any damage.
Another huge problem is that guardians have way too much offensive potential with asi bonuses etc.
One of the best ways to balance lockdown would be to give guardians a medium or higher asi PENALTY while buffing the shields on recons to not pop and stay popped from one hit by any weapon.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 18:13

#27

Abitathree

@Chris You would be correct

@Chris

You would be correct about gunners shredding mostly everything in lockdown except for the lag. No one plays them because you have to randomly guess where to aim. If i shoot your right in the face while you are moving the shot will not register. On the other hand your sword will hit me if you hit me on your screen. I have been killed countless times from a sword strike that I was clearly out of range by quite alot. Guns do not get this advantage.

Its incredibly hard to be good with a gun because of the horrible lag. The only time I ever connect with my gun is if someone keeps moving one direction then i shoot about two shots to the side they are moving. if they change direction the shot misses always. If you want to survive an alchemer shot just keep zig zagging. Shots from that gun will never hit you.

If they ever fix the lag to where swords have there normal range and guns actually connect where they are supposed to then alot more people will start using guns. I play as hawtpink and the only reason i constantly killed you is because you boosted towards me. If you just boosted in shorter intervals and changed you direction more I can not hit you. Strikers are easy targets because they are too aggressive and move in a straight line towards me.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 20:12

#28

Chris

If you have 50-150 latency

If you have 50-150 latency (if you have more you need to play on the proper server or upgrade your internet) you will have no problems with guns in pvp

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 21:18

#29

Abitathree

@Chris try pinging

@Chris

try pinging 184.73.168.101, that is a server on the amazon cluster very close to where spiral knights is located.

I get less than 50ms and still have lagging problems in Lockdown. I can fraps a video if you want on what it looks like. I am pretty sure you get hit by swords from ridiculous ranges sometimes. I really have to guess as to where to shoot people when they are moving. I can not stress enough that if I shoot directly at someone it WILL miss if they are moving. My bullet has to hit about one knight to the side of where they are on my screen.

All online games have ways to get around latency in pvp. This one does not try too hard.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 06:10

#30

Jontlemen

Even the best gunners would

Even the best gunners would probably be more effective as sword users. The netcode supports swords more, the classes support swords more, the armors support swords more, auto-aim supports swords more, ASI support swords more, and heart trinkets hurt guns more than they do swords.

Only reason to be a gunner is if you enjoy the style.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 09:45

#31

Abitathree

Just had to rage quit again.

Just had to rage quit again. Lag got so bad on one stage i could not hit anything without pure luck. Then again i was dying from sword strikes from nearly half my guns range. Why do I keep playing lockdown I do not know. And my ping is still super low. The only time lag is ok is when it is 4 on 4. If it is 8 on 8 I may as well just quit at the start.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 11:01

#32

Blue-Phaze

wow, thx for the feedback ppl ^^

I'll try to answer all of you.

@Ylol "this would turn a match of skill into a match of luck"
Not really... "This is, again, just a balancing element, not a guarantee of win for those with an advantage"
I hope you get this is a SMALL tweak. I don't want to turn LD into a one-hit kill warfare (although it is quite close to that currently).

@Severage "gunners are still completely useless in PvP" <-- We can fix that.
"LD exclusive tweaks would make things better; faster and stronger guns and bombs should give swordsmen a real challenge"

@Tsubasa-No-Me "Swords>Gunners>Bombers> (Swords)"
It was like that originally, untill I changed it due to Jontlemen's complaint. But I'll change it back because you make more sense.
About hidden APs, what do you think about hiding APs only from Tiers 2 and 3? Newbies need some help getting used to the system...
Regarding Silversix, sounds cool. I'll add that. Thanks ^^

@Chris "This is why swords are given more damage" <-- Problem is, they're given too much more damage.
"The main problem is that there is a HUGE lack of skilled gunners" <-- This would be fixed over time with encouraging nerfs.
"faster and stronger guns and bombs should give swordsmen a real challenge" With the right nerfs more ppl would try using guns.
About classes, No way to fix that if not with more tweaks. What do you think about slower strikers, lower ASI for guardians, and stronger shield for recons?

@Abitathree "If they ever fix the lag", "All online games have ways to get around latency in pvp"
You should know there is no way to "get around" latency neither "fix the lag"; it's physically impossible to make information travel faster through cables and servers and get to another computer in less time, to decrease your ping. All you can do is get yourself a better connection.
If you're experiencing lag that badly with less than 50ms, It's not the game's fault, you're just dealing with slow connection (laggy) players.
Personally, I always get 2 bars (dunno my ping exactly) but I don't have lag as bad as the way you describe yours.
Doesn't matter at all, we're not here to talk about latency '-' please, try to focus on the PvP revamp I am proposing.

@Jontlemen
Again, small Lockdown exclusive tweaks would fix that. A bit more damage and speed for gunners and bombers, for the sake of balance.

~Blue

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 11:19

#33

Trihelix

I have to agree with

I have to agree with Jontlemen on this one. If you gun in Lockdown, it's only because you enjoy a challenge. Any well-known Lockdown gunner's performance level would increase by quite a bit if you handed them Skolver armors and a Final Flourish. My friend and guildmate, Blueflood, is the best known Lockdown gunner on the game. He has a Youtube video of him getting 16,000 damage with a Striker, Umbra, and Hail Driver. He recently crafted a Skolver Coat and Flourish, and has already surpassed 20,000 damage with those two items.

The fact of the matter is, swords are far and away the supreme Lockdown weapons right now. I believe Chris said that swords were given better damage to accommodate for the lack of range. If the Striker class did not exist, this would work. Sadly, the movement speed bonus provided by the Striker makes the rapier lines broken in every meaning of the word. I have tried gunning versus other Strikers, and as soon as you are out of Striker boost, you're toast. You have no way to defend yourself at close range. The gunner's advantage is supposed to be being able to deal damage at low risk of being damaged themselves. This advantage disappears when a swordsman can close any distance with a simple left-click (or whatever you have block assigned to).

Giving guns a bit more damage won't solve their problems. The nerf needs to be dropped on the Striker class. Some ideas would include...

-Decreasing the movement speed bonus. Swordsmen would be hurt by this much worse than gunners, as fencing requires a lot more speed and movement.
-Remove the sword attack damage bonus from the Striker class. Guardian and Recon do not provide two bonuses to the same weapon class, which is part of the reason why swords are so broken.

Also, some gun buffs would be necessary as well...

+Replace the sword attack damage bonus on Striker with a gun attack damage bonus.
+Increase the hitbox size on the Alchemer line.

Thoughts?

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 13:03

#34

Abitathree

@Blue-Phaze The least the

@Blue-Phaze

The least the devolpers could do is make it so that whatever I hit on my screen actually happen to the enemy player. Thats what most online games do. I will leave your thread to what it is. But balancing guns does have alot to do with the way the game detects hits and there will never be more people using guns if it stays the same. And I am not talking about polaris spam or random sentenza spamming either. Alchemers can be one of the strongest pvp weapon in the game. The hit detection makes it not so and purely luck to hit stuff.

And you can tell how [crap] the server really is by how long it takes just this webpage to load.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 13:43

#35

Allunova

@Trihelix I think your ideas

@Trihelix I think your ideas go in the right direction.

The striker really does not need a speed nerf, but it is the only class that has INSTANT ability recharge. Another point is that if a recon gets statused by a haze bomb, their shield breaks instantly but the same does not happen for a striker as far as I know.

Swords are mostly OP because most knowledgable players use the Flourish or BTB as a primary weapon. The Flourish/BTB has an insanely OP(faster that most swords with the huge damage area of a troika) first swing that can be easily shield canceled. If they reduce the damage area of the flourish/BTB first swing to something similar to a cutter or calibur then the sword would still have upsides versus other swords in LD and in PVE but not be often completely game breaking.

So my idea of a balanced LD would be:

Most of what Trihelix suggested

What I suggested for nerfing the flourish/BTB

Removing Auto-aim completely from LD.

Done. Balanced.

/Discuss

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 13:49

#36

Stane

I think the current handicaps

I think the current handicaps for each class would be fine. If they just made weapons hit when it shows you're hitting the opponent, and make you miss when they were clearly out of your reach then the game would be balanced. You just gotta love when you connect a bullet on somebody and it doesn't do a thing to them, but a sealed sword can hit you when you're 2 squares away from it's reach.

Also it probably wouldn't be bad idea to strengthen some of the guns. I play alot of T2 LD so I'll use the magnus as an example. It's the strongest gun for Tier 2 but 1 shot from it does maybe 1.5 bars of damage to me while a flourish does 3 bars on 1 swing. For being such a strong gun with all that delay after each shot...it really needs to be improved as do all the other guns. Bullets are weak, easy to dodge, and their guns give more delay than swords do.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 15:54

#37

Jontlemen

How about: if you're a

How about: if you're a striker, and you get damaged while dashing, you lose part of your charge?
Wouldn't solve all the issues, but it would be a start.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 16:47

#38

Severage

Quoting Stane:

"I think the current handicaps for each class would be fine. If they just made weapons hit when it shows you're hitting the opponent, and make you miss when they were clearly out of your reach then the game would be balanced. You just gotta love when you connect a bullet on somebody and it doesn't do a thing to them, but a sealed sword can hit you when you're 2 squares away from it's reach.

My friend, you hit the nail on the head. I can't tell you how many times a Gran Faust has hit me 3 spaces away, or a Barbarous Thorn Blade attacked with a lunge that hits a distance 3 times the sword's.

I agree with the guns too, using them a bit myself, they're almost utterly useless unless you're shooting a bomber at long range to stop his charges. Of course, he could just pull out a Faust and you're done for, but hey you can stop the bombs.

"Punch" guns also seem to be practically useless in LD, because their fire rate is no match for a Striker with a sword, but since I've never seen someone use one effectively, I'm not sure how good their damage *would* be if you could hit people with them more often.

~Sev

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 18:29

#39

Nicoya-Kitty

All the guns in T1 do

All the guns in T1 do basically a meaningless amount of damage. I can hammer on a guardian all day with a pummel gun, which I believe has the highest DPS, and their shield won't break, whereas one combo from my Heavy Hatchet will take the shield down immediately.

Guns are pretty equally useless in T2. Alchemer bullets travel too slow and are easy to dodge, the Antigua does basically no damage, the Kilowatt is only really good for its shock status and the story doesn't get any better with the rest.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 19:49

#40

Jonathansiu

The problem with UVs could be

The problem with UVs could be easily done by creating two different tiers - t3 and t3.1 - and both are 5*. No UV is allowed in t3, while all kinds of UVs are allowed in t3.1. One problem is that not many people play LD nowadays, so dividing them up would make the population even smaller. Thus, an alternative would be keeping the t3 and allowing only ONE UV to be used, and other UVs would be neutralized.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 07:09

#41

Blue-Phaze

@Abitathree and Stane I agree

@Abitathree and Stane
I agree with dealing damage if you hit ppl on your screen. Although It would make more ppl get hit when they're already out of reach on their own screen, but it just seems more fair to me.

@Trihelix and Allunova
I agree with every single word you said.
Swords are given more dmg to compensate for the lack of range, but the striker class is fast enough to give swords their range back, leaving them with an unescessary damage buff. That's the main reason why swords are too overpowered...
I'm sure a simple decrease on that dmg would make LD much better, but ofc the whole communnity would whine about it.
Plan B, increase other weapons' damage a bit, and slow down the striker class (only a bit too). I'm sure it'd work.
I did suggest some tweaks for classes in my last post (@Chris), including slower strikers. But I haven't added to the OP yet.

Wow I just realized the main reason why LD is so unbalanced; The striker class is too fast and powerful (and combined with overpowered swords it's even worse). If the devs nerfed that, we'd have an incredible PvP in our hands. Gosh, such a simple tweak with enormous benefits...

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 18:05

#42

Skold-The-Drac

Adding...

Also suggesting devs provide a test of LD in a different fashion... where there's an LD armory and you choose your armors and weapons specific to LD. (Heck, it could be like the shop items and just the straight weapons/armors they already have, eliminate the UV's.)

Or when they choose a particular element to work with on the third triangle, they have a specific armory geared for that element?

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 19:25

#43

Blue-Phaze

You mean creating exclusive

You mean creating exclusive weapons for Lockdown? This would certainly unplease most of the players. They already have specific loadouts to use in LD matches. Plus it would be too much work for the Devs.

I just edited the OP. No concepts were changed, only their organization. I hope it's a bit more understandable now.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 03:53

#44

Arquebus

Bravo, but -1

Your "triple triangle" would probably be an excellent system for a different game, but it doesn't feel right for Spiral Knights. Much of this game's mechanical charm comes from how simple and elegant it is to figure out what does what, and adding several layers of opacity on top of that wouldn't do it any kind of service. Try it again in an MMO with a little more RPG in it... a project of your own, perhaps?

Anyway, other posters have hit the nails precisely on their heads in regard to what's really wrong with Lockdown: latency rewards swords and punishes guns, the Striker class makes swords have the effective range of guns, and the first sweep of Flourish-style swords is crazy. All of this together makes a perfect storm in which Strikers with Flourishes are going to dominate the metagame, which is exactly where we're at now. The latency issue is pretty much impossible to fix, and OOO is understandably conservative about nerfs for popular equipment, so our best hope probably lies in fiddling with the classes.

If I had my druthers, Striker would lose its damage bonus as well as a unit of ASI, and Recon would lose its gun ASI in favor of a Low damage bonus to both guns and swords, to make popping in and out of stealth a bit more viable. Guardian's fine as-is.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 04:30

#45

Zephyrgon

Wanna know how?

A) Nerf Wolver: it's the only armor set that provides increased damage. Make is ASI instead. This is why i think vog is pretty balanced.
B) Increase gun and bomb damage: guns and bombs do no damage at all. They should at least have a decent punch.
C) More Lockdown classes: tanky person with damage + support medic. Healing in lockdown isn't op since you have a clock.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 07:51

#46

Neodasus

sounds terriblenot even TF2

sounds terrible

not even TF2 is like this

no perk should have a distinct advantage over the other, maybe a little bit of an advantage (already exists)...but nothing that can't be fixed with advanced play

@ Chris

sorry man but I have to disagree, if they buffed recon shield any more I would be getting 20k every game

like I said earlier, these disadvantages (given to every class not just recon) can be overcome with a degree of skill

guardians have no mobility (actually having to time everything)

recons can be found easily (actually have to think)

strikers can be knocked back like ragdolls (have to time your attacks AND avoid theirs)

Everything that he wants already exists, he just hasn't played lockdown enough to realize it. Which seems to be a pattern with every single one of these threads...almost always ending with a F2P complaining about rising CE prices and some Chris hate is thrown in there somewhere.

The ONLY thing I actually want the devs to look into...THE ONLY THING is the phantom range caused by the striker boost with FF/BTB. I don't know if that is intentional or not, and they really need to look into it. If you have more than 150ping it actually gives you an advantage if you use auto target.

EDIT: OH yeah and LMAO @ the guy who says OOO needs to raise the skill floor for guns and lower the skill ceiling for swords. Every thread man...every thread.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 08:54

#47

Nodocchi

Guardians have a distinct

Guardians have a distinct advantage over Strikers. Anyone who has faced a skilled guardian or recon will tell you they are just as hard to beat if not harder to beat than skilled strikers. In addition, unskilled strikers are the easiest of the three classes to beat, a lot of people can easily get past survivability issues if they just pick guardian or recon.

Guns are not meant to deal comparable damage to swords, so comparing the damage of the two is a moot point. I highly doubt OOO actually intended people to play using exclusively one type of weapon. That is something people thought up themselves. People are supposed to carry a varied loadout with them, that is why Blueflood saw an increase in damage, because he had both a sword AND a gun, not just because he got a sword.

The OP's idea gives the advantage to people who can afford weapon slots. Someone with 4 weapon slots will have a much easier time switching to a weapon that gives them the most advantage against anyone he faces, while a person with two weapon slots will always have someone he is weak against and must either constantly return to the locker to switch loadouts or just die a lot.

On the topic of guns missing a lot, I don't think it is due to lag. The way Abitathree described it sounded like he/she was aiming directly at the person he/she wanted to hit. What you should be doing is aiming at where the person is going, because bullets take time to travel to their target. No bullets in this game are instantaneous, all of them have a bit of travel lag. Now while this is called lag, it is not internet lag, this lag is intentional and is meant to stop guns from being overpowered.

Final note: Strikers do not need a nerf, guardians and recons do not need a buff. For the love of God OOO do not give guardians a buff they are already ridiculously powerful.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 09:28

#48

Blue-Phaze

@ArquebusThanks, for once, a

@Arquebus
Thanks, for once, a negative but smart and readable reply.

@Neodasus
Listen, I appreciate your constructive' critiscism, but I failed to find some of your points...

"not even TF2 is like this"
Why would I use TF2 as a reference to SK? I never even mentioned it in this thread. -.-

"no perk should have a distinct advantage over the other"
Why not? Would it break the game or something? You showed nothing to support your opinion.

"nothing that can't be fixed with advanced play"
Are you assuming that two equally skilled players would have equal chances of winning, even though one is a striker and the other's a gunner?
That's not what really happens, and you know that.

Same here.
"these disadvantages can be overcome with a degree of skill"
You're just stating the obvious, anything can be overcomed with some skill.
Although, if two players are equally skilled but one has a serious advantage over the other (FF Strikers > All), then you've got a problem and it's called imbalance.

"ending with a F2P complaining about rising CE prices"
wtf are you talking about? '-' I may be F2P but never said anything against CE prices. I never even mentioned it in this thread (again).

"they really need to look into it. If you have more than 150ping it actually gives you an advantage if you use auto target."
The devs can do nothing about the delay between your computer and their servers (the ping between them) because it's physically impossible to send them your client information faster.
It's just not their fault, stop blaming them.

EDIT:
@Nodocchi
If strikers don't need nerfs neither guardians and recons need a buff, then why is LD so unbalanced?
Skill does influence on this, but the differences between some loadouts are just too expressive for skill to be the only factor involved on that. There MUST be something other than skill unbalancing the game.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 13:27

#49

Neodasus

"Are you assuming that two

"Are you assuming that two equally skilled players would have equal chances of winning, even though one is a striker and the other's a gunner?
That's not what really happens, and you know that."

I've seen it go either way, no matter what your perk is. The only thing this thread proves is that there needs to be some sort of LD tutorial system so that maybe people like you would understand the mechanics of LD.

I have never flat out lost to a striker using final flourish/btb exclusively. Just to make this clear I'll be releasing a video mid-march on how easily strikers can be thrown around. This is why most strikers are now using argent peacemakers, to compensate for this weakness.

If you had any experience playing LD you would know this.

@Nodocchi

That is my point exactly man. Who will win 95% of the time?

A player that actually knows frame data and combos?

Or a button masher?

EDIT: You need to think of LD as a fighting game, every animation has frame data that you can take advantage of. It's really something you need to experience yourself, but I'm just telling you man...play a bit more and once you gain enough experience then maybe you'll understand how balanced LD really is.

You are right about one thing though, you have too many inexperienced players meshed in with skilled ones. The inexperienced ones don't really have this opportunity to learn about the mechanics of LD because they spend half the game dead. This is why we need permanent rankings based on a win/loss ratio (match-ups basked on rankings), and a comprehensive LD tutorial to solve this problem. I really hope the devs skim this thread...because this needs to happen.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 13:26

#50

Chris

Guardians currently slam

Guardians currently slam striker when played correctly.

The only things that need to be done to lockdown to balance it PERFECTLY are:

Recons get increased cap rates
Guardians get decreased asi rather than increased

/thread

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PvP revamped: How to make Lockdown perfectly balanced