Spiral Knights - Dragon Scale?

Dragon Scale?

22 replies [Last post]

Mon, 01/09/2012 - 20:19

Darkbrady

In my very early days, I started crafting a Wyvern, and worked it to Dragonscale, knowing that FSC was gunna be a heavily fire based stratum, but ever since starting spamming FSC, I can never help but feel that Gray Owlite really does just do the job better.

It's hard to compare stats, becasue the "blocks" on a stat on a weapon vary so much (for example, Glacius and Khorovod both have full blocks in their stats, but the Khorovod vastly outdamages the Glacius) so i always just expected the health of dragonscale to be comparable, but at the very least the fire resistance would be far, far higher (y'know, being DRAGON scale shield and it being on fire and such) but as things go I just can't really find anywhere that I'd rather use my Dragonscale than my Gray, which is a shame becasue I really like my Dragonscale, had it since before I stopped for a few months and...well, it looks awesome; I'd like to be able to use it more but can't help feel it's one of those broken items that just aren't worth having.

Opinions?

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 01:35

Xairathan

Dragon scale

I have both shields, and I constantly use Grey Owlite for FSC. I think, due to having no normal resist, the Dragon would be better suited for Beast strata, or such. I personally use the Dragon Scale for Shadow Lairs such as Rabid Snarby and Ice Queen, but for FSC... not really.

Edit: I should say that my Dragon Set is UV'd, which gives it extra bonus defenses against Shadow/Freeze, etc.

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 01:32

Fradow

Dragon Scale is considered

Dragon Scale is considered sub-par because it doesn't have any normal defense (even in T3, a lot of attacks do normal damage), and because you rarely need elemental and piercing at the same time.

Using it for Shadow Lair is a bad idea too. In Rabid Snarby Lair, the most common and deadly enemies are undeads, which do normal/shadow/poison : Dragon Scale protects for none of that. For Ice Queen, it's normal/piercing/freeze : there are shield which do both normal and piercing, making Dragon Scale a sub-par choice too.

But Dragon Scale looks ultra cool, at least.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 08:23

Bluescreenofdeath

hmmmm

"the Khorovod vastly outdamages the Glacius"... how do you figure? This is so so many kinds of wrong I don't know where to start. First you are comparing a 4* to a 5* which is not a fair comparison. The 5* version of the Khorovod is the Sudaruska.

Numbers at D28 of stratum 6 (cpm measured using ASI Med)

Sudaruska
DMG vs All Swing 1 = 258 Swing 2 = 321 Total Combo 579 Combos per minute = 32 Damage per second = 309

Glacius
DMG vs Weak Swing 1 = 292 Swing 2 = 292 Swing 3 = 382 Total Combo 966 Combos per minute = 34 Damage per second = 547
DMG vs Neut Swing 1 = 203 Swing 2 = 203 Swing 3 = 292 Total Combo 698 Combos per minute = 34 Damage per second = 396
DMG vs Strg Swing 1 = 135 Swing 2 = 135 Swing 3 = 185 Total Combo 455 Combos per minute = 34 Damage per second = 258

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 08:48

Fronslin

Lol, I would love to see a

Lol, I would love to see a dragon set change, It looks cool but you hardly will see it... because it is Sub par
just finsihed it as my first set the other day, but now that a look at it I might need to make an adjustment, im attached to the shield though, made the unfortaneate mishap of getting a good UV set on it of elemental max and shadow med

Looks cool though, i can be a fireplace in haven

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 09:00

Darkbrady

@Blue: You completely took

@Blue:
You completely took what I said out of context. I was talking about the arbitrary values of blocks in stat boxes, which can be the same as other weapons and have different ultimate values; in this sense, yes the khorovod (yes, the 4* one) will vastly outdamage the 5* glacius. One swing each, even the 4* will far outdamage that of a faster sword. I'm aware I was using the 4* vs. the 5*, but that was to emphasise my point.
You're talking about overall dps, which has no relevance to my point. Try and keep to the context of what I said before you go away and do calculations to try and prove a point.

@Fronslin:
Yeah, I absolutely love my Dragonscale shield, was my first high *d piece of gear, but I've come to terms with the fact that it's just not good enough. I recently tried using it in my JK setup, then was reminded that they came out with BTS which just trashes it. It's a shame, but short of a fashion shield, I've given up on my baby :(

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 09:23

Bopp

actually, Blue was not out of context

Actually, Blue's comment was not out of context. When we look at the damage bar on a weapon, we have no idea of whether that is supposed to be rating the damage per swing or the damage per second. You're assuming the former, but we don't have any evidence that that's the correct interpretation, do we? Blue was offering an alternative interpretation, that made the damage bar not-crazy.

But you are right in general, that the statistic bars on weapons are highly suspect.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 09:33

Darkbrady

If the "damage" bar was a

If the "damage" bar was a value for dps then
a/ it shouldn't be called damage
b/ there'd be no need for a speed bar
c/ then the glacius should have higher blocks than khorovod.
d/ if that was the case, then weapons with similar damage/speed stats should have similar dps, too, but FoV and Glacius have different damages, despite having very similar stat blocks.
However, feel free to prove me wrong. Would be interested to see how that solution works on shields/armour, though.

Being petty aside, though, if Blue was actually meaning that then there's far better ways to go about offering alternative explanations than "that is so many kinds of wrong (implying fact, btw; NOT an opinion or alternative) that I don't even know where to start". Jus' sayin'.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 09:43

Bopp

not convinced

I'm not convinced that "damage" meaning "damage per swing" makes any more sense than "damage" meaning "damage per second". There would still be a need for a speed bar, because speed greatly influences your play. Your other points are reasonable. I'm not really interested in debating the details of the notoriously inaccurate statistics bars, in the end. Cheers.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 10:08

Darkbrady

I always took it to mean

I always took it to mean "damage per hit" since there is a speed bar to compare it to. I take the vastly arbitraty figures to be more of a "this weapon in it's own right has x compared to y" rather than "this weapon's x = that weapon's y", in which case the entire stat box system of the game is flawed, whereas self-comparison makes as much sense as I can imagine for the stats. If it's anything other, it's beyond me.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 14:00

#10

Bluescreenofdeath

Sudruska doesn't vastly out damage the Glacius (let alone Khor)

Even not looking at DPS your statement is false. Look at Swing 1 for example 5* Sud vs 5* Brand. The Bradish does more damage, slightly less damage, or more damage depending on the target. Look at the total combo damage and this is even more pronounced.

Numbers at D28 of stratum 6 (abbreviated version of above chart)

Sudaruska
DMG vs All: Total Combo = 579

Glacius
DMG vs Weak: Total Combo = 966
DMG vs Neut: Total Combo = 698
DMG vs Strg: Total Combo = 455

^ See the Glacius wins big time vs weak, still wins significantly vs neutral, and loses vs strong. A 5* Sudruska doesn't vastly out damage the Glacius. Not even close, let alone a 4* Khorovod.

I would think damage per combo would be the best way to intemperate the bars (which can and do lie, FoV & GF attack speed are prime examples). Though this doesn't take into account charge, so I think damage bars are probably not meant to be more then vague representations anyway.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 14:26

#11

Darkbrady

Also, not talking about

Also, not talking about combos, talking about one single hit. I have actually used both weapons myself, and the khorovod hits harder than a glacius. have you ignored my past two posts? I'm not interested in DPS or DPCombo, or Combos per minute, or speed, or style or how cool it looks; none of that has absolutely anything to do with what I said, which is that the stat blocks are comparitive to the weapons own stats, and not other weapons with equal blocks, meaning that they're arbitrary enough that you can't compare actual stats from various weapons, thusly I couldn't tell if the Dragonscale health/defence/fire res was actually more than Gray Owlite or not.

I mean , you brought up a dead topic to derail it on two different levels.
The glacius/khorovod was an example; the main point was about the shields, don't be nitpicky.
The example was based on single stat blocks, not on overall damage or effectiveness in the CWs and its everday use.

Are you just...trying to prove me wrong about something, or are you honestly just not paying attention at all to what I'm saying?

EDIT:
Hopefully this will let you see my point, and drop the issue since you're either being difficult and trying to start something, or just completely misunderstanding my explanations.

Here is a 5* Glacius taking a first-swing attack at a slimepuppy:
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198037789255/screenshot/65100258...?

And here is a 4* Khorovod taking the first-swing attack at the same Slimepuppy:
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198037789255/screenshot/65100258...

Exact same armour, exact same bonuses on both, exact same enemy, no type modifiers, nothing. The khorovod is presenting with higher base damage, despite both of their statboxes giving the same value in "attack" blocks. This has nothing to do with dps, or combos or charges or final attacks, it is quite literally just the two of those attacks that counts towards my long-resolved point.

EDIT2:
To not sound like I'm just beng some bitter jackass, I am actually paying attention to your point, too, I'm just not sure if I agree with how you think they work.
As far as the representation bars go, I've just come to conclude that they're only meat to be used to compare against an items own stats. For example, a khorovod has very high attack, and very low speed; the gap simply there to show the kind of gap you'll be looking at in terms of the difference. For armour and shields and such, just to say "this type of defence is HUGE, while this other type is like less than half that", but not at all intended to actually be compared against other items.
The Glacius and FoV being a prime example of that, in fact. The difference between the speed and damage ratings of both work out at roughly the same percentages as each other, due to the fact that the glacius has more attack and hits faster. If we were to see a universal, specific scale, then (let's use arbitrary example numbers, here) Glacius would clock up at 10/5, whereas the FoV would work out at 8/3. Both stats are lower (FoV hits for less, and slower) but the actual percentage based difference between the stats is the same/similar, so on the statboxes works out as having the same values.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 15:21

#12

Bluescreenofdeath

Ok really did not mean to put

Ok really did not mean to put this much effort into this. From my point of view, your screenshots only prove my point that the Khorvod does not out damage the Glacius.

137 and 139 are not significantly different. The extra ~1% damage will not result in a faster kill & the brandish will still even using 1 swing shield canceling finish off the polyp faster if it takes more then 1 swing to kill. Depth 9 is not a great depth for comparison because both blades are so heavily nerfed that shallow. Also, you are comparing an Elemental weapon to a neutral enemy (Slime). If that Polyp was a Gunpuppy instead the Glacius would do significantly more damage. However, if the enemy was a beast then the Glacius would do significantly less damage.

One point I will whole-hearted agree with you on is that the bars in this game are almost total garbage and not to be trusted.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 15:33

#13

Darkbrady

*sigh* You just completely

*sigh*

You just completely ignored absolutely everything I said, didn't you?

No, my screenshots definitively prove that what I am saying is in fact, true. The khorovd outdamages the glacius. It does not out-dps it, that is utterly, entirely irrelevant. We are not talking about dps or how fast you can kill something. Idc whether the glacius would get the faster kill, it is utterly contrary to my point. Stop ignoring me, stop taking it out of context. By this point I honestly think you're just trolling 'cuz you're bored, there's absolutely no way I can explain it this many different ways and have you still thinking the exact same thing.
And I picked a slime for the target to make sure that both attacks would be neutral. I am, in fact, aware of type damage bonuses and that I could increase/decrease damage with the glacius. It has nothing to do with my point though; yet another derail.

And no, I did not say that it's "total garbage and not to be trusted" I gave a feasible explanation on what the bars potentially mean that actually fits with everything I've witnessed in game, and makes sense to eveyrthing I've tried out ad found. I said the complete opposite; that they're arbitrary, but logical and are to be trusted, j,ust not in the way you expect.

YOU didn't want to put this much effort in? I'm being trolled on a dead topic having to explain something to someone who's completely ignoring me here, I'm puttin' in more effort than I ever should have to, hell I even went to the effort of getting screenshots to explain and further illustrate my point.

Let me put it this way:
"your point of view" is irrelevant to my point. You took something I said, twisted it completely out of context, and started talking about "your point of view" which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Until you can understand what I am talking about, just forget your point of view, becaue it has nothing to do with this discussion.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 15:38

#14

Trying

Neutral damage and normal

Neutral damage and normal damage are 2 different things

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 15:38

#15

Bluescreenofdeath

Ok I will actually read the

Ok I will actually read the rest of your post #13 later no time at the moment, but are you actually still arguing that 137 vs 139 is a significant difference?

Did you read the part where I said that was a poor depth to test at? If you did the same test at D28 you would different numbers because both weapons would no longer be nerfed. Did you read the part where I said that is not good to compare only Elemental vs Neutral? and not think about Strong? and Weak?

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 15:43

#16

Darkbrady

Yeah, well what can I do?

@Trying:
Yeah, well what can I do? It's hard to get an exact comparison here, it was just mean to be a quick illustration of what I was originally meaning, which has...derailed into so many tangents by now it's just made my head spin. It's close enough, I don't feel like goin' off on a whole new tangent that's even more irrelevant.

@Blue:
You can't say "I'll reda the rest of your post later" then slate me for not commenting on yours. I actually did read all of that, and commented on all of it, largely telling you how it's still utterly irrelevant. I'm not talking about something being a significant difiference, I'm talking about it being a difiference at all, one which will only server to increase the deeper into teh clockworks, but I really, really didn't feel like goin' to D28 just to get two more screenies of the khorovod dealing even higher damage just to explain the very orignial point which you have been utterly ignoring.

I am NOT talking about combos, dps, killtimes, combos per minute, damage per combo or anything. I am LITERALLY only talking about swing1 damage vs. swing1 damage. No other swings, no combos, no killtimes, nothing. If you cannot actually take the time to read what I have to say, I give up on trying to explain to you. Take the time, /read/.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 16:11

#17

Bopp

292 and 203 vs. 258

Blue, Darkbrady is talking about the damage on the first hit, and nothing else. For Sudaruska, it's 258. For Glacius, it's 292 against preferred enemies (the ones that you usually use Glacius on), and 203 against neutral enemies (which I guess is what Darkbrady is using).

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 19:46

#18

Bluescreenofdeath

OK, hey sorry had to go. Read

OK, hey sorry had to go. Read the rest and we still appear to be at an impasse. I get that you are talking about 1st swing, and everything I have said previously still stands. This statement:

"for example, Glacius and Khorovod both have full blocks in their stats, but the Khorovod vastly outdamages the Glacius"

is false even for first swings unless you set up conditions along the lines of, in Tier 1 vs Gremlin or Slime comparing only a single swing. Then that statement would be true. You are arguing about that 137 vs 139 constitues "vastly outdamages". This is a bit silly.

Lol, I took another look at the bars for the Glacius and the Khorovod and they are not both full (so that part of the statement is inaccurate as well). The Glacius's bars (fully heated) only go to the "O" of NORMAL while the Khorvod's bar goes all the way to the end past the "L" of NORMAL (after full heat). Then again the Glacius has 2 damage bars, NORMAL and ELEMENTAL, so how do you even compare that? Which brings me back to the bars are almost worthless for comparing one weapon to another (which I believe has already been mentioned in this thread).

Also, its starting to look a bit like graveyard time...

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 01:03

#19

Darkbrady

a/ we're only at an impasse

a/ we're only at an impasse because you're completely ignoring me. My point is correct. Your point, while correct, is invalid and irrelevant.
b/ you guess? I've only said it..what 15 times? Want me to go back and count for you? I have actually said those exact words, after all...
c/ is not false, it's true, get over it.
d/ It does outdamage it. The only reason the damage is so slight in my screenies is becasue, as you mentioned it's on D9, where both weapons are nerfed. Deeped in, the damages on both will increase, and as such, the damage /difference/ will increase, leading to a much vaster damage separation.
e/ It was never meant to be exact, it was meant to be a "bars with similar/exact stats can have different damages". Literally as simple as that; it was an example towards a completely different points. You're being pedantic about it, derailing it and going off on a tangent, completely taking what I said out on context and then deciding to be picky because /you/ chose to twist everything. Absolutely none of this matters, or is relevant, or even interesting anymore. The only interesting part was about the potential usage of the bars and you completely ignored my idea on how they work as well, so so far you've done nothing my ignore and annoy me.
f/ Starting? It looked like it was dead before you brought it back up and twisted the context of an example....

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 06:41

#20

Bopp

Darkbrady

Darkbrady, did you ignore my post? Do you want to compare 258 to 292, or do you want to compare 258 to 203?

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 07:55

#21

Darkbrady

@Bopp: "And I picked a slime

@Bopp:

"And I picked a slime for the target to make sure that both attacks would be neutral. I am, in fact, aware of type damage bonuses and that I could increase/decrease damage with the glacius. It has nothing to do with my point though; yet another derail."

Already commented on it, before you posted. I know that things are varied when attacking preferred enemies, but that was besides my point, especially since my example that was taken far too seriously was a normal type weapon that would never have orange damage rolls; it wouldn't exactly be fair to compare it against a weapon that had super-effective hits; I wanted to keep both of them at least neutral.

It was, after all, just a passing mention of the stat boxes' relative values, not specific to their super-effective traits, but their base amounts.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 08:10

#22

Bopp

no real disagreement here

Okay. There's no real disagreement here. We can all read the numbers on the wiki. I'm done. Cheers.

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