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[Video] RJP / Bombs: Vortex Pointers

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Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady

What originally started as a quick video-grab of a couple of Vortex uses just to show/explain that Vortexes can actually be used as a viable damage bomb option (due to the astounding number of people wanting shadow bombs since they (wrongly) think the current one just isnae good enough) turned into something much larger after I realised how much footage I had actually collected while doing the run.

This video is just the highlights and certain video-grabbed sections of the run. It doesn't include JK himself, as I just cheatily FoV'd his ass (which is the reason why I use FoV in the video, over Acheron).

It was just a quick run and I wasn't wearing my proper JK loadout, so there are some mistakes and screw-ups (especially so with the lag issue upon setting the record; Fraps is just absolutely not nice to your CPU!!), but realised that they could be used as "whatnot2do" examples as well.

This isn't a pro/expert/besteva video, and I certainly don't claim to be the best bomber, or even one of, but I know what I'm doing and can fit in well with any team I join, most people pleasantly surprised at my bombs (including Nitros) rather than annoyed. This is just here from the perspective of someone who enjoys using bombs more than swords/guns and would like to see less bombers who do it wrong, or who feel that the current selection isn't enough, when, as far as I see it, bombers have the best weapon selection overall.

This video specifically focuses on Vortexes (mainly graviton, being RJP) and has a brief mention of Electron, and DBB. Might make more videos at another time bouncing around different bombs and tactics, but right now, Graviton it is, aimed directly at the people who think that bombers are useless against slimes, or that Vortexes are just useless.

Hopefully this well help some up and coming bombers, and encourage effective usage of Vortexes :)

RJP Vortexes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNf3qmJP_tQ&feature=youtu.be

Bombs: A Demo
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/40694

Portrait de Demonicsothe
Demonicsothe
/approve

/approve

Portrait de Fradow
Fradow
Very nice video. Just a

Very nice video.

Just a question : why don't you use the shock bomb instead of fire with graviton ? It does more damage on huge crowds (especially since they are packed by the graviton) and can prevent the fling effect, thus less flying attacking mobs (happen all the time in party :/).

Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
Yeah, I prefer dropping fire

Yeah, I prefer dropping fire just to leave DoTs on crowds, shock would be much nicer for the graviton combo, but my VT is still only 4* (can't find the recipe anywhere :( ), so I tend to find that Ash works nicer, just from easier placements. Sayin' that, for solo bombing, it really makes little difference which you use; the fling effect doesn't bother me too much because they all fly straight back towards me and funnel into the new vortexes.
For solo, definitely.
For groups it tends to be a bit trickier, if people aren't aware of the strategy, VT does tend to be better in group work.
When I get my VT to 5*, i'll definitely be using that more often though

Portrait de Bopp
Bopp
quite nice

The video showed plenty of examples, with pithy, useful, frequent commentary. Very nice. Thank you.

I have one question. In RJP you tended to maintain a pretty low level of health, perhaps because you weren't being careful. How much more carefully would you have to play, to incur no damage at all on depth 16? Is it a reasonable goal for a bomber? It seems hard to charge a bomb near a giant lichen, in particular.

Portrait de Fradow
Fradow
From my point of view (I'm

From my point of view (I'm not the most experienced bombers, but i bomb a lot in RJP) :
- with haze bombs, the hardest thing is to avoid spikes from the ground, because you don't see them that well. Evading the rest of mobs is easy (unless teamates screw you up) : just don't stop, they will always attack at the position you where a second ago (not where you were when they started for jellies, but still behind you). Try to not drop a bomb when a jelly is attacking, hold it until you dodge.
- with vortex, it's a whole lot harder (or i'm probably not experienced enough). Spikes are not going to be dangerous because you'll see them clearly. The problem is mobs attacking before being in the vortex, or lumbers with their long reach. They will have very unpredictable attacks due to the succion. Once they are in the vortex, if you have sufficient CTR and don't go too close (you can still go very close, as long as you don't stay until the attack), they will always be in a Vortex, thus not being dangerous.

As for giant lichen ... any bomber should have a gun or sword to deal with them. I guess the OP use FoV for that. Bombs are not really meant to deal with big huge mass of hp. Same goes for puppies (unless you use RSS, but a sword or gun is still faster).

To actually answer the question, i would say it's feasible, but hard. I'm biased due to being primary a swordsman, I find it easier to dodge/shield everything with swords (knockback help a lot).

Portrait de Tom-Awsm
Tom-Awsm
I see no problem in using

I see no problem in using only an Ash of Agni on slimes. From your video it seems like you have to get a lot closer to place them correctly, resulting in getting hit rather frequently, while with AoA you can just kite.

Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
Should really have recorded

EDIT:
Holy crap, I rambled on far more than I expected e.e....
TL;DR?
Took more damage because I was wearing the wrong set, mainly. Wasn't focussing on a perfect run, just getting the footage. Will next time.
Confined areas are dangerous for bombers, they need to move around a lot. Vortex solves many of these issues.
Single giant lichens; use nitro, guns, swords, not vortexes/hazes.
Slime spikes are a dastardly attack in RJP/Slimeways that you grow to forget about with vortexes making your life safe; keep them in mind.
Vortexes will never interrupt attacks, so time carefully.
Plant vortexes by ducking in and out quickly, timed accordingly.

Should really have recorded this in my JK Loadout, woulda made more sense..shame I wasnae thinkin'! Next one I'll put more effort into it beforehand; this was honestly originally meant as a "get in, take a shot of a vortex, leave". x.x

@Bopp:
My hp was quite low, as I stated in my OP. I did screw up a few times and wasn't carrying my proper armour loadout, so my damage intake was far higher than I was actually used to, which threw me off a bit. When I use my proper loadout it's very realistic (even solo) to walk through the entire RJP with minimal contact.
The two rooms on the right in Runaround are kinda tricky as a bomber as you're left with little space to manoeuvre , but I find that vortexes are always the answer to confined spaces, dragging all the mobs into controlled grouping.
Giant lichens, are tricky with pure bombs; Nitro actually does a very good job on them (and, in my experience is probably /the/ safest way to kill them, short of well-used guns) but takes a lot longer than swords. On that video I did use my FoV to finish him, but using the hazes to drop shock/fire can and will speed things up for you. Vortexes can be used to keep him in a corner or something, but otherwise have limited use against a single giant lichen. The main goal is usually to damage him as much as possible while you clear the other mobs, then bring out the utility sword or nitro.

@Fradow...or Bopp, I think...replying..at Fradow...to Bopp? Idk! D:
Spikes are generally the problem yeah, especially in the first checkered spike room to the left in the Garden; a bombers primary objective to keep on their toes at all times, stopping is never the answer, so in an area surrounding you with spikes and forcing you to stop, generally is when you take damage, unless you're good with your utility sword.
As for Slime Spikes (which I just realised that you probably meant that to begin with!) yeah, I definitely find them the trickiest of all mob attacks (even lumber swings can be avoided while charging vortexes), becuase any of your bombs will obscure it and even the charging bomb above your head can make them harder to see. The main issue is that I focus all my attention on where the vortex/mobs are, and where they're about to be. I can do this because generally all mobs are in the vortex and you're otherwise unattackable, but in RJP/Slimeways they can sneak in Spikes underfoot, and I let myself get caught by that more often than I'd like to admit.
Hazes would cause more problems in RJP, but I never tend to use them in an area that would obstruct my vision much, I like dragging things away to vortex them, so that issue can be avoided.

Spot on about the vortex though; a mob that telegraphs the attack *right* before they get sucked in, will continue the attack and unleash it at the point. This is also true for when they're inside the vortex and get thrown outwards; the vortex will do nothing to interrupt attacks at all, leading to some timing issues.
The trick is generally just to duck in and out and in and out. Have the bomb charged and drop the bomb right *in front* of their faces (so when they move to chase you, they don't pass it completely, ofc), then take a hearty step back to avoid attacks. WHen the next bomb charges, duck in and place it square in front of them again, leaving little/no room, and run back out of range.
You can see me timing this badly at the Scuttles on the mech mile and the top-left room in runaround, where I respectively walk in right as a scuttle attacks, and stay in the rad for too long and get caught in the suction (which is a potential killer in T3). Gotta just get in and out fast and you should never take any damage.

@Tom:
My shock haze is only 4* still, so the rad is far smaller. The 5* VT is the same rad as AoA, letting you freely choose depending on the situation. I enjoy fire for solos, but shock is safer/more group-friendly for teams

Portrait de Imperialstriker
Imperialstriker
Love this

I recently investing a Gravitron Charge, so this is encouraging news.

My only question is, how to go about using the lower starred versions of the vortexes? (Seeing as currently all I have is this grav charge...)

I remember reading somewhere that the lower starred versions are alot harder to use or something along those lines.

Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
They definitely are. To be

They definitely are. To be brutally honest, I wouldn't even bother using the 3* one, the damage is low, the rad is very small and getting it to +10 for teh CTR won't be worth it.
However, the 4* versions are usable. I used my 4* vortexes for a long time before I found the 5* recipes and it played very well for me. The damage difference is noticable, but on a small scale; it won't slow you down much.
The real difference is the vortex size. The rad size doesn't actually show up as any larger/smaller between the bombs, but when the graphic plays, you see that the gravity effect reaches far beyond what it shows.
However, this is to a degree that it's generally redundant unless you're planting the bomb in the centre of a room, and running to the side.

By planting bombs at choke points and when you have mobs congo-line'd, you'll probably never notice a major difference in the rad size.

Basically, they get used in the same ways, you just have to be slightly more accuracte with positionings, and have to risk yourself a bit more when planting in their face. However, odds are you'll never notice a problem until *after* you've got used to using the 5* version and go back to a 4* one. When you've never touched the 5* bombs, the 4*s are just fine, it's all about what you're used to :)

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise about vortexes btw. Electrons are more popular because of the shock, but against slimes/gremlins, Graviton has is a real difference in damage that pays off (letting you use fewer bombs).
Anyone in a party will love you for using vortexes because of the all-round benefits they hold, so never let someone tell you that "vortexes" aren't worth it, or can't be used for damage or any such :)

Portrait de Alice-In-Pyroland
Alice-In-Pyroland
I have one question. In RJP

I have one question. In RJP you tended to maintain a pretty low level of health, perhaps because you weren't being careful. How much more carefully would you have to play, to incur no damage at all on depth 16? Is it a reasonable goal for a bomber? It seems hard to charge a bomb near a giant lichen, in particular.

It's extremely easy to get through RJP without damage as a bomber, since status spamming obliterates slimes. Ash + Tempest alone will eat most the stratum alive, all you really need to worry about is kiting in the rooms full of spikes. Well positioned vortexes make this even easier, and you can always take a Nitro if you aren't entirely confident in kiting.

As for Giant Lichens, statusing them is generally the best way to handle them if you don't have a Nitro on hand. You can lead them into RSS, but that takes quite a bit of practice and if you're worried about them in the first place you're probably better sticking to the safe, if slow methods of dealing with them. Of course if you aren't pure-bombing a sword or a gun can handle them quite efficently.

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise about Gravi vortexes btw. Electrons are more popular because of the shock, but against slimes/gremlins there is a real difference in damage that pays off (letting you use fewer bombs) and anyone in parties will love you for it.

The difference in damage is neglible in larger parties, people love vortex in a group due to its utility and although vortex damage speeds things up, a few well timed max dmg charge attacks from your team and often whatever is in the vortex is dead irrespective of the vortex damage itself. The damage difference matters when soloing or duoing, but in larger groups your party isn't going to explicity express any additional joy due to you choosing Gravi, especially when the shock from Electron has immense utility in making sure mobs don't get flung all over the place if something doesn't go quite right.

Otherwise this is a decent enough guide, you should add it to the Bombing Guide up on the wiki. I expect more videos in the future, you had better not dissapoint!

Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
"The difference in damage is

The difference in damage is neglible in larger parties, people love vortex in a group due to its utility and although vortex damage speeds things up, a few well timed max dmg charge attacks from your team and often whatever is in the vortex is dead irrespective of the vortex damage itself. The damage difference matters when soloing or duoing, but in larger groups your party isn't going to explicity express any additional joy due to you choosing Gravi, especially when the shock from Electron has immense utility in making sure mobs don't get flung all over the place if something doesn't go quite right.

I should have been more clear on that, yeah; in 3~4 man parties the damage difference does still apply, but typically is mitigated simply by people taking the vortex'd group and attacking them outside the rad before the 'splosion.
Solo/Duo (the way I usually play, just me & my gf, so I tend to bias things towards that) the damage will count for a lot more. If you're using statuses during/before the vortexes, then losing out on the electrons shock should be irrelevant, if you already dropped a VT beforehand. Especially useful if your party uses sword weapons that don't KB them out of the vortex, but that's terrible for PuGs; good for guilds or friend parties though, that are aware of the overall tactic.

EDIT: Oh! Just realised what you'll have been on aobut, the "will love you for it" bit, I expect? That was a comment more on vortexes as a whole ("anyone in parties will love you for using vortexes") and I just re-read that and realised it came off as me saying that the parties would love you from the extra damage; total wording fail on my part; will go edit that!

Bombing Guide up on the wiki. I expect more videos in the future, you had better not dissapoint!

Steam users can't edit the wiki, afaik (correct me if I'm wrong, ofc). I was just gunna wait till I'd made a few videos and just make a post somewhere and update it, let it necro away and link it when relevant, but poppin' them in the wiki works too! :D
And I definitely intend to make more, t'was great fun puttin' that together, altough it is pretty patchwork, considering it was all unintended and just wound up accidentallying itself into a full-blown guide! xD
Next one I make will hopefully be more carefully planned out, and come together nicely; already got my plan for what it'll be :)

Portrait de Alice-In-Pyroland
Alice-In-Pyroland
Formatting Or if you to not

Formatting Or if you want to know how to italicize specifically you want 'em' tags.

Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
Edited my last post, realised

Edited my last post, realised I might have misworded somethin' and caused confusion.
As for the format link, thank-you. Only took seeing the link for me to be able to find the link myself! xD

Portrait de Bopp
Bopp
just to clarify

Just to clarify, when I asked about bombing through RJP depth 16 with no damage, I was specifically talking about Darkbrady's vortex tactics. I myself use Ash of Agni heavily in RJP, and I agree that it mows things down and is very safe for the user.

Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
Oh yeah, s'easy to do RJP

Oh yeah, s'easy to do RJP with vortexes and keep damage to a bare minimum. I'll do a run later and grab some footage of my proper loadout for it. The Fraps recording still lags me, but I'm sure I can push through that still w/o too many problems.

But given no lag-related complications or general laziness, using vortexes can be extremely safe, if you keep an eye on their attack telegraphs. With everything bundled into a vortex while you stand nearby, nothing can ever really get a hit in unless you get too close, or improperly time stuff.

Portrait de Imperialstriker
Imperialstriker
One more question

Been trying out the charge today (u gotta heat it to upgrade it).

I've noticed I've sometimes very accidentally (usually cause people aren't careful where they step) people wind up in the center of a bunch of vortexed enemies.

I know you say NOT to let this happen, but accidents occur.

So what's the best way to mitigate damage if this sort of disaster occurs?

Portrait de Velcro
Velcro
If there is only a single

If there is only a single enemy thick circle of enemies surrounding you, it is possible to shield bump them and run out immediately. They'll bump out a short distance then come back, so if you run immediately after you can get out.

Otherwise you can either shield and wait til it finishes / hope your allies kill the enemies OR you can just pull out a sword and strike furiously hoping to cancel attacks.

Or perhaps use a Nitro if you're bombing.

If it is happening very frequently then maybe something is wrong with the way you place them.

Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
As Velcro said, if it's

As Velcro said, if it's happening frequently, then you're simply placing them carelessly, and/or your teammates are being careless and running into the vortex despite the new and ever-more-obvious bomb fuse graphic.

There's no real fix-it for this, unfortunately. Shield-bumping can protect damage (for however long the shield lasts) until they get 'sploded outwards, or you can attack your way out, or hope someone else does, but the long and the short of it is, that if you get caught in a black hole with a bunch of baddies surroundin' you, you're likely to get a quick prisonhug before you escape.

Also, editin' the OP with a new link for a bomb-Demo video I put together while I'm plannin' out my next one. The next real thing I have planned is gunna take a bit of doing, I think, so just threw this together as a hub for the others

Portrait de Alice-In-Pyroland
Alice-In-Pyroland
Figured I may as well put

Figured I may as well put this here since it is logically a vortex demonstration of sorts.

Also the vortex is hereby called the "Merri-Go-Round" and I shall hear no argument to the contrary.

Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
Love Graveyards as a bomber,

Love Graveyards as a bomber, just so many slow moving baddies that you've really got no choice BUT to just blow them all up; who really wants to use a sword in there?!

Portrait de Velcro
Velcro
@Echoez:

I still want to see mobs trapped between 4 Vortices. Oh the ensuring insanity.

Portrait de Demonicsothe
Demonicsothe
Would standing in your own

Would standing in your own vortex dropping shards be viable? The charge time is rather quick, and theoretically you can shield before something slaps you.

Portrait de Alice-In-Pyroland
Alice-In-Pyroland
Soloing you could do it to

Soloing you could do it to mobs weak to RSS, in parties where the mobs have more health that's what we commonly refer to as a bad idea. Although it isn't ideal at all really, you'd be better trying to drop RSS and getting out before it pulls if you really wanted to do something like that.

Portrait de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
Aye, if you were gunna do

Aye, if you were gunna do that, you'd have to make sure they had low enough health to die from one hit (in which case, the vortex isn't neccesary, just stand still, let them approach you then drop it) otherwise you'd just get trapped inside the vortex and attacked.

Keep in mind that when the vortex grabs a mob, it yanks it in pretty quickly, so you'd have to drop the RSS and run out, but if it's enough mobs to surround you then you're gunna be short of space to move.

A better option is to simply just let them get sucked in, then run up and drop it next to them.