Spiral Knights - Adaptive Difficulty

Adaptive Difficulty

22 replies [Last post]

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 10:36

Kentard

Here's the problem(s):
1. People are complaining about payouts - either being too high or too low.
2. Difficulty throughout a specific level is constant, so either it becomes too easy or too hard.
3. With reference to point 2, some missions become bland and repetitive.

Here's my solution: Adaptive Difficulty.

FAQ:
==============================================
1. What is Adaptive Difficulty?
A:
Adaptive Difficulty involves an 'AI Director' while you are performing your mission, monitoring your performance throughout the mission one level at a time.
Some stats include time taken to complete the mission, how much damage you have taken, how many times a player has died, how many players there are in your party etc.

After every level, the AI Director will tabulate all of this information, and scale the next level's difficulty rating accordingly - i.e. spawning more enemies of a higher tier, or spawning more/tougher enemies on party buttons etc. At the same time, crown rewards (and to some extent material drops) will become more bountiful.

For example, if your party breezes through Silence the Guns on Operation Crimson Hammer, expect more Ghostmane Stalkers and Rocket Puppies instead of normal Gun Puppies on Flank the Frontlines; however you will earn more crowns from that level.
Vice versa, if you've died many times, expect to see less Stalkers on the next level.

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2. Why should we implement Adaptive Difficulty?
A:
Adaptive Difficulty takes into account the party's performance, while allowing for rewards to be scaled to how well the party does, and providing enough difficulty to make a mission interesting even for veterans.

At the same time, adapting the difficulty allows a party to gauge how well it does in a specific mission.

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3. No, this suggestion is sooo exploitable.
A:
Fortunately for you guys, this has been taken into account:
For those that deliberately drag down the party in order to take advantage of reduced difficulty on the next level, they'll get exactly what they aimed for, but with a slight problem; severely reduced crown and material payouts. That being said, Adaptive Difficulty incentivizes players to perform better in missions.

On the other hand, if someone does manage to hack SK and propel through the levels at inhuman speeds in order to take advantage of vastly improved crown payouts, fear not.
Adaptive Difficulty doubles up as an anti-hacking tool that tracks a player's performance. If that performance surpasses a certain threshold (e.g. taking half the time to defeat all enemies in a level compared to the best PvE'ers for that stratum), the hacker will be instantly marked by the system.

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4. If changes are only implemented at the start of levels, what happens if performance changes drastically?
A:
If performance changes due to a player leaving/joining, the difficulty will be scaled to the performance of the players in the party with tabulated information at that point in time.
If the party's carry leaves and you happen to be the weaker player, monsters will be considerably weakened; if you are the MVP, difficulty remains pretty much the same, but mobs will have health scaled to the number of members in the party.

Alternatively, if the performance of all members fluctuates considerably, the system tabulates this information, and immediately alters the difficulty for the next level.

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5. Is there a limit as to how easy/hard a level can be?
A:
There is a limit to how easy a level can be - this is to safeguard against players taking advantage of repeated deaths to plunge the difficulty of levels to something completely effortless.

There is no limit, however, to how hard a level can be, however if the system records stagnation in the player's progress in comparison with the last level (given that the progress of the player tends to saturate at higher difficulty levels) difficulty will remain the same.

==============================================
6. What if a player has recently joined the party?
A:
This is one of the main flaws to the system - i.e. the player is subject to the difficulty level of the party already in the midst of gameplay, and has little, if any, time to adapt.
That being said, given that players are already taking risks when playing with an open party, or joining a pre-existing party of randoms, this consideration is largely negated by the fact that the player is doing so at his/her own discretion.

==============================================
Any comments? :P

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 11:01

Demonicsothe

Still exploitable. Good

Still exploitable. Good players can handle almost everything. Since your increase in difficulty only depends on higher tier/more numerous enemies, a group can potentially farm even more crowns than they already do.

I'm not sure how exceeding possible thresholds can label one as a hacker. As far as most people know, hackers don't exist on this game. Other than those youtube vids with ce/cr programs, but those are doubtful at best.

Back to difficulty scaling. Other than creating new mechanics, difficulty is best scaled with increase in attack speed, reaction, and other various speed up of current enemies. For example, your gun puppy to rocket puppy replacement. Granted, they are harder, but completely different enemies. Not like T2 to T3 difficulty scale, this is just changing enemies.

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 11:23

Draycos

Well

Kid Icarus: Uprising had a more direct version of this with it's Intensity system. You bet or pay some in-game cash to increase the difficulty and rewards or pay for it to be easier with less rewards. On higher Intensities, enemies had higher health, did more damage, attacked more often and with upgraded versions of said attacks, and were greater in number.

Perhaps a system like this could be implemented in Spiral Knights? Of course, there'd be the question of Shadow Lairs... I guess those could stay the same, just with their difficulty meter jammed at max.

The only issue I can see with something like this is the static level difficulty. While doing a level over and over again will still become repetitive with static difficulty, I think it'd be fine if it was available for almost every level (but Hard Mode Ironclaw Munitions Factory would still be more difficult than Hard Mode Clockwork Tunnels). But then there's the problem of people setting the difficulty too high, so maybe whenever someone gets KO'd in the party, the difficulty goes down slightly.

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 12:03

Selenium

Monster balance threads gone. Veterans happy, newbies happy, those in between don't have too hard of a time, and shock fiends are happy because they have an opportunity to be OP again.

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 12:38

Juances

On wolver dens, throw in all the beasts you want, they are still dumb and unchallenging. They could potentially become the new farming levels since rewards will scale.

Unless the Director is capable to break map themes and spawn something else than blind wolvers.

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 12:47

Sacrontine

I'm probably misunderstanding something, but isn't this how tiers work already? There are three tiers, each of different difficulty, and each with payout adjusted to the difficulty. The only difference is that people choose what tier to play in, while this Director would be automatic. Are you saying it's that important to adjust difficulty even within the tier? And that it's better to have automatic scaling instead of people manually choosing?

I'm not sure I understand the three "problems" you pose, either. "Missions become too easy or too hard"? Are you saying levels fluctuate too much in difficulty within a single tier? Or are you saying the entire tier becomes either too easy or too hard?

Don't want to argue, just trying to understand.

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 13:02

Stingz

L4D

The idea seems related to the L4D(2) AI Director, adjusting things to keep the situation challenging.

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 13:12

Luguiru

Toggling?

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 19:46

Severage

This:

"On wolver dens, throw in all the beasts you want, they are still dumb and unchallenging. They could potentially become the new farming levels since rewards will scale."

*nods*

~Sev

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 04:56

Kentard

Hmm...

Other than creating new mechanics, difficulty is best scaled with increase in attack speed, reaction, and other various speed up of current enemies.
Possible, and this would make Wolvers far more difficult to take down.

I'm not sure I understand the three "problems" you pose, either. "Missions become too easy or too hard"?
Let's use the example of Operation Crimson Hammer.
Veteran players who have run through OCH several times and with the right equipment will find that there is little, if any, replay value given that the difficulty is always the same and that the payout is meager regardless of how well you perform.
Vice versa, less adept players will find that it's not worth doing OCH, and that it's too difficult, regardless of how many times they replay the mission.

Are you saying it's that important to adjust difficulty even within the tier?
Yes.
Simply put, I'm trying to scale difficulty according to the performance of each player, and changing at every level rather than tier.
A shift in tier presents a very steep learning curve. I'm merely trying to soften the blow, although the tier system remains intact.

But then there's the problem of people setting the difficulty too high, so maybe whenever someone gets KO'd in the party, the difficulty goes down slightly.
That's exactly what I was thinking of - a death will drop the Adaptive Difficulty of the next level significantly.

Unless the Director is capable to break map themes and spawn something else than blind wolvers.
Possible; most maps have at least 2 monster types present, so in the case of Wolver Dens, Polyps and Lumbers can be spawned.
Oh, and more Silkwings.

There could be an option to toggle this feature, only allowing it to apply to the party when all members have activated it; the option would only available to toggle at the beginning of the floor and/or outside of the Clockworks.
Again, possible - and when one joins a party halfway through, one can see the current 'difficulty rating' in the level.

This idea is still in development, though I'm really hoping this solution allows for less issues with regards to payout balancing and mission replayability.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 06:05

#10

Sacrontine

Ok, so basically you're saying tiers are too crude in regards to difficulty scaling, and the game needs more fine-tuned difficulty. What I wonder is, why can't this tuning be manually set by the players, instead of automatically set by a director?

I guess I would feel a little uncomfortable having an AI judge my every move, especially if MY performance affected the payout of my fellow party-members.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 06:50

#11

Hexzyle

@Sacrontine

Good point. Perhaps the party can vote on a difficulty at the start of the tier?
I don't think many people have such a problem with the game's difficulty being to hard, so maybe the current difficulty can be a constant 30%, and we can choose a difficulty between 0 and 100% (these numbers aren't relative to anything, instead just being a graphical slider for ease of communication...although perhaps 0% could be approximately 30% easier than 30% [aka 70%], and 100% could be an additional 70% [aka 170%], qualitively)

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 09:13

#12

Kentard

@Sacrotine:

What I wonder is, why can't this tuning be manually set by the players, instead of automatically set by a director?
Too rigid, unless the player is perfectly willing to re-select difficulty at the start of every level.
That or we'd have the problem of players making levels way too easy for their calibre, or biting off more than they can chew, and in that process dragging down their party because they can't cope with the difficulty given.

While the idea of the AI Director sounds rather disconcerting, it does encourage players to perform better for the sake of their party members (and their payouts); that and it allows one to gauge how well the party performs in PvE.

The Director also sets the difficulty level to something that all players can definitely cope with (at least, on average), so that you definitely won't get the problem of players breezing through levels simply because they've made it too easy on themselves, or players taking on a difficulty way above their skill level.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 11:22

#13

Demonicsothe

My first post was probably unclear

Would such a program put cr gains below current values? Assuming it doesn't, and would only increase payout with increase in difficulty, it would be a cause for inflation. With your suggestions for difficulty, namely the increase in numbers and substitution of higher tiered enemies, it isn't a challenge to endgame/experienced players.

Even if the cr payou has a floor value lower than current, difficulty by your means is not much more difficult. Which was why I said that to increase difficulty, monster reaction and attack speeds need to go up, instead of down. And implement autotracking on some of the enemies, including giving wolvers, retrodes, and zombies back the attacks.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 11:54

#14

Asukalan

So, you want all newbs to

So, you want all newbs to play anything they want since the Adaptive Difficulty system will adjust levels for them? Then whats the point of Tier system?

For me its just like massive nerf everything thread with a smart coverup.

-1

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 13:43

#15

Sacrontine

@Kentard

I could see being able to adjust the difficulty with some kind of device next to the arsenal box at the start of the level. Like "Oh [crap], a fiend level! Better turn down the difficulty". I think that might make the game too easy, though.

Also, I think it's fine if players "bite of more than they can chew" now and then. The occasional harsh lesson is part of the game. As for people "dragging down the party because they can't cope", if their performance affects the payout of everyone involved, aren't they dragging down the party anyhow?

Saying the Director "encourages" better play is, I think, too nice a phrase. "Pressures" is more the word I'd use. I'm worried it would create even more hostility between players of varying skill/power/latency. I mean, can you blame someone for getting annoyed seeing another player take damage, knowing he is reducing the reward of the entire party?

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 13:47

#16

Tsubasa-No-Me

...

#1. It rewards those with SKILL, not gear... (Well sometimes.)
#2. Just say that HQ has discovered a uncareing and/or passive presence in the cradle.. that pours more, or less energy into the areas...
#3. Tiers are a sort of ranking, this would not replace tiers, simply fine tune them.
#4. if you wip out all the time, then you are not inflating the economy, becuase you are not really getting any of those harder to earn cr's.
#5. Yes, increase the power of the monsters... similar to a challenge room on d28... but it will get harder... only spawn more monsters after a certain threshold.
#6... +1

Not only am I famous, but I inspire Hipster...ness... Yeah.
~Tsu

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 14:08

#17

Sacrontine

@Tsubasa

Who are you talking to this time?

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 00:35

#18

Hexzyle

@Sacrontine

Use your brain. What is the only other post that is numbered 1 to 6?

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 00:37

#19

Tsubasa-No-Me

Oh cool!

I didnt notice that... huh... I was just noting a list of stuff XD

Not only am I famous, but I inspire Hipster...ness... Yeah.
~Tsu

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 06:32

#20

Kentard

Oh boy.

So, you want all newbs to play anything they want since the Adaptive Difficulty system will adjust levels for them?
The point isn't for them to play 'anything they want'; rather it's the opposite - they are obliged to play better to get better payouts.

For me its just like massive nerf everything thread with a smart coverup.
It's not really a 'nerf everything' unless a party performs exceptionally badly - i.e. everyone dies repetitively.
That being said, there is a limit as to how far the enemies are 'nerfed'; and even so this comes at a cost of reduced payouts. Either way, nobody really benefits from a decrease in difficulty.

Then whats the point of Tier system?
The Tiers still exist to set the baseline for difficulty, after which the Director takes over extrapolating enemy difficulty from the current Tier. That being said, difficulty can never plunge too low, nor too high.

if their performance affects the payout of everyone involved, aren't they dragging down the party anyhow?
Think of it the other way; if they speedrun a level efficiently, wouldn't it be due to good teamwork (or very skilled players)?
And isn't this sort of thing laudable in-game?

I'm worried it would create even more hostility between players of varying skill/power/latency. I mean, can you blame someone for getting annoyed seeing another player take damage, knowing he is reducing the reward of the entire party?
In that case we could have the Director just be a bit more lenient with regards to taking damage - death maybe not so much unless the entire party manages to die as well.
Granted, latency and whatnot will still be issues; nonetheless there are cases where players can compensate for the latency with skill (albeit still playing with great difficulty).

#1. It rewards those with SKILL, not gear... (Well sometimes.)
This is the main point here - to encourage players to be less gungho and play smart so that the entire team benefits.

It's a pain in the rear to continuously revive your teammate, and while it does allow players to learn not to bite off more than they can chew, as Sacrontine mentioned, I'm using this system to further disincentivize bad teamwork or lack of skill at higher levels, while giving less adept players more time to adjust to gameplay.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 08:06

#21

Sacrontine

@Hexzyle (ref Tsubasa): See? The lists, despite both being 6-pointed, clearly didn't match up. Which I noticed because I was using my brain.

@Kentard: You seem the optimistic type, but I doubt people in general will choose your point of view.

As it is now, a player is detrimental to the party only if he indirectly causes them to wipe (either because he increases monster health without doing enough damage to compensate, or because he hogs the pills). As long the party pulls through without energy-revives, they don't care if they barely made it or if it was easy as pie: the reward is the same. So there is little reason reason to hate on a weak player if the party still made it through just fine. In fact, if you're looking for heat, you're HAPPY to have others die all around you, so long as you don't.

If your idea was implemented, animosity towards the weakest link of the party is pretty much guaranteed. Party leaders will be constantly judging: "Hmm, if I kick that guy, will I increase the payout for the rest of us?" I foresee an increase in elitism with people having an harder time to form parties. The ideal will essentially become no-damage solo-runs, the kind you see on YouTube. Granted, those take skill, but party-play, even between knights of different potency, is pretty close to the heart of the game.

Maybe I'm seeing the half-empty glass here, but there you have it.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 09:48

#22

Kentard

Hmm...

On one hand, you might cause players to rage about weaker players, giving them less incentive to help newer, less adept players out.
On the other, the decline in difficulty can allow for a more gradual learning curve for weaker players.

And I'm inclined to see the merits of Hexzyle's suggestion to vote for difficulty except for one problem:

Skilful players will take advantage of this to play on max difficulty (that being said, we haven't even defined how hard 'maximum' difficulty is) and still breeze through; in fact in fear of getting players that drag his/her performance down, he will only go solo or with trusted, equally skilled friends.

Not only does this increase the crown disparity between skilled and less skilled players, but it also disincentivizes cooperative gameplay with people you've never met before.

I suppose this suggestion is probably useless, in retrospect. If a player is underperforming, I suppose there really isn't a point trying to force him to play better. Either deal with it or kick him.

BAM. GRAVEYARD.

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