Spiral Knights - Lets Buff Normal Damage. (Another Tsuda thread)

Lets Buff Normal Damage. (Another Tsuda thread)

14 replies [Last post]

Tue, 05/29/2012 - 21:59

Tsubasa-No-Me

We know that the Troika lines are under-powered with their combo, but here are some numbers to show you JUST how bad it is.

There IS a TL;DR.... I Put it in bold for you.

Look at the Damage at D24....

Suda:
1st 241
2nd 297

GF:
1st 241 (lol, the same)
2nd 331 (Oh look, MORE damage, And Curse, as well as being faster.)

So, from a forum post from Darkbrady, when I was still a noob, I learned that the Sealed sword's First hit took .8 secs, while the Suda's took .9 secs... But that second hit took MUCH longer.

So I'm about to attempt getting the 2nd swing data from the lancer knights data...

Here goes... (Note that I'm using the calculator to keep the largest available repeating Number for accuracy)

Lancer knight data says the Suda can complete 28 combo's at ASI med...

60(seconds given)/28 = 2.142857142857 seconds for one combo.

2.142857142857 - .9 = 1.24285714285714

So the Suda's Second hit takes 1.24285714285714 seconds to complete...

Lancer knight data says the GF can complete 31 combo's in 60 seconds...

60/31 = 1.9354838709677

1.935483870967 - .8 = 1.135483870967741

So the second swing takes 1.1354838709677

Now for some easy to read %'s...

GF VS. Suda; 1st swing
.9/.8=112.5% or 12.5% faster then Suda

GF VS. Suda; Second swing
1.242857142857/1.13548387096774=109.456168831168% or about 9.5% faster the Suda

GF VS. Suda; whole combo
2.14285714285/1.9354838709677=110.71428571428% faster, or about 10.7% faster then Suda on average.

Now for DPS...

Suda; First swing
241 damage in .9 secs
241/.9=267.7777

Suda; Second swing
297/1.2428571428=238.96551724137

Suda; Combo
538/2.1428571428=251.066666

GF, first swing
241/.8=301.25

GF; second swing
338/1.1354838709=297.670454545454

GF; Combo
579/1.93548387=299.15

DPS debate now...

GF VS Suda; 1st hit DPS
301.25/267.777777777=112.59336099585% or 12.6% more DPS then Suda

GF VS Suda; 2nd hit DPS
297.67045454545/238.965517241=124.566279679% or about 24.6% more DPS then Suda

GF VS Suda; Combo
299.15/251.06666666666=119.15161975570% or about 19.2% more DPS then Suda

__________________________

TL;DR?

Here's the short version:

GF Raw damage:
1st 0% more Damage then Suda
2nd 13.8% more Damage then Suda
Combo 7.6% more Damage then Suda

GF Speed:
1st 12.5% faster then Suda
2nd 9.5% Faster then Suda
Combo 10.7% Faster then Suda

GF DPS: (Not raw damage)
1st 12.6% more DPS then Suda
2nd 24.6% more DPS then Suda
Combo 19.2% more DPS then Suda

GF Effectiveness against Fiends and Undead: (Little lazy here... I'm tired :P)
360/1.9354838709677419354838709677419= 186 DPS (Exactly :O )
251.066666666/186= 1.3498207885304% or the Suda is 35% more effective then a GF on 1/3 of the monsters you'll find.

This means that if you have a GF and a Suda equipped, the only time the Suda is useful is against those Fiends and Undead. ALL other times the GF will deal 19.2% more DPS, which is like hitting a vulnerable monster.

And you know what? If you're carrying 2 Heavy swords anyways, why the heck not get a DA? It will essentially deal critical hits on everything that the Suda would be used for, and Even more on HALF the things that it would be used for, Undeads.

Normal weapons are simply outclassed in all but a few areas, and even then...

If you are bringing two DIFFERENT kinds of weapons, then why not bring a GF and a Argent Peacemaker? The GF, due it its mechanics allow it to Kill beasts, gremlins, slimes, and Constructs with ease. The AP shreds Undead, constructs, All turrets, Slimes, and its large clip, fast firing speed, range, bullet speed, and mobility let it kill all forms of fiend.

So there is LITERALLY No Legitimate Reason To Use A Normal Damage Weapon. Isn't that great... -.-

I'd like to make this a thread where we Can Place other Math thingies, and fixes for said weapons.

Mon, 06/04/2012 - 16:38

Tsubasa-No-Me

DANANANANANANANANANANANA-

This spot is reserved for Listing links to other math things, and suggested fixes to weapons......................................................................

Sudaruska and Triglav Balance:

Option 1

The slowness is one of the things that just goes with the sword... So here is DPS fixes:

One: Bring The DPS in line with the Neutral Hits of a Sealed sword.

At D24:
1st: 271 damage, This brings the DPS for that swing to 301.111, which is about the same.
2nd: 370 Damage, this brings it to almost the same exactly as the Sealed, 297.75
Over all combo: 641 damage, this brings the overall DPS to 299.1333, Which is JUST under the 299.15 of the Sealed Line.

Also remember, That just by having 2 weapons slots at the start of the game, using typed is FAR better. So having the DPS set AT neutral for its typed counterparts is just about perfect for swords.

Option 2

The swings of these Giant swords are being interrupted by absolutely Silly things. They also can't seem to interrupt anything by hitting them with a Mountain. Brendell's Fix?

Make the damaging bit occur faster, leaving the rest of the Attack open for being hit. (Although making them not interrupt-able would work too, IMO)

Take the damage used to balance the DPS, and shove it all on the Last hit. He thinks that will make it able to knock over Almost everything... And I hope he's right.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 00:54

Dziurka

The only application that the normal damage currently has is the Vandaluke mask. Normal and mixed normal weapons are frequently disregarded (Brandish and DA being the exception thanks for their awesome charge).
I do not think that the damage mechanics itself should change, I would rather prefer having the promotion via awesomeness like in case of DA/Brandish...
I support OP's Idea.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 01:23

Ewbte

This arsenal stations finally

This arsenal stations finally ruined normal damage weapons. I understand that AS profitable for devs, cuz people now have more reasons to have all types of gear. But before they was added there was a lot of + in normal damage weapons, like u spent less money, u don't need more than 2 weapon slots, u don't need to look at gate map, etc.

Now we are able to change equipment on every depth.. so normal damage is totally useless.
Two ways - remove arsenal station (that's stupid) or improve normal damage, to match todays game features.

I agree with Tsu. It will not cause on OOO profit, Having 2 Double damage type weapons still will be more powerfull, so people who like to PWNG (most of players) will use them.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 02:02

Draycos

Just pointing out

Normal weapons still have a use (a use... =/ )- the situations where you're fighting all kinds of enemies. In other words, in Unknown Passage levels. Unless you can switch your weapons quickly and correctly, you might find yourself accidentally using your thorn blade on a Void Lichen or Lumber, or a Divine Avenger on a Void Gremlin. Sadly, even there, enemy resistances don't seem to have nearly as much strength, so using a BTB against said Lichens and Lumbers is still a valid option...

I'd like to see Normal-damage weapons get more useful somehow, myself. Whether it be future content having all sorts of enemy types in a single level with no arsenal stations in sight, or a group of enemies modified to be naturally weak to Normal but have higher specialized defense (The Swarm is a good candidate for this!), normal weaponry needs a niche of its own again. They were useful before arsenal stations, where all you really needed to be successful was a Leviathan Blade and a Valiance, but with them included, there's no reason not to have special damage weapons; once your equips get diverse enough you'll literally be effective against any monster family, and then later any status as well. At this point in time, they're just filler weapons, something you can't really rely on but is the best you have until you get something to replace it...

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 03:30

Tsubasa-No-Me

Remember:

That the the only time you're gonna fight the swarm is one floor, at the very end of a shadow lair, after you've gotten the CE for a Shadow Key, and then only if you want the SL gear. And then its STILL better to carry a GF and a Alchemer, Then a Suda and a Valiance.

=.(\ We kinda need to fix this...

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 05:26

Dukeplatypus

That works for me.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 07:24

Luguiru

Cheeseburger apocalypse

I can take a hint.

And a hit.

And a shot.

And a robot.

And a pot.

On a stove top.

And a drop.

And some corn popped.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 08:02

Draycos

Wow, I can't believe I forgot about Shadow Keys... well, derp, that was dumb of me.

Yeah I guess they have virtually no uses.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 09:33

Quotefanboy

I personally still love my normal weapons

Does that justify this? Nope.

I've been saying the Suda and Triglav are really underpowered for quite some time.

I really wish they'd make more cutter series weapons as well. At least, for heavy sword users, there's an alternative that's element and/or shadow.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 10:16

#10

The-Rawrcake

Iron Slug @_@

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 18:06

#11

Tsubasa-No-Me

QUESTION!

Anybody have some fraps or something to record the seconds on some weapons? If I can get the time for each swing, and for the shots and reloads of guns... Then I can attempt to change damage to balance them.

I just don't have fraps or w/e... /shrug

Edits... Do I have to do this all on my lonesome?

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 04:55

#12

Draycos

@Quote I know a single use doesn't mean too much of anything, I'm just saying... It could be a possible way to balance out normal damage, situations like Unknown Passage levels. I'm more for an entirely new enemy type weak to Normal like you've said before, but hey, an idea's an idea.

@Tsu I'd help out, but I unfortunately have no way to record. I do know, however, that it's a little difficult getting maximum firing speed with some guns, like the Antigua series; fire too fast and some of the shots will be 'duds' and neither deal damage or contribute to the reload.

Mon, 06/04/2012 - 16:39

#13

Tsubasa-No-Me

Updated the Fixing list.

Mon, 06/04/2012 - 16:53

#14

Diamondshreddie

Tsu... u forgot to mention

Tsu... u forgot to mention that its ~19% more DPS ... and it takes a little more than a second to battle a group of enemies. hehe

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Lets Buff Normal Damage. (Another Tsuda thread)