A compromise to the invulnerability debate: Have certain weapons do either both hitstun and hit invuln, or neither
Fr, 06/08/2012 - 19:31
I posted this on another thread but thought that it deserves its own suggestion thread. I first read about this idea from someone else's post and decided to elaborate on it.
The problem with the bug as it is, is that having only hit stun in effect without hit invulnerability allows any weapon with an attack rate faster than the hit stun duration to lock an opponent in place while dealing damage. Prior to the bug, this was prevented by having a hit invulnerability period that lasted for the same duration as the hit stun (though skilled players could still position their follow up attacks to land right after the effect wears off). However, this mechanism prevented weapons such as the blitz needle and cutter from being effective as most of the hits pass right through the invulnerability frames. Now since we've already learned that having only hit stun causes many weapons to be broken, the only reasonable way to allow these rapidfire weapons their full damage capability is to remove both the hit stun and hit invulnerability effects for those weapons.
The idea is to allow multihit type weapons like the cutter, needle, and antigua lines the ability to do continuous damage with both hit invulnerability and hitstun disabled. That way they can be used for high risk/high reward DPS. Since these weapons would no longer be able to stun lock their victims, successful users would require situational awareness as to when it's safe to attack (such as against distracted opponents).
Guardian shields however, would have to still experience the same interval of hit invulnerability against these weapons to prevent other classes from having too easy a time depleting their shields from distance.
It may also be necessary to reduce the damage of the needle guns, particularly the charge attacks. It takes about 3-4 hits from the charge to kill someone, which given the high rate of fire, doesn't allow the victim enough time to get out of the way after taking initial damage.
All weapons that are three attacks or less would revert to the original mechanics in order to limit their DPS, and reward good timing. Weapons like the flourish, brandish and warhammer do not rely on rapidfire to accumulate damage and were fine under the old mechanics.
TL,DR: Make weapons have either both hitstun and hit invulnerability or neither, based on their attack rate. Prevents buffing of already good weapons, allows new weapons (cutter, needle) to be effective without being OP.
EDIT: Added preamble in italics
Fr, 06/08/2012 - 20:36
#2
In addendum
This would also solve issues of Sentenza/AP spammers causing their teammates to constantly miss their targets.
Fr, 06/08/2012 - 21:24
#3
This will balance out LD
This will balance out LD further. +1 to the idea.
Fr, 06/08/2012 - 21:27
#4
On paper it's good, but -1
The problem is that multi-hit weapons are not the only ones to benefit from no invincibility. Every gun benefits because with high enough attack speed they fire very quickly, even the alchemers. Alchemer ricochets also hit a lot better now too.
Why lower the needle's damage on the charge attack when a Flourish can do the same thing with it's normal attack? The truth is if you stay aware a blitz needle charge will rarely one-shot-kill you, and you can pick up an easy kill from someone who fired off a blitz needle charge.
This will also greatly discourage teamwork, as people who use a weapon that causes invincibility frames will ruin everyone else' attacks, just like before. With the way things are now, people must travel together and rely on each other to survive, you can just rush in alone and rely on invincibility frames to keep you alive. Getting "instakilled" by several people on the other team shows what actually happening when you rushed in and survived before. Before, they were all attacking and hitting you, but most of their attacks did not count because of invincibility frames. Now, they all do like they should.
Fr, 06/08/2012 - 21:28
#5
+1
Thrill nailed it like his description of the new accessory.
It's true that some weapons are penalized by default with the "unglitched" mechanics, and this would allow for more variety as well as new ways to play LD.
Hipster like.
Fr, 06/08/2012 - 21:53
#6
@Trollingyou
I don't think you thoroughly read my suggestion. The reason why blitz damage would be lowered and flourish not is because the hit invulnerability would apply to the flourish but not to the blitz. Go use a blitz charge on vana and tell me the numbers you get. Blitz has by far the highest DPS of any weapon. This suggestion is already giving it a major buff by having it not be affected by hit invulnerability. Of course, how much the damage should be lowered by is a detail that is up for debate. Try not to base your judgement of the overall idea based on adjustable details.
Furthermore, I suggest you play some guild lockdown versus experienced guilds to get an idea of some of the teamwork that goes on. Having 3 strikers mob someone in random isn't teamwork. An example of actual teamwork is pairing a status bomber with a fighter to hold a chokepoint. The bomber doesn't even bother trying to mob the enemies but instead debilitates them for the fighter to finish off. Hit invulnerability neither encourages or discourages teamwork as random LDers aren't swarming one person out of a conscious decision to play as a team. No, it's actually just uncoordinated chaos and it just so happens removing hit invulnerability gives the false illusion of teamwork because it allows everyone to get a hit in.
As for your comment about guns, you're completely missing the point once again. Right now almost all weapons benefit from the bug. The point is that not all of them should
Fr, 06/08/2012 - 23:11
#7
+1 I suppose, but...
I'm only supporting this provided lockdown isn't restored to its previous state. I liked it the way it was before, but this is much more agreeable than keeping things as they are. Well spoken my friend. If compromise must be done, it should be done in this way.
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Sa, 06/09/2012 - 11:47
#8
hmmmm
This suggestion is quite fair enough for start.
Could use a little bit of tweaking.
so at the moment neutral.
EDIT: whoops...forgot to check what I was typing.
Sa, 06/09/2012 - 02:13
#9
+1
Holy moly flourish is abusive with the bug.
Sa, 06/09/2012 - 06:18
#10
Hmm....
@Sypsy
Like it wasn't abusive before?
This "bug" just made it more dangerous but still freeze+blitz charge is pure terror!
Sa, 06/09/2012 - 07:45
#11
@Thrillhaus
I did read your suggestion thoroughly. In fact, I came back and read it several times before posting.
My point with the blitz's damage was not based on PVE, but PVP. Tell me, do you see any other weapon other than a fourish line people use to consistantly get 20k+ damage per match? Not even a blitz needle will do that. The thing is, the flourish lines could do this BEFORE the bug. Now, other weapons actually have a shot at being able to do this to. Also, while the blitz has crazy damage, it comes at a cost. One, you must constantly use charge attack to achieve this DPS, which slows down your walking speed by a lot. Two, while firing you are immobilized and unable to shield cancel, leaving you wide open. With a flourish, you can run circles around the guy at a safe distance and kill him in 3-4 hits. Yes, in PVE the damage is quite crazy and a nerf is up for debate, but in PVP it's high damage that comes with great risk.
I have played GvG lockdown, though I can't do it all the time since most people in my guild do not like lockdown. Sadly, I have yet to see anything other than the skolver-clone loadout on the other team, though I have not played GvG since the bug came out. Also, if one guy approaches three guys and the three guys attack and kill the one guy it's not teamwork? It's already been discussed in many threads that having hit invulnerability does encourage teamwork and its actually like this in most pvp games. Teams can focus on a particular target and take him down quickly. You can no longer just rush in alone and try to deal with three people by yourself, you gotta stick together. Also, not all teamwork is based on a setup, some people just know how to work together when the setup fails. If hit invulnerability returns, even in the way you described, it'll go back to the way it used to be unless hit invulnerability were made to only affect the one wielding the weapon that causes it, and no one else on his team.
Tell me what weapons should not benefit from the bug. From what I see, the only weapon seemingly "nerfed" from the bug are the flourish lines, and that's because they benefit the least from the bug. On the contrary, all other weapons have been brought closer in line with the flourish lines. In fact, since the bug, people now use more than just the first swing the combo.
Sa, 06/09/2012 - 09:11
#12
Alchemers.
If weapons were separated, alchemers should be included in the no invincibility frame column. You can clip/double-hit people now!
Guns work correctly now in LD. =]
Sa, 06/09/2012 - 10:47
#13
@Trollingyou
Other weapons
@Trollingyou
Other weapons that can consistently do over 20k damage:
GF/DA
Hammer
Also, the flourish line benefits greatly from this bug. I was able to get 28k damage in a game using 1-2-dash mixed in with combos, and I only used it for part of the game, the rest was just trolling with dvs and AP. I never play to get damage, so in the hands of somone who is serious mode even when a win is secure, we're talking 40k damage here.
No one wants to be dying that much to someone. 4 v 1's were easy. Going against a group of randoms, if you did it right, wasn't a big issue since you could kill them quickly. When I got caught out by other good players, it was difficult to get out of their spam of doom. At least the invulnerability frames od old gave you a practical way to escape someone's spam.
Your comment that other weapons have been brought up to par with the toothpicks is wrong. They have been brought up, but not nearly as much to the potency of a "kill anything in 3 dashes" of a toothpick. The DVS being OP is a lie, it's funny, but too slow to do a kill. Winmillion is funny in groups, but again, probably because the person didn't see it coming. I agree that blitz is powerful, but aside from a charge i never saw coming, it's easy to avoid.
tl'dr: the toothpick line should most definitely not benefit from the bug
Sa, 06/09/2012 - 12:16
#14
Hmm....
@Sypsy
And it really doesn't benefit from this bug.
The only time flourish can connect all three hits is when the target is standing there in front of you (which is a common case). The most practical approach is to keep dodging rather than try to take the damage and hope to survive and retaliate. Cutter series for example has the range equal to calibur/brandish hence they are easy to avoid, if caught then it is due to a mistake (major or minor) and not because the weapon is OP (which you agree that it is not)
Your second paragraph shows the reason why teamwork is currently ignored by many LD players. That invincible frame made a person take on 3-4 players on his own so why hang around with your allies? It gave them a false sense of security.
I mean is it really justified to take away the multi hit ability of some weapons in the name of balance? You do know that such weapons have huge drawbacks which me, Doctorspacebar and Trollingyou have repeated a lot of times.
Also if piercing damage of flourishes or elemental damage of hammer is such a pain then why not use jelly armor set (piercing) or the magic armor set?
And for cutter....plate armor series anyone (or ancient armor set)?
Use the defense oriented armors first then complain if it doesn't work
Sa, 06/09/2012 - 16:10
#15
@Trollingyou
I'm afraid you don't fully understand what happened and I have to concur with Sypsy. This patch did NOT magically bring other weapons in-line with the flourish swords. What it DID do was give every weapon in the game a tremendous buff. Also I've mentioned this in another thread but I think it's worth it to post here as well. Before the patch, it was actually a challenge for me to take on more than one or two people at the same time or one right after another using my skolver/flourish/Gran Faust/Polaris setup. After the patch however, I have virtually no trouble in bringing down 4 and 5 people at once with the same setup. In one match, me and a Vog/Hammer user basically captured everything on the way to the opposing base and locked everyone inside unhindered. What's even worse is that it took nearly no effort at all! 2 vs 6 and we kicked the snot out of them! Now you tell me if that's fair or not.
Sa, 06/09/2012 - 19:05
#16
looks like a good plan to me
Thrillhaus's suggestion looks like a good one to me but if that's too much work I'd definitely rather LD return to the old setup.
Sa, 06/09/2012 - 19:47
#17
@Trollingyou
The flourish actually benefits quite significantly from the bug, and is one of the weapons that should have no benefit at all (it doesn't need it). It used to be that flourish users needed to time their attacks so as to not have their hits go through the enemy. Now the level of ability required to be proficient has decreased significantly. Unlike people who support this bug for self-serving reasons, my reasons for opposing it is that the striker toothpick loadout that I use and which did not need any buffs, is now far too powerful and easy to use.
As for teamwork, I've already said everything that needs to be said on the subject, but I will elaborate. Regardless of whether the bug is in effect, clueless players are still going to swarm into 3v1s. Teamwork is a conscious act, and suddenly making previously detrimental playing less detrimental does not make it teamwork. I really hope my point isn't lost on you due to discrepancies in semantic interpretation. The bug doesn't encourage good teamwork, it just punishes less the kind of mindless play you find in randoms (3 people capping a point, all three off them rush off to engage 1 opponent). When my guild plays GvG, we designate one person to deal with stragglers in transit so that the rest of the group is not wasting precious capture time (which is the more important objective). This would fall under the definition of teamwork because everyone on the team is aware of what is going on.
Don't take this personally, but I don't think you have as much understanding of the game mechanics as some of the other more experienced LD regulars in this thread. I've only started seeing you in lockdown relatively recently, and most the time you're playing recon gunner, which is commonly acknowledged to be a poor class choice (gunners are more effective as strikers, recons are more effective as bombers/swords). If you familiarized yourself with striker more, you'd see exactly how much the bug needlessly benefits the flourish.
EDIT: I've added a preamble to my initial post which hopefully helps explain the rationale behind the suggestions.
Sa, 06/09/2012 - 20:56
#18
@Thrillhaus
I have been playing Lockdown since it came to the game. Why we haven't ran into each other then I do not know, maybe it was the way the regions were divided. I do dabble in striker a lot, and I actually find toothpicks to be less of a problem while using striker than while using recon. As long as I have boost, dodging them is easy. I just prefer recon more, which is why you see me using it all the time. The only reason why striker is more effective for gunners is that the strike booster messes up gunner's main advantage (range) and takes away a sword's downside (range again), so in order to retain this advantage the gunner must use it. If you don't believe me, try fighting a guardian (If you can find one right now lol) using a toothpick with only your valiance, you'll find it quite easy.
Now that you elaborated, I see your point a little better. My concern with the invincibility frames returning though is that some weapons that aren't fast, multi-hitting weapons were hindered by it. The Sudaruska/Triglav charge and Alchemer ricochets are two examples, both work with the bug as intended. There is also the concern of the one guy who hits a person and triggers invincibility frames which ruins the attacks of his 3 teammates who were aiming at the same target. It might discourage the use of some weapons as people would not be able to team up and take down a guy in a flash. They would use the weapons where they could and we might see the new LD clone loadouts.
Three people running off the point to kill one guy is not the fault of the bug, it's the fault of the players. Also, the one guy should not approach 4 people alone, that is asking to be used for free damage. I assume though you meant the one guy was merely a leftover from a big team fight. When I say the bug encourages teamwork, I mean it encourages people to stick together. Having a set plan is good too, until someone figures out your strategy. That is when you need to be able to work as a team without a plan.
So, 06/10/2012 - 00:16
#19
@Infidelslayer
I apologize,
@Infidelslayer
I apologize, but I have read over your post a few times and I am confused on what you are trying to communicate.
For the record, I was agreeing with Thrillhaus and Bulby in this thread. I found demolishing a team in random was too simple. In that sense, it was unfair.
I wasn't complaining about armors.....? I understand that the other weapons need buffs to be made usable, (which is suggested by this thread) but my point is that it is imperative that the flourish not be buffed while the other weapons are made usable.
Perhaps this clarifies some things that may have been unclear, but let me know otherwise!
So, 06/10/2012 - 08:23
#20
@Trollingyou
Just to clarify a few things, when I said you would understand why toothpicks benefit from the bug if you played striker, I didn't mean that strikers have a hard time against bugged toothpicks. What I meant is that as a striker with a bugged toothpick, it becomes much too easy to kill everything else.
Also I said that gunners are better AS strikers, not strikers are better AGAINST gunners, but you may disregard as it isn't relevant to the discussion about the suggestions.
Heavy swords (mainly the sealed line) were one of the most commonly used weapons pre-bug so invincibility frames returning would not be a problem for those weapons. Alchemers too were among the most popular and best guns available for their damage and status (I myself used them). Slow weapons have no problem with invincibility frames because they are simply too slow to be affected by them. If you're talking about other people triggering the invincibility frames while you're attacking, that isn't an issue with the mechanics, that's an issue of poor teamwork. At higher levels of competitive play, it's almost a non-issue as people know not to go around spamming AP into someone else's fight. There was nothing wrong with the old system. Some people prefer the bug because it helps compensate for the poor playing of either themselves or their teammates.
@Atacii
Any seasoned gunner would object to that as 1. successful gunning relies on using the period of hitstun to create separation against aggressive pursuers and 2. using the full clip is a bad idea anyway as reloading makes you a sitting duck.
So, 06/10/2012 - 10:29
#21
@Thrillhaus
I know how easy it is to kill everything else with a toothpick, being on the receiving end of one a lot. However, it was easy to kill everything with a toothpick even before the bug.
Also, I did not mention the sealed lines, I mentioned the Troika lines. Sealed lines are not affected much at all by the bug, but the Troika lines which make use of their powerful charge attack were affected. Before the bug, the charge attack could not hit twice like it should have because of the invincibility frames. Since the bug though it can now, and can even one-hit a guardian. Alchemers were a popular choice since lockdown came out not so much because they were super awesome, but because there are almost no safe alternatives for a gun period. The only other guns that could compete before the bug were the Polaris, Valiance and to some degree the Callahan. All other guns were either too risky or the damage was so low it was not even worth it. Also, invincibilty frames were hindering what the alchemers can really do. There shots can actually hit a target twice now when aimed right, just like they do in PVE. The charge shot can hit multiple times like it's supposed to. This is the alchemer's signature quality and what's sets them apart from other guns.
I know people can time there attacks to counter the invincibility frames, but what if a team wants to hit someone at the same time through an ambush? Why should there method not be allowed? Both situations are coordinated teamwork, but invincibility frames makes one impossible. If someone wants to hit a guy multiple times really fast, why should he be hindered by the system while the guy who wants to hit once but very hard is allowed to do so? Yes, the was something wrong with the old system: It catered heavily to one style of play and made it hard, in some cases impossible, for other styles of play to have a chance of excelling.
Also, I know gunners are better as strikers. I was explaining WHY they are better as strikers.
So, 06/10/2012 - 10:44
#22
+1
Well said Thrill.
So, 06/10/2012 - 10:46
#23
@Trollingyou
I assumed you were talking about the regular two swing combo of heavy swords as slow sword charge attacks are not the best tactic in lockdown. But really, fixing the damage of the charge attack would be easy and doesn't require taking away the invulnerability frames for every single other weapon.
Alchemers already do significant damage with the main projectile, and the ricochets are still very useful against groups, or when your initial shot misses. If the devs felt the main projectile needed to do more damage, they could adjust that on its own. Still no reason to remove a more important mechanism to the weapon's use.
Having a numerical advantage in a battle is still advantageous as one side will simply have a higher volume of attacks which are more likely to catch the enemy. Double/triple teaming someone could still kill a single opponent extremely quickly (2-3 seconds as the hit invulnerability was only half a second long) IF and only IF the attackers 1. come in from more than just one angle 2. stagger the timing of their attacks a little to set up a wave. Again, the main distinction here is that being effective under the old system required a higher caliber of play.
So, 06/10/2012 - 10:54
#24
+1
I am President Zaderules, and I approve this message.
So, 06/10/2012 - 11:04
#25
+1
I cant agree more thrill
Mr-Galea
So, 06/10/2012 - 12:51
#26
+1
I really dont like it, die too fast and weapons are OP >.>
So, 06/10/2012 - 17:19
#27
The idea is to allow multihit
- The idea is to allow multihit type weapons like the cutter, needle, and antigua lines the ability to do continuous damage with both hit invulnerability and hitstun disabled. That way they can be used for high risk/high reward DPS. Since these weapons would no longer be able to stun lock their victims, successful users would require situational awareness as to when it's safe to attack (such as against distracted opponents).
+1 to this. One of the most annoying things before was getting killed by someone cause your team mate is spamming sentenza or AP not knowing he's cancelling your hits.
- Guardian shields however, would have to still experience the same interval of hit invulnerability against these weapons to prevent other classes from having too easy a time depleting their shields from distance.
It may also be necessary to reduce the damage of the needle guns, particularly the charge attacks. It takes about 3-4 hits from the charge to kill someone, which given the high rate of fire, doesn't allow the victim enough time to get out of the way after taking initial damage.
+1 to this too
- All weapons that are three attacks or less would revert to the original mechanics in order to limit their DPS, and reward good timing. Weapons like the flourish, brandish and warhammer do not rely on rapidfire to accumulate damage and were fine under the old mechanics.
-1. I don't know if i'm the only one that had this problem, but before when i tried to double swing my BTB the 2nd hit would almost never go in. Now it does and my sword is actually doing what the animation shows. I don't know how to fix this without giving you hit invulnerability though... I guess let it go trough if it was ONE person hitting you but when it's 2 or more then you'd get hit invulnerability? This would prevent you from getting obliterated against a big group which is the major problem of this bug.
Good suggestions in here though, and I'm sure OOO knows about this and will change it sooner or later, one can just hope not for the worse.
So, 06/10/2012 - 19:23
#28
+1
Love this suggestion. Nothing more to say that hasn't been said already.
So, 06/10/2012 - 19:36
#29
@Meida
" I don't know if i'm the only one that had this problem, but before when i tried to double swing my BTB the 2nd hit would almost never go in"
That's the point. Allowing all three flourish hits to connect makes it way too easy to combo spam. With hit invul on you have to time your toothpick hits properly and either just hit with first swing, start your attack out of distance and only hit with second swing, or full combo and only get to hit with the 1st and 3rd hits. This puts the skill back in toothpick using and makes it not so OP (it's still the most useful weapon but it's not over the top, especially if some of the other weapons had the hit invul/stun taken off).
Mo, 06/11/2012 - 00:00
#30
@Meida
What Warlord said. I thought you knew this already.
Mo, 06/11/2012 - 05:30
#31
If you get caught in a full
If you get caught in a full FF/BTB combo you need to position better. I do agree it's annoying when you're fighting a big group and they just all spam you, there's no way you're getting out alive, but against a single person i'm gettin hit by as many full combos as i was before, like 1 a day when i get distracted.
Mo, 06/11/2012 - 10:13
#32
You can't assume everyone's
You can't assume everyone's playing striker, ideally there should be people playing all of the classes somewhat equally and as a guardian (i'm just going to use guard as an example but some of this would apply to recon too) it's much harder to just dodge toothpick combos, it can be done but in a 1v1 situation between players of equal skill the guard is going to take some hits (and in some situations it used to be good strategy to tank a hit or two if your shield was very low). If the striker is a combo spammer and has higher asi (reasonable assumption since strikers have higher natural asi) in the current, bugged LD the guard is going to take all three hits. Under the old system it was still very doable to recover and keep fighting or sometimes spin barely out of the way of the last hit while the second hit whiffed but currently you're going to get planted by the stun lock and torn up by the added damage.
So yes, maybe if every single person is playing striker (gosh that would be boring) you could tell them to just dodge better, but LD isn't (or at least shouldn't be) all about strikers.
Mo, 06/11/2012 - 10:42
#33
Hmmm I guess that makes
Hmmm I guess that makes sense. What about make it so some weapons, like the btb, don't interrupt your attack? Meaning even though you're taking a combo you'd be able to respond yourself with a full combo? That would give guardians the advantage they need reward strikers that are quick and play safe instead of spam
Mo, 06/11/2012 - 10:44
#34
FALCON PUNCH!
I'm Captain Falcon, and i approve of this message.
Mo, 06/11/2012 - 11:20
#35
@meida
While that possibly might work from a fairness standpoint in terms of actual fun gameplay that would be terrible imo.
The best part of lockdown is trying to control the distance and timing in a good toothpick+sidearm gun battle. Interrupts are the biggest part of that. If I get the timing right as a guard I should be able to juggle a striker at the edge of my range until he panics and either tries to kamikaze me or run off, if i screw it up he should make me panic, put up the shield till it's gone then come in for the kill. But at any point during this battle either of us should be able to recover and exploit overeagerness, a mistimed shot, or misjudged distance. Full combos in the current, bugged LD make mistakes (or having lower asi, or capping a point above your opponent) unforgivable, especially for guards and recons who can't sprint over to a striker who is stuck having ended his third strike juuust out of hit distance
If the hit stun was removed from some stuff like cutter line, and some guns like thrill suggested in the op that makes sense. Cutter line was never really meant as a main dps sword anyway, more of a support/pester role, and as a gunner you should be keeping distance anyway. So with hit stun off you would be hitting more often and doing more damage but if you let your opponent get close you'd be in pretty deep trouble.
But removing hit stun on any of the main sword lines would not make sense at all.
Well-said.