XXI: THE WORLD; my take on the balance of every weapon in the game (PvE)

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Fehzor

So I was arguing about how Suda is better than the DA with my haters, and I realized that I haven't seen a thread discussing the balance of every single item in the game yet. So lets have at it.

The primary damage dealers:

These items are used for dealing damage against the main thing on a level. I find it best to bring about 2 of these to any given level, or one at least. These have special damage, and are situational against a certain genre of enemies. If there are multiple options for one use, they must be in direct competition with each other, meaning that they have to be balanced directly against each other rather than against similar weapons with similar mechanics.

Shadow damage:

Acheron VS Gran Faust

Acheron's main attraction over gran faust is its charge attack- while GF can be used for what is good damage on normal hits against enemies, acheron can do the same thing but better on the charge. Gran Faust on the other hand, has one huge thing over acheron- knockback. Overall, gran faust is better against mobs that don't dodge on its normal attack, but isn't nearly as effective at taking out polyp turrets, while acheron is better against polyps and the same against everything that GF excels at. It can be argued that GF is fine for taking out polyps, but again, the same tricks used to make GF take them out can be used on acheron, but to take it out faster. GF's charge is better at one thing- taking out huge crowds that have silkwings inside of them when the user has weapon slots/curse resistance... however, such crowds are not always common on levels that lack the features that make acheron better, and it is not such a big deal if you know what you are fighting as there are far better ways to deal with such a crowd.

Sentenza VS Umbra driver

Sentenza offers more mobility, while umbra driver offers more damage, and that is the bottom line. Sentenza has better control over the level due to its fast shot speed and large clip, while umbra driver offers the ability to utilize the switch-shield-shoot tactic that enables the user to rapidfire stronger shots and once again, deal more damage. Overall, Sentenza is much better if you can adequately strafe through bullet hell as it will help you out with that, while umbra driver is better at taking out bullet hell faster. Sentenza's charge is next to useless as well, while umbra driver's charge once again... does a ton of damage, and enable's umbra driver to OHKO enemies in a pinch, should the user have CTR on the thing. Umbra driver is also better against crowds of enemies, especially when gremlin healers are involved.

Sentenza is better as a side weapon in many cases due to its ability to hit buttons and things over gaps better, while umbra driver may be the weapon of choice for a "gunner" whom wishes to deal tons of damage. Keep in mind that umbra driver also requires more skill to use, and is far cheaper than Sentenza.

Dark Retribution VS other forms of damage

Dark retribution is a great source of damage against both large groups of enemies that are weak to shadow damage. It deals more damage than a single charge of a acheron when fighting mobs that are weak to it, and it is incredibly good against large mobs such as the jelly king, as well as mobs that don't move at all such as polyps and even gun puppies. All in all, it is a unique weapon that is about as effective as most other shadow weapons.

Elemental damage:

Brandishes VS Brandishes VS Brandishes

All brandishes are the same in terms of the normal attack, however differ quite a bit on the charge attack. Glacius offers ice, which stacks well with other ice weapons and provides a good deal of crowd control while not doing as much damage as other brandish lines. Not only will combuster hit all of the mobs for fire, but it will move them back to get in more hits, making it the 'deadliest' of the brandishes in terms of raw damage. The mid point to this is the voltedge, which hits them up for shock- it doesn't hit as many times as combuster due to the shock canceling out the knockback, but it does offer better crowd control than combuster and more damage than glacius. Thus, in the regards of damage and crowd control, voltedge is 'the best'. However, it is important to consider that glacius stacks with other forms of ice, and that combuster is good against slimes as well due to their weakness to fire. All in all, I'd put the brandishes even with each other.

Brandish lines VS Divine Avenger VS Warmaster Rocket Hammer

Similar to the argument stated above for 'Acheron VS Gran Faust', brandish lines are better at taking out turrets and about equal when taking out other things... the only difference in this argument, is that the DA is stronger when it comes to charges against the roarmulus twins, and against turrets. If planned correctly, you can OHKO most turrets with a single DA charge by standing about 1.5 squares away or so. However, brandish lines are still the best for taking out most other mobs one on one, and in a crowd given its charge that doesn't fail when next to a wall.

Enter WRH. This beast is capable of killing things extremely quickly when they can't move. Just run into them on the second hit, and smash them to bits. This makes it good when there are corners for you to push things into. In this regard, it is the greatest. However, it fails to brandishes when it comes to the charge attack- brandish lines have great crowd control, even when it comes to combuster. WRH's charge is decent at best, but is dangerous and ineffective compared to its 2nd hit, while brandishes can status crowds to kill them. It works well in conjunction with ice as well, due to the limited movement, although it is by no means restricted to this.

Bottom line: WRH for single target damage; Brandishes for everything else. Glacius/Voltedge+WRH is possibly the best if you're a swordy.

Alchemers VS Alchemers VS Alchemers VS Alchemers

Copied from another thread where I commented-
Nova: Best for single target damage VS enemies lacking shields that are not weak to umbra
Storm: Best for large groups of enemies that are close together and move often; works well with magma; best general crowd control
Magma: Best for turrets and large groups of enemies that do not clump together; works well with storm
Hail: Best for single targets that shield and healers; works well in conjunction with other ice themed items; best deliberate crowd control

And that about sums it up.

Alchemers VS Argent Peacemaker VS Polaris

Just as was the case before, much of the argument relating to 'Sentenza VS Umbra driver' remains true here. Alchemers are better for damage, while AP is better at mobility. AP's charge is just as terrible as Sentenza's, and the alchemers rock. In this case, the status alchemers are better in terms of crowd control, and AP is better at.. switches. The alchemers only get stronger though, as the rapidfire switching relies on them more often than not, and as I wrote above, Storm+Magma driver is an awesome combination, allowing the user to hit for massive damage quickly.

Polaris is the odd one out here. Its better at turrets, and somewhat terrible otherwise. The reason, is that it has knockback and shock... shock cancels knockback, making it unpredictable. That being said, it can be used to deal decent damage, but still far less than the alchemers and even Argent Peacemaker. If anything, polaris is just an efficient way to kill turrets, and as such is not good at this job.

Piercing Damage:

Flourishes VS Flourishes VS Flourishes VS Flo-SNARBOLAX SWORD

The current damage values assigned to the statusing variants are not nearly as effective as the non statusing variants of this sword. A 1/16 chance of stun is not so hot when it would otherwise take 3 hits to kill the thing. The only way it would help in that situation is if it stunned them, and somehow saved you.. but again, 1/16 is not enough of a chance to warrant using that. The fire variant is the same as the stun variant in this regard, in that it deals less damage than the damage variant, but has a slight chance to deal more. The one exception is that the stun/fire charges are much more effective against crowds of mobs- they deal 15/16 of the damage, and have a higher chance of status. This is of course a moot point seeing as that the snarbolax sword's charge deals a ton of damage against large numbers of mobs, and does not fling the user forward into danger.

Callahan VS Blitz needle VS Plague needle
Callahan has crappy damage, but the ability to knock down fiends and beasts. Blitz needle is pretty much the same way, except instead of crappy damage, it has the best damage of all time, but lacks much of the movement that callahan gets. Don't get me wrong, they both are sub optimal in terms of movement and vulnerability, but callahan less so. Callahan's charge attack is far worse than the blitzes, while blitz's charge is exactly the same as its normal hit, except longer and stronger. Callahan requires ASI, while blitz benefits from ASI and CTR, but mostly CTR. To fully unlock the power of the blitz needle, the user must use the charge. Click here for a summary of the blitz needle.

Plague needle is exactly like blitz, except that it causes poison and has bad damage. The poison caused is crappy, and the damage nerf is HUGE, and as such, the plague needle is not worth looking into unless you already own a blitz and plan to poison and then fight. The other place where plague is better than blitz is when there are healers and beasts in a crowd- shooting into a crowd repeatedly is a decent strategy, but even so, bringing venom veilor would be better than having it.

Dark Briar Barrage VS Flourishes VS Piercing Guns

DBB is much better against beasts. If you have troubles with beasts, make it, and spam it. It will destroy them, and is the overall weapon to use when using piercing against beasts, which it stun locks and destroys. Against fiends and vanaduke, it isn't nearly as hot as swords or blitz needle, although it can still be used to some effectiveness against fiends.

The Role of Normal Weapons (and other "helper" weapons):

Many people identify normal weapons as being useless, or sub-optimal mistakes by the devs, but I feel that I have seen the light on such an issue. They are, if you will, side weapons in many cases. If you're bombing, and want a side weapon that will take care of anything, you've got it. Think to yourself- do you REALLY need ASI MAX on your Brandishes in order to kill anything? Most of the time, no. Most of the time, you can beat anything without huge amounts of boosts, and that goes for specialized damage.

Lets say I told you to gear up to fight ANYTHING. That I would dump you into a random arena, and that you would fight it out. That arena might be anything- from islands of turrets you can't reach forming bullet hell to beasts from monster boxes on respawners. If you're a gunner, you might bring callahan, umbra driver and perhaps storm driver- but if you bring a fourth gun, you might not be able to deal with the possibility of the arena consisting of a small walk space surrounded by fire vents. So instead, you might want something like a sudaruska. You could then hit things away from your small walkway, and then gun them. Now, you might say "But DA is better for that!" What if you're fighting beasts on your walkway?? "Gran Faust!" You don't have room to hold onto both, and using one would sacrifice your guns.

But lets say that you aren't a gunner, and that you use whatever class fits the level. You don't know what this arena will require, but you do know that it is a normal arena with no statuses. Bombs could be the best if it had a large open space with mobs that chased you, guns could be the best if it had turrets, and swords could be the best if it had enemies that came up to you quickly. But you don't know what damage type will be the best- in this case, it would be best to bring things with the intent on just having something that will work. You don't need the overkill that is most specialized damage, but at the same time you do need something that works. So you might go for a loadout of ash of agni, valiance and leviathan blade, so that you can deal with whatever you come across. This situation occurs often in the form of danger rooms, in which you cannot possibly predict what kind of monsters you will fight.

Normal Swords:

Leviathan blade:
-Good DPS on turrets with the charge
-Good DPS on normal swings
-Less knockback on normal hits
-High knockback on the charge (can damage team mates)
-Works with ice semi-well

Cold Iron Vanquisher:
-Less DPS than Levi
-More DPS than Levi if fighting undeads
-Slightly worse in every other way
-Otherwise same as levi

Sudaruska
-Good DPS on charge; especially when fighting large amounts of enemies that follow you.
-Good Knockback on normal hits
-Bad DPS compared to other swords

Triglav
-Second hit may freeze; making this weapon dangerous to use from the front while stronger from the back
-Good knockback on the first hit
-Charge can freezelock and kill easily
-Works well with ice

Dread Venom Striker
-Poison makes large mobs die even faster+do more damage to the same target once you get started on it
-Worse for fighting multiple targets
-Good against enemies that don't move
-Charge is risky, but when pulled off deals a moderate amount of damage
-Works well with ice

Wild Hunting Blade
-Better against beasts
-Otherwise same as Dread Venom Striker minus poison
-20% cooler

Winmillion
-Is garbage
-Is mildly fun to use garbage that looks and behaves awesomely until you realize that it does next to no damage

Conclusion:
If normal damage is what you will primarily be outputting, then it would likely be best to take DVS/WHB (pending on beasts) or Leviathan. Leviathan would be best overall, although DVS/WHB can still kill turrets just as well, and won't hurt your party as much on the charge. It really all comes down to ice, if you have it, then DVS/WHB is better, if you don't levi will likely deal you better. Similarly, if you're going to be fighting large targets, DVS is much better, otherwise, Levi is. If you are focusing on gunning, then Sudaruska is what you're going to want, and if you are a bomber, then you're going to want Leviathan blade or DVS/WHB to back you up, as you probably already have crowd control without the levi charge.

Normal (or helper) Guns:

Supernova:
-Deals good knockback to mobs, allowing you to corner them and beat the crap out of them.
-Works with nitronome

Polaris:
-Random knockback; good for turrets only

Neutralizer:
-Offers knockback in specific directions
-Also capable of causing massive damage if played correctly via spamming the charge onto a single enemy and then leading other enemies into it to blow up.
-Is generally speaking not worth it due to its difficulty level being through the roof and the long time it takes to set up blasts; unreliable
-Works well with ice is an understatement

Biohazard:
-Not strictly normal; still used more as a helper weapon
-Much the same as Neut, but better on everything but slags; all else will be either be hurt more by it, or will be almost unbeatable by it or neutralizer

Iron Slug:
-Terrible source of DPS
-Fires slowly
-Has a high flinch factor, which relies on raw damage
-Putting all three of those together, in order to use it correctly, one must provide a large (about high-max) amount of damage buff, and in order to make it viable, you'll need a large (again, high or more) amount of attack speed increase. Used in conjunction with swords in order to stop bullets/enemies while attacking another enemy.

Volcanic Pepperbox:
-Great for turrets on the charge
-Great knockback against smaller mobs on the charge
-Great support weapon due to fire+the ability to knock enemies out of the way of party members
-Great damage weapon, but nothing compared to the blitz needle that it mirrors.
-Leaves the user vulnerable

Valiance
-Good knockback on normal hits
-Good knockback for large mobs on the charge (think being cornered by lumbers)
-Incredibly safe to use
-Low damage output

Conclusion:
Neutralizer/Biohazard is good if you have ice and only then, if not it is better to use volcanic pepperbox/valiance. Supernova is a poor choice overall, and is not really that useful unless you have many people to spam it with nitronome to keep safe. The best choice overall is valiance, due to its safety and the wide variaty of situations that you can use it in. For more experienced users, volcanic pepperbox is a fun alternative that can easily improve your team on most levels. Polaris is only really an option if you're a swordy wanting to kill turrets, and then it is a fairly good option. If you're using swords along with a swiftstrike buckler, iron slug can provide a side gun for you to bring along, although keep in mind that you'll need to get a decent damage (or ASI if you want to provide a damage buff using armors) UV for whatever you're fighting on it so as to actually flinch them.

Helper bombs: (notice that these are not "normal" bombs)

Nitronome (and other blast bombs)
-Decent damage
-Works well with itself and supernova
-Blinds your party and is generally chaotic and bad.

Shivermist Buster
-Is the keystone of the "ice" strategy, making many weapons better and many weapons fail
-Good if the party can plan ahead enough to make it work

Ash of Agni
-Is good for fire damage against all non-fire mobs
-Can be used to clear out large quantities of mobs at a time, slowly

Stagger Storm
-Can help your party to fight things; some mobs do not attack while staggered (mecha knights+Almire knights especially)
-Works in conjunction with all haze bombs; if you have 2 bombers, one can stagger to really clean up
-Will get your party killed due to stun's secondary effect of bending time and space to allow entities to attack twice when stunned; can be avoided by continuously placing the bomb
-Rarely resisted

Venom veilor
-Better than ash of agni if there are healers; though your party must know this (rare; tell them)
-Stacks with other haze bombs

Voltaic Tempest
-Stacks with other haze bombs (not shiver)
-Can be used in place of shiver to some extent
-Good for crowd control and damage

Electron Vortex
-Best bomb for crowd control and support
-Works well with high powered charge attacks
-Capable of grinding healers and other mobs to death with electricity
-Slow walk speed (making it harder to use by a bit, but incredibly effective once you get the hang of it)

Graviton Vortex
-Decent, but worse than electron vortex by far. Does not cause a status that holds the enemies; and as such fails

Conclusion:
While many of the bombs above are good for support, and are all somewhat good, the only one you will really need is the electron vortex. Unless you're fighting quicksilvers or other shock resistant mobs, it will outperform 90% of support bombs. If you're soloing, then ash of agni is far better than it, but even so, it is usable for that too. Spamming haze bombs is effective, but why bother when you can bring your electron bomb and just get your buddies to blast them? That being said, if you're pugging it up and you don't exactly trust your new friends to notice that you're spamming electron bombs, ash of agni/vt can provide better options alongside a neutral damage sword of your own. If soloing, nitronome is viable due to only blinding yourself as opposed to your team mates, although chances are that ash of agni will still outperform it due to no knockback. It is notable to say that shiver can be stacked with electron for added effect, and that shiver is popular at FSC due to its strength in the duke fight. Shiver is also a good option for most situations if your team has items that go with it, especially those in which shock is ruled out by theme.

Bosses

Snarbolax:

The snarbolax itself is not a problem, although the rabid snarbolax-plural found in the ultimate gloaming wildwoods can be. It merits mostly all out piercing attacks for damage. Specifically, piercing swords and the blitz needle for the actual hits. Electron vortex can come in handy here due to its ability to suck in the snarbolax, although is not specifically needed for such a thing, as your time is going to be better spent fighting the swarm thing that slows you down. I personally would also recommend wild hunting blade for the fight on one person, so as to kill the swarm seed at light speed, although again, it is just a nice touch over all. Of course, sentenza and argent peacemaker come in handy as well due to the bell mechanic. Callahan COULD be used, although its DPS is too low to really compete with blitz, as when the snarbolax is stunned, its easy to hit wihtout a flinch mechanic and doesn't benefit further stunning.

Roarmulus Twins:

The divine avenger is needed for this fight if you are to go at the fastest speed possible. While it can be done with just brandishes or even haze bombs for that matter, DA's charge will hit the hardest... the one case I'd recommend it in over that of the brandish lines. If you plan on running nothing but ICMF for an extended period of time, get a DA. Sentenza will aid you in the levels leading up to the twins, and will give you the ability to hit switches fast enough. Aside from that, not much is to be said.

The Jelly King: (because royal jelly sounds weird)

JK is an interesting boss fight, in that some items are just ridiculously effective on it while others are not. These items are pretty much one hit KOs when brought to the fight, and will make the entire thing a joke. If your party lacks them entirely, then you'll end up wasting time on the polyps in order to 'starve' the king.

The KO weapons that slay Jelly King easily are, in order of about most effective to least effective are: (Its hard to rank them in such a fashion)
-Dark Retribution
-Acheron
-FoV
-Volcanic Pepperbox
-Leviathan Blade
-Combuster
-Glacius/Voltedge
-Ash of Agni
-Umbra driver
-Gran faust
-Venom Veilor
-Magma driver
-Storm/Nova driver
-Hail driver

That is to say that while it will still work, bringing something like hail driver will be significantly harder to KO with than dark retribution.

Vanaduke:

Vanaduke's strategy revolves around the blitz needle, which deals a ton of damage to him. The poison variant has a side roll, if brought with either shiver or another blitz, it can be used to poison while your team deals damage.... basically free damage. The poison variant is by all means not needed, as you can almost do more damage just by bringing a blitz without it at all. Shivermist buster is good if you like to win without putting in any effort, or are new to the fight. Shivering is also a common job in most parties, as when playing with randoms it is best to assume that they know nothing about what is ahead. Shiver makes the fight significantly easier, and a teensy bit slower. If you're going to be doing vanaduke with only swords, war master rocket hammer is your best bet, alongside a dread venom striker. Warmaster rocket hammer is also good if you lack a blitz/shiver to help out in damaging vanaduke in that you can quickly kill the almire guard knights that he spawns.

Shadow lair notes:

The things in the shadow lairs that slow you down are best countered with either DVS or argent peacemaker/sentenza. If your party lacks that, most other swords will do just fine, but won't be optimal. The unknown passageway is best traversed by argent/sentenza as well, and nitronome/blast bombs are somewhat useful there as they can be spammed to push lots of things away from you in the timed fights. Other than that, using whatever you have to kill stuff should be fine. The levels found prior to the boss fights often favor polaris due to the large number of annoying turrets found within, although not so much within UICMF, especially due to the quicksilvers which absorb shock and red rovers which are for the most part a joke, although there are situations where supernova can be used if you really have turret problems.

......So thats about how I see the balance in this game, in terms of usability of weapons.

EDIT: I wrote about the balance of the new shard bombs here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/63067

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Sppw
COME AT ME HATERS!!! (my

"COME AT ME HATERS!!! (my hands hurt after typing that...)"

Hi

Imagen de Fehzor
Fehzor

If you don't have anything to add or say that benefits the thread, can you not post?

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Aumir
Good, but one thing to say

Hmmmm, as someone who has a Graviton Vortex, I can tell you that it does work better against things like Quicksilvers.

Also, random Shock makes the mob "spread" when bursting the bomb not reliable for Electron Vortex, and it is better for what it is. Electron Vortex also can't hold Kats, one of the things that "Elemental" damage is for:

Elemental damage > Undead + Constructs, generally easy mobs
Shadow damage > Slime + Gremlins, generally more annoying mobs

Which, to me, makes Graviton Vortex better in the "crowd control" purpose of the bomb. If you want to crowd control Constructs or Undead, a Polaris can help you better at that.

Most of the other things you said though, I agree.

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Dukeplatypus
I don't have the time to read

I don't have the time to read all of that right now, so I'll comment on one of the first things and add on later.
GF works pretty damn fine on Polyps. It does massive damage with the normal combo and it flinches them so they can't fire back. If you can get close, which isn't too difficult, there's nothing I'd prefer over GF on Polyps.

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Velcro
@Aumir:

The damage is practically irrelevant for the Vortex. A significantly larger portion of the damage of spamming charge attacks into Vortex comes from the charge attacks themselves. Compared to that, the Vortex is doing about... (25/10/5/1)% of damage for (1/2/3/4) members in your party charging into the Vortex. (Percentages were made up but chosen to represent how much damage I think the Vortex does compared to parties charging into it.

Furthermore if even 2 party members charge attack into it 'most' of the enemies will be dead anyway, even in parties of 4. Electron, however, has a far better chance of keeping the (now weakened) enemies in the same clump so you can finish them easily.

Also this weird misconception that Electron Vortex can't hold Kats. No matter how many times it's said it seems to propagate. Electron and Graviton Vortices have the same suction power. They have the same suction radii. And they pull in the same targets. Kats and other fast moving mobs can get out of either if they're moving fast enough.

It's also not really about ease of crowd control with these. It's more about efficiency and brutal speed. You can clear a wave of constructs with Polaris in a minute or two maybe. You can clear that same way in a single Vortex+Brandish combo, something on the order of maybe 10 seconds?

It does offer some nice crowd control effects that not a lot of other things do, like bunching enemies up so they aren't everywhere on the map (something where the Graviton fails because it spits them out unless you group up enough), but its speed and efficiency are the true selling points.

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Shoutentenshu
@Velcro And Aumir

What your saying is not really fair, though i agree a vortex is great and that it´s damage is quite irrelevant you cant really compare the two. not to mention that your including the vortex + other players with brandishes. and Aumir if comparing the two (Electron vortex / Graviton Vortex) the electron would be better overall, as it will hold the enemies and has AoE Damage (shock). of course the graviton would be better against slimes and gremlins.
Both the polaris and the vortex are great at crowd control its just a matter of what you want.

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Flists
Really tempted to troll with

Really tempted to troll with "TL:DR," but this actually intrigues me. I'll post something more constructive when I've taken the time to read the giant OP.

This situation occurs often in the form of danger rooms, in which you cannot possibly predict what kind of monsters you will fight.
This actually isn't true, you can predict what monsters you will fight in a danger room by looking at the design of the room.

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Oatmonster
Lick

Where da heck is Ma RSS!

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Fehzor

@Aumir

While the damage on the vortex bombs is not bad, its still more effective to attack with other weapons over them, making the best part their suction. Electron is better for everything but gremlins (and of course, you would not want to use either on fiends), in which case graviton is somewhat better due to the way they dodge and don't get sucked up very quickly/still wack you from inside of it. For slimes, electron is still better due to how well it holds them in. As Velcro said, the damage is somewhat irrelevant compared to the massive sword damage to follow.

@Shoutentenshu

You should have a period of time where you can inspect your team mates or ask them to bring something with which to smash the things in the vortex. Almost all of the swords in the game will work with vortex, and since swordies aren't exactly what I would call rare, finding someone who can and will take advantage of the situations you cause should not be a problem. Read @Aumir for why electron is better for slimes.

Also consider that while polaris is nice for knocking things back, it is outclassed in both damage and effect by storm driver, which lacks the knockback. (this is good as people generally do not appreciate you hitting enemies around randomly)

@Flists

Unlike you, I lack the clairvoyance to see into the ready room from the equipment box thing.

@Oatmonster

Due to the balance changes to come, I left RSS out as I'll probably have to re-write it anyway.

If it WAS in there, it would be as the best damage per cost weapon, as well as the best bomb for damage against undead, and one of the best items against fiends. But the devs are removing it, so..

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Shoutentenshu
hmm

though i understand where your going, i was simply refering to the crowd control aspect of the polaris (knockback,shock,radius). Also though i understand you wrote alot, Would it be possible for you to add lockdown and boss aspects to that wall of text?

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Fehzor

I added boss aspects, although there are 2 problems with lockdown aspects:
-The devs may be changing it to have monsters during the last minute, and the entire thing is unbalanced and biased towards a handful of weapons; the monster changes and newer maps may be attempts to fix this in a subtle manner.
-I don't play lockdown nearly enough to write such a thing. While I get the gist of what goes down in T3 lockdown, I don't play it regularly.

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Shoutentenshu
Ah

I wasent aware that there might be monsters Thanks.

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Tenkii
@Neutralizer

Just a little note, but Neutralizer's charge raw damage is more powerful than Biohazard's on neutral enemies.

ex: Biohazard with max damage will 450-460 on D24 vs neutral enemies, but Neutralizer will deal exactly 500 per charge.

Of course, its effective damage is definitely way stronger though. I would say Neutralizer is better on everything except jellies, but even then, it's only enough to make a single charge's difference.

Also, they work wonderfully with Vortex bombs.

Imagen de Fehzor
Fehzor

Biohazard and Neutralizer cannot compete with other damage dealing weapons as anything but 'helper' weapons due to two things- first, they are slow to deal damage, and even if their raw damage outputs are high, the actual damage that they do will be cut down by you trying to pull it off, and by your team mates who must either work around you or otherwise kill your damage output outright.

That being said, it has the potential to be the best weapon in the game outright- if you were to form a group of knights whom all had and knew how to use it. Biohazard/neutralizer are probably the hardest weapons in the game to master in such a fashion; the timing is crucial, and there are hardly enough knights to even have the capacity to use it.

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Hemsy-Mule
Good PVE guide, you should

Good PVE guide, you should make your own guide to the wiki dude !

Anyway i bet this is not taking lockdown in account, you should mention it at the beginning.

If you included lockdown, we should have an argument ! =)

(>")> Hemsy.

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Fehzor

Its not a guide, its a discussion. Much of what I write is opinion, and I would like to hear people say things about the balance issues of each item. I also left off iron slug for some reason, so I'll go back and add that.

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Nubskills
Nyan nyan nyan nyan....

From what I read in another thread that tested DPS between antiguas and drivers, firing all except the last round before reload and pausing would lead to antiguas doing higher dps against single targets, followed closely by drivers, unless driver bullets ricochet 2-3 times, which would then deal the same dps as antiguas. So antiguas may have the higher dps, but for single targets, whereas drivers can deal consistent ricochet damage in crowds, while offering higher mobility than antiguas, if you skip the reload on both guns. Firing the 5 bullets in antiguas can slow down the user a lot, which would be troublesome for close-up enemies. Drivers also have around double the range of antiguas, allowing driver users to keep their distance from enemies and stay mobile while still being able to deal damage. Antiguas and drivers remind me of your description of the heavy swords: that their intended roles can somewhat also be carried out by other weapons, e.g. DA to brandishes.
On pulsar guns, the wiki damage values say that valiance shots deal similar damage to polaris shots, while polaris can deal easy AoE damage, and Supernova can deal around twice the amount of those guns per shot.(However, Valiance's speed is very useful as a damage weapon against enemies that move above low speeds, which may elude pulsar shots.) Pulsars also have the potential of pinning enemies to walls with knockback, although the shock from polaris might prevent enemies from being pushed back, allowing them to get closer. This would need polaris charge shots or another knockback weapon to push them back at close ranges. The knockback is also good at moving mobs from a distance, which can be useful when soloing, and when in a party if you watch your teammates. I'm not promoting pulsars or anything, I just feel that they aren't as bad as some make them out to be, possibly due to the number of polaris spammers ingame.

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Fehzor

Polaris is not bad as a side weapon for a swordy/bomber to take out turrets with, but as a main source of damage it is poor due to the chaotic nature of the shots.

Antiguas and drivers are more a matter of preference, and each is better for different things.

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Bella-Donna
@Fehzor

@Fehzor: Lets make a group of people for biohazard/neutralizer only runs! xD you know, just for fun. I would love to see how a biohazard group deals with an ice queen shadow lair.

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Fehzor

Sure, friend me. I'd be glad to do it.

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Poopsie
necro bump... being a jerk...

Thought about brandishes. I think Glacius is the most dangerous brandish to use because on latter depth all brandishes charge does not have enough damage to knock out/cancel the monster's attack animation and freeze (which does not help on damage) would occur prematurely that you can get hurt by their attack. Meanwhile, combuster being safest as the knock back makes safe distance even though monsters are dashing/jumping toward you, however I still need to look out whether my other party members not in the explosion path. Volt edge on some occasion could have better damage than Combuster. This is due to nature of shock effect. Monster get hurt by shock damage each time the attack inflict shocks onto them. One charge could potentially inflict shock a monster up to 4 times. Assuming the best scenario, there are 8 monsters near each other and get inflicted by shock 4 times. Each monster will get 32x shock damage. Assuming shock damage somewhere around 27, and fire damage somewhere around 107 (also fire inflict only once, unlike shock). Shock could easily outdamage. The cancelling knock back effect also could be a good thing. You could continue your attack (charge -> first swing -> final swing) to make up the damage loss.
Another plus on volt edge, the shock effect makes mecha bots on arena 2x easier to deal since they spent twice the time electrocuting themselves.

Bomber part, combining haze bombs like ash of agni and voltaic tempest (probably better if I had electron vortex, but alas I only have 2 weapon slot most of the time) for any monsters that have no resistance has good dps. I used it when I am rushing ahead while other party members doing different part like I am doing west part of first depth of jelly king palace while others doing east part.

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Fehzor

@poopsie
Yeah, glacius can be dangerous like that, but chances are that you're attacking them from the side, or at least at an angle where they won't be able to get you when they get frozen. Though after they get frozen, you've got quite a few options opened up for yourself- hit them again, let them defrost while attacking more enemies, etc. Combuster is better for enemies that spread out/are less, and voltedge is best for large clumps of zombies, if DPS is a concern. Of course, all are good for crowd control.

And you're absolutely correct about the haze bombs, ash of agni/vt can be used for DPS, but are going to be outclassed by other forms of combat as there will be enemies left over in the end- which can usually be taken care of with something along the lines of a leviathan blade/valiance.

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Bopp
some counterpoints

on latter depth all brandishes charge does not have enough damage to knock out/cancel the monster's attack animation

Perhaps I'm misreading this --- it's a bit unclear --- but my Combuster charge routinely one-shot-kills monsters at all depths. I can walk up to a lumber from the front, charge it as its attack animation is starting, and kill the lumber without suffering any damage myself.

Combuster is better for enemies that spread out/are less, and voltedge is best for large clumps of zombies, if DPS is a concern.

The area-damage of shock is an important consideration, but the knockback-canceling of shock is also an important consideration, if it causes the monsters not to ride the entire charge attack. I mean, damage from shock is nice, but damage from charge attack explosions is bigger and quicker.

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Fehzor

Exactly, if you have a huge clump of enemies that will get stuck on one another, the shock will deal more damage and have a greater effect on it, while the fire will be better if they can ride the shots for full effect. If you have a huge number of something that is going to end up spread apart for whatever reason, the fire status alone will also do more damage.

Edit- Added a description of the blitz.

No-Thanks
lol

description of blitz xD

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Flamearc
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