Necessary changes to guns. Devs fixed RSS, so it is time to fix my OP unintended OHKO handguns for fairness :)
Dom, 08/12/2012 - 15:27
Dear developers, I want you to make sure that you know that there are in fact things that need to be fixed with handguns just like with bombs when you fixed RSS. Only to be fair to bombers, since bombers received their fixes. One reason for removing the old shard bombs was because it wasn't intended to one shot swipey monsters. The Alchemer charge attack can currently one shot Turrets, zombies, etc. Fixes to this, as well as other gun things, are suggested below.
I am a gunner, not a bomber trying to get revenge on guns.
I have been gunning for 11 months. I am in fact a gunner, and yes, all of the changes below are nerfs. Sorry, but if you read nothing else in this post, at least read that I have been gunning for 11 months and I am not someone who hates gunners / out for revenge. Some things about guns need to be addressed.
>>>Issue No. 1. Shooting and pausing to avoid reloading, when you are supposed to reload guns. You know. 'Cause they are guns.
This seems as if it is not intended, and it is awkward to not have any benefit for shooting off an entire clip except for Callahan's interruptions and knockdowns. Rather than buffing the last bullet of a gun, we need to make it so that if one was to fire off the entire clip, they will have the same exact damage that guns deal now: the shots will average out to deal 100% bullet damage per shot.
This will slightly nerf people who shoot and pause while make no change in damage for those who fire off the entire clip.
All we need to do is make gun bullets build in damage the more shots we repeatedly hit the target with. This building damage will drop off should we pause much like we would pause in not reloading our guns to start from bullet 1 again. This shouldn't be too difficult to implement for the developers at all. We HAVE seen you make the third strike of swords deal more damage than the first two. We CAN see you make the first shots of guns deal less damage, and the last shots of guns deal more damage.
RP-wise: The more ya hit something, the more it hurts?
Antiguas would build like this:
First bullet: 75% of the damage that it deals now.
Second bullet: 85% of the damage that it deals now.
Third bullet: 95% damage.
Fourth bullet: 100% damage.
Fifth bullet: 115% damage.
Sixth bullet: 130% damage.
If you shoot an entire clip, the damage of each bullet will average out to equal exactly the same damage as it is currently (100% damage). This will in fact be a nerf to those who shoot all but one bullet and pause. Although shooting and pausing will be safer, you will deal less damage. There are benefits to both shoot and pause (safety) as well as to shoot off a whole clip (damage).
Now what if a gunner pauses after the fifth shot instead of finishing off the last bullet? Every bullet will average out to have only dealt 94% of regular damage. That is a fair shoot-pause deduction for a gun that it is difficult to build damage / fire off every bullet with in comparison to guns that fire fewer shots.
Alchemers and other 2 shot guns would build like this:
First bullet: 85% damage.
Second bullet: 115% damage.
Just like the antiguas, it will average out to be exactly the same damage as it is currently should you fire an entire clip, but be detrimental to the people who shoot and pause and don't reload for safety.
Now what if a gunner pauses after the first shot? That bullet will have only dealt 85% of regular damage. This is absolutely fair when compared to the Antiguas, as it is more difficult to shoot off an entire Antigua clip, therefore more difficult to build damage with an Antigua, rather than build damage with an Alchemer.
Polaris and other 3 shot guns would build like this:
First bullet: 80% damage.
Second bullet: 100% damage.
Third bullet: 120% damag.
Now what if a gunner pauses after the second shot? Every bullet will average out to have dealt 90% damage. This is fair, considering it is easier to build damage with a 3 shot gun than an Antigua, but harder to build damage with a 3 shot gun than a 2 shot gun.
This may negatively affect those in Lockdown as shooting an entire clip is not a good idea, but we have to realize that this is a PvE based game not built around PvP much like just about every other PvE based game with PvP.
>>>Issue No. 2, Blitz Needle Omegacharges. Blitz is intended to OHKO I am fairly certain, it is just a little bit too much currently.
We completely cloud out anything else in single target damage. This isn't technically a nerf, this is just undoing a buff.
A while ago, all guns were buffed: 20% in damage, 25% in charge. But the developers buffed ALL guns, not all guns EXCEPT for Blitz Needle.
I hope every gunner can agree that Blitz Needle charge is pretty OP. Its risk doesn't match its godly reward, albeit quite a risk. Undoing a buff shouldn't be that big of a deal at all.
25% damage nerf in order to make it the damage that it used to be.
>>>Overlooked Issue No. 3, Alchemer normal shots: Too much RNG (Random Number Generator / Luck). Alchemer charge attacks: Too much power.
>>Part A, Normal shots.
Alchemers can deal more single target DPS and AoE DPS than any gun excluding the Blitz (since Blitz's sheer force clouds out any perfect Alchemer RNG), but depending on RNG (random number generator, the angles at which bullets split are random but always to the same direction) as well as skill (positioning). This means that you could theoretically do more damage with a Polaris against a Vortexed cluster of enemies, for example. Or... you could not, depending all upon where that Alchemer bullet lands in that Vortexed cluster and where its splits land.
Against a single target, one can clip a single bullet and its split bullet into that one monster, damaging it for 200% damage per bullet. You have to have good positioning, and it is very possible and simple to do. Although you cannot do it every time due to RNG (in this case, the angle from the original path to the split path being extremely small), it is still very common and easy to do.
Against a group of enemies, you can liquefy two zombies should they be positioned correctly and should you shoot it correctly. Remember how a bullet can hit two to three enemies when shot inbetween them due to slight splash? Guess what: so can split bullets. This means, with it bouncing twice, you can deal 300% damage to each zombie with a total of 600% damage to two zombies per shot. I sure do love a gun where one bullet equals six. RNG isn't even a factor with perfect positioning.
The main argument with the Alchemers power is that it requires skill and positioning to get massive damage. But it truly doesn't, it took me a couple hours in FSC to learn how to demolish crowds of zombies with an Alchemer. The main factor is RNG, or the chance that the angle it splits off to will benefit you greatly and hit many monsters, possibly hit between them. But the RNG can also be terrible, making split bullets absolutely useless though that will take some bad positioning and skill.
So I propose that we make the Alchemer less RNG / Luck based, and deal less damage on the split bullets. Skill > Luck. This way, it is easier to position Alchemer splits and get greater numbers should you be skilled at positioning, but the raw numbers of the splits won't be quite as much. Make the range of angles the split can possibly split off to smaller, and make the damage of each split somewhere around 80% of its current damage. This will also make the moments when the Alchemer shines a bit too brightly, like when shot between two monsters, a little bit less ridiculous.
This compliments my earlier suggestion of the Alchemer's building damage, since RNG would totally wreck the gun since the second (higher damage) shot could benefit greatly from good luck. Since it is less RGN based, each shot will count but the damage won't be as severe.
To finish off my building damage suggestion, this is how the Alchemers will actually build:
First bullet: 85% damage. Split bullets: 70% damage.
Second bullet: 115% damage. Split bullets: 90% damage.
>>Part B, Charged Shots.
OHKOing things with the charge attack is not intended by the developers, just like RSS OHKOing was not intended.
Suggestion 1: Make there only 2 splits with charge attack rather than 4 (similar to 2, 3, and 4 star alchemers). This would be the best option to remove side clipping, while being the greatest nerf.
Suggestion 2: Reduce the damage of the splits by roughly 20%. This option wouldn't entirely remove side clipping, but still help.
I am not saying do both suggestion 1 and 2, I am saying one OR the other.
____________________________
tl,dr; errrrr there isn't really one I am sorry :(
Dom, 08/12/2012 - 16:57
#2
"Have you done calculations
"Have you done calculations in regards to the DPS of stopping at the fifth bullet, shield-canceling and immediately start shooting opposed to shooting all six bullet and sitting through the reload animations?"
What happens when you do this, is that you are missing out on the bullets that deal greater damage. So although you get more bullets off theoretically while shooting and pausing (which is hard to prove, even) you will miss out on raw damage.
To specifically answer this question, it is (as you said, maybe 6%) very slightly if any faster to shoot all but one and pause. So the damage bonus to the later shots and the damage reduction to the earlier shots to even it out will make sense.
"I'm also wondering about Polaris. Polaris is a broom used to push mobs, and as such you'll often want to spread the shots over multiple mobs. Are the successive shots just getting more damaging or would you have to focus all the shots on the same enemy?"
Think of Divine Avenger. The first strike deals smaller damage than the second strike. DA damage isn't calculated based on which mobs were already hit, but rather, the strike itself.
The same would work with the damage building, which is why I stress this should be easy to implement.
Just like OOO has managed to find a way to specifically improve the damage of the second DA strike, they could likely do the same to guns. Make the first shot itself deal less damage, make the second shot itself deal more damage, etc etc.
You are not "technically" building damage. It is just that the first shots themselves deal less damage and the last shots themselves deal more damage.
Regarding Blitz Needle: "Maybe only nerf the charge so that there is merit to using the regular attack at all?"
Definately, keep the normal attack at what it is for Blitz Needle.
"In my runs, I don't observe Alchemers much so I didn't even know the charge spread was random."
The charge spread is fixed, the normal shots are random angles in a fixed direction (left of your character). I didn't do anything regarding the alchemer charge attack, and thank you for reminding me to put this bit into the OP: The alchemer's charged attack's splits will deal 80% of the damage they are currently dealing. This should held reduce the awkward side clipping to OHKO things since this was not intended by the developers.
Dom, 08/12/2012 - 16:52
#3
Double Post
Edited the OP.
Dom, 08/12/2012 - 17:34
#4
Doing it right
I support the first change to set a consecutive impact increase system for guns. It would allow gunners to still use the pause cancelling effect but at a slight loss of damage. It would make sidearm guns "less effective" for some, but for most it would make using guns as your primary weapon more worthwhile. It would also push gunners to think before they shoot so they know what to do before they get trapped, blocked, etc.
I also support the second change to undo the damage buff for Blitz. The same should be applied to the other two Autogun lines in spite of how "underpowered" they may be. The change would apply to Blitz more so than for Plague and V.Pepperbox due to all three having high damage from consecutive impact damage building up damage to a high end amount. I would also go so far as to support a universal damage nerf following the nerf to Autogun lines by 20% for all three weapon types followed by more rebalancing for individual items. We do not need all of this damage. I am not saying to make us deal less damage than average Clockworks enemies, but to even out the tilt so enemies have more of a chance to land a hit before they die in one or two hits. There are countless tactical options in battle but most of them are overshadowed by dealing significant damage immediately to kill in a couple seconds.
The Alchemer change I am on the fence. I support changing the ricochet effect so it bounces based on the direction it made contact with the object, since random angle bouncing is stupid and lazy on their part, but the charge attack is a gem for gunners. Though the weak reasons behind the shard bomb change involved multi-impacts from the projectiles, for Alchemers the damage adds up well for how it works. The bullets are supposed to bounce. If you can make multiple bullets happen to make contact, maybe even have the bullets bounce in a bunch of enemies bunched up together, that was all you for using a gun designed to have bouncing bullets. Its damage can be reduced somewhat, but same as earlier we may as well lower damage for all our weapons then go through and rebalance individual items.
Dom, 08/12/2012 - 18:06
#5
Yeah, the main part about my
Yeah, the main part about my Alchemer normal attack section is that I don't like it being so luck based. Your idea of it bouncing off of what it hit and how it hit it sounds great but it would be tough to implement, however. But I doubt making the angles it splits off to less random would also be tough to implement xD
But what I am really getting at here, is that Alchemer charge attack. Make it split off twice instead of four times at 5* just like the 2*, 3*, and 4* do. Just to be fair to RSS bombers, I don't think we deserve to unintentionally OHKO things either. Yes, I got CTR UVs on three alchemers; each UV'd alchemer costed me about 2k CE each. Bombers also got CTR UVs on their RSS, just ask Rommil.
I think consistency would be great, and if OOO would let me not feel like I have an unfair advantage when it comes to one shotting turrets even though bombers no longer one shot what they used to one shot, I would surely be happy <3
Dom, 08/12/2012 - 21:11
#6
Hmmm
I understand the logic behind the damage build up, but I do not think it is the right way to go about this. One of the reasons you already mentioned, being lockdown. Also, the time it takes to reload is so long (on some guns) that pausing before reload may turn out to have equal DPS anyway. The damage difference in the long run just isn't big enough to make people want to shoot that last shot. I think it'd be better to just force the reload after shooting the whole clip, maybe with a slightly reduce movement penalty.
As for Blitz charge nerf, yes, it needs it. Though it only received a 20 percent increase in charge damage, not 25 (and 10 percent for normal shots, patch note is here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/53117 ). Other than that not much needs to be said here.
As for alchemers, I too am iffy about this. I do agree they need to be less random, but the bullets are supposed to bounce into other enemies. Maybe making it so the bullets do not bounce into the same target so much along side nerfing the damage of the bounces would balance out these guns better, as the shots are supposed to bounce.
Lun, 08/13/2012 - 14:50
#7
I don't see the need
First of, I have to ask a simple question: Why should it be punished to avoid reloading? Except for the RP thing with "guns have to be reloaded" I can't see a reason to this. And just to have mentioned it, this guns run on nothing material, as you have unlimited ammo, so reloading could be seen as a "heat discharge" for whatever runs this things. Which would in turn justify avoiding reloading.
Not shooting a clip needs a bit of focus and is a lot more "work" than just going around and shooting non stop like a madman. With weakening the first shots and making the latter ones stronger you would encourage mindless shooting as just firing the whole clip has the same effect on the damage as keeping track of when and how often you fire.
Also, and this is probably my greatest issue with this, making each shot different is something entirely different than making sword strikes different. As a gunner you are not bound to focus on a single enemy, it is not the one directly in front of you but whatever you feel like hitting. Giving every shot a different strength would mess up how you deal with enemys and further encourage not caring about it. You can't keep track about what enemy you hit how often, because you would also have to check which shot hit them. Furthermore what if you hit on the first and miss on the following one because enemys tend to dodge. The damage loss would be devastating.
But that's just my ideas.
And while I do agree that the Blitz Charge is quite powerful, maybe too powerful, yes, nerfing so many guns is too much. I am sure I do not have to explain any of you the ups and downs of weapons and right now I just don't see them as such a powerful group. Sure your "six times the damage" Alchemer example is really nice, but how often do you manage such a shot? Your description of the Alchemer is, in my opinion, completly over the top. I used it myself and have almost never seen it on others. It isn't the holy grail of weapons as you describe it, in fact, I put it away as it was too slow, has a long reloading time and only two shots.
My opinion as well, but I'd appreciate it if it was taken into consideration.
Mar, 08/14/2012 - 16:22
#8
Another thing I forgot to mention
If these nerfs were to come to pass, then swords BETTER have it coming for them, as they are far more powerful than any of these save the blitz needle on single targets. Keep in mind weapons have to be balanced not only according to each in the same category, but also against other categories. This would make guns balanced when comparing them with other guns, but when comparing them to swords, most definitely not.
@El-Odio
I can kill two mobs with a single alchemer charge shot given the mobs are next to each other (fire the shot square in between them, both mobs dead). It can be with a hail driver too, doesn't have to be with a nova driver. Now, vs other guns (besides Blitz and Plague) it's OP, but vs other weapons it's not. That's why I'm iffy about nerfing them.
Mar, 08/14/2012 - 14:54
#9
What I said
Exacly what I meant.
Regarding the Alchemer, is this about zombies only? Because Gremlins, I only have the Umbra, don't tend to die from just one shot, even if aligned right.
However, that aside, I find it far more important that guns trigger evasion. That alone is something that makes guns weaker, even though indirectly. Ever tried killing Devilites with a gun? Ain't fun I tell you.
Mar, 08/14/2012 - 15:05
#10
Yeah, lets buff all those
Yeah, lets buff all those guns again, like one buff wasnt enough.
all damage percentages above 100% of current damage are not acceptable. Last shot 100% of current damage, shots before less % but not more for 100%. Its just like asking for another gun buff.
Mar, 08/14/2012 - 16:21
#11
Responses
@El-Odio
It's on anything weak to the alchemer's attribute. Might be able to do it on a neutral target with a max damage Nova/Umbra, but I haven't tried. The main key is to get the main bullet of the charge shot to hit both mobs instead of only one of them. I do own all of the alchemers; All of them are capable of this on targets weak to them. The ones with statuses need a medium damage bonus though. Maybe if we add each other ingame I can show you.
@Asukalan
I think you misunderstand. This does not buff the gun's damage at all, just divides the damage differently between the shots in each clip. This will not increase gun's damage at all. If anything, it will only nerf it for those who shoot-stop-shoot (although not by much).
Mar, 08/21/2012 - 00:20
#12
Gun Balance
Yeah even as a swordie w/ an array of sidearms, even sometimes half and half (2 of each with using swords more and sword gear) I love the first one a lot. I like the Blitz charge nerf, though i think you could keep it stronger the further away the target is, as the biggest issue is close up; not a lot of logic, but i suppose you could say they combust at a certain range and increase in heat or something like that. The alchemer charge doesnt OHKO unless maybe solo for certain things FOR ME lol, as i don't use gun gear by any means (i can OHKO Undead solo w/ RSM/Undead Med with charge though)
Overall, decent post, though as far swords I still think nothing but part of the Brandish line needs to be nerfed; maybe making the explosions weaker or less range. DA and the heavier ones, and possibly FF but only really for LD... maybe a small Fiend Penaly low or maybe an uneven Piearce/Normal ratio since its extra damage is the real issue. Skolvers woulnd't like in LD. but I dunno. Other than that they are supposed to be a mix, though I understand some being OP; though they don't do better than guns that do something similar when in ratio to their risk IMO. But some should be tweaked/changed in small ways that could do a lot to make them seem the only choice for XY or Z at least and add some balance with other types.
I will probably edit this later. And bumpin it because i like it a lot.
Inebriated :D
Mar, 08/21/2012 - 00:54
#13
Nerfing the two arms of the race.
The nerfs suggested above appear to lack more detailing on the part of the other gun lines, but intuition can grant a decent preview I'd imagine. Magnus sees alchemer change, 3 shot guns get polaris nerf, etc. They'd also likely add a little incentive to the other lines of guns.
The blitz nerfing has been suggested more than once, supported just the same through and through. +1
Alchemer nerfing? I think that's within some reason. The charge nerf is something I can't readily agree with, 5* is a name-level, in all base, for your equipment, it's where the equipment shines brightest intentionally. I'd prefer maintaining the 4 bullet bounce. -1
The regular shot "nerf" is actually what I've been waiting for since I first got an alchemer in my arsenal. I was always bugged by the fact that the shot never went to the right.... I thought that'd honestly be common sense. The shots ricochet, therefore if I shoot it at an angle intended to go to the right (due to the typically acute angle nature of the ricochets) it should go RIGHT. This would also, far as I know, eliminate/help eliminate the 'internal ricochet problem' so many people seem to complain about. (just means vana keeps more fireballs so my charge bounces back into him anyway) +1
The shot building theory stays in line with the way damage is most typically dealt in SK, more attacks made, the worse it gets. +1
As a sidenote, using a random number generator is wasteful and is very lazy... as it just loads up on the server. However, that does not mean we need a Sealed Sword nerf.
Oh, and RC, congrats on making me think you were Lug for a sec.
My input comes as a bomber who occasionally uses guns. My friend with whom I frequently run has both Antigua-lines, Polaris and Plague Needle. I have Polaris, Callahan and Biohazard; myself.
Damage build-up
Have you done calculations in regards to the DPS of stopping at the fifth bullet, shield-canceling and immediately start shooting opposed to shooting all six bullet and sitting through the reload animations? My gut instinct tells me that the the reload time adds considerably more than 6% idling time but I'd have to bust out a stopwatch to make any actual claims. I'm talking specifically about Antiguas here, as that's the one with the most bullets you can put out before canceling and thus seems like it'd be the least affected by this change.
No matter how you slice it, that final shot needs to make a very large difference.
I'm also wondering about Polaris. Polaris is a broom used to push mobs, and as such you'll often want to spread the shots over multiple mobs. Are the successive shots just getting more damaging or would you have to focus all the shots on the same enemy?
Blitz Needle
Agreed. Maybe only nerf the charge so that there is merit to using the regular attack at all?
Blitz Needle
In my runs, I don't observe Alchemers much so I didn't even know the charge spread was random. As far as I'm aware, Alchemers are the only weapon with a randomness element aside from status infliction and it seems like a very odd design decision. Why don't Blitz Bullets act like this? The Snarble charge? The old RSS? Random spread just seems inconsistent and like it uses more bandwidth and server resources in a way other weapons do not.
Agreed, in other words.