Guns that fire bullets --- All of them (Guns don't have to fire bullets btw we could have guns as rocket guns we shoot it hits an area then explodes)

Swords that do a mix:

Bullet Swords:

Sealed sword line with ctr

Winmillon line

Brandishes ---basically act as a gun with ctr

Swords that create area of damage:

Striker Line
Fov
Hammer
Cali line

Everything is pretty clear the Rss has been overpowered since beta the bullet action the bomb had and the damage output was way 2 powerful. They changed the bombs and added new bombs which work pretty well if you know how to use them with certain gear.

The Rss is gone now we have new bombs deal with it if its way 2 hard for you to not be able to play Spiral Knights without it I guess the only option is to quit.

The old RSS is still way outclassed by the current Blitz needle - just saying (if we want to talk about overpowered)

DA and GF shoot projectile/bullet swords when you use the charge. The Brandishes do explosions like Polaris bullets with the charge aswell.

The Rss --- was basically an overpowered gun the damage output was too high the rss bullets flew farther than the Blitz or any other gun in that aspect.

I believe that the weapons are a bit more balanced now.

Serell,

I think you've really confused yourself.

Step away from your wonder "maths" and find the dry eraser.

That is all.

I replied how I wished to reply =)

The Rss was gun-like you can ask any good bomber they will confirm that. A gun can be aimed easily so can the Rss if you knew how to use it well. The damage outputs would of had to have a total change even on a 4* scale it was overpowered. They could of just made minor adjustments and added these new lines, or they could of did what they did. They could of never added Ce to this game either and let us play for free we can always argue what the team could of done differently. They could of not gave us forums to use. They could of banned all of us by now. They could of hired Artistbma as a lead programmer. They could take over the United States. They could be planning to merge this game into Runescape. They could add new monsters that look like sonic. This game of they could of done this is fun lets keep playing.

I can't wait for next year!!! How many more people we can trick!!

@Njthug

Of course. And Y U No Respond In Your Eury Persona?!

PS: The of course part was sarcasm.

I don't understand why people keep bringing this up.

I think that "swords do a mix of the two" is more to the fact that at close range they hit multiple targets, and some have a larger range on charge. But lets look at the rest of this.

Guns shoot, Bombs deal AOE (explode), and Swords slash.

Name one weapon that does not follow this as its primary action.

Cutter: Slashes
Flourish: Slashes
Sealed line: Slashes on combo, Shoots on charge
Brandish: Slashes on combo, Shoots on charge
Calibur: Slashes on combo, Explodes on charge
Hammer/Troika: Slashes on normal, Explodes on charge.
Spurs: Slash and then shoots.

Autoguns: Shoots.
Blaster: Shoots.
Alchemer: Shoots and creates extra Shots on bounce/charge.
Catalyzer: Shoots, sets Explosions on charge.
Pulsar: Shoots, expands to explode at range.
Antigua: Shoots.
Magnus: Shoots.

Blast bomb: Explodes.
Haze bombs: Small Explosion, large status cloud.
Spine Cone: Explodes.
Charges: Small Explosion, pulls in, Explodes.
Dark Retribution: Small Explosion, rotating rings of damage.
Current Shards: Explodes, spreads out, Explodes.

Old Shards: Shoots out single hits in 8 directions.

Now, which weapon doesn't follow this pattern?
If you honestly say that the old RSS was a bomb, then so are the Alchemers.

Nick DID promise us "new combat options," whatever that means...

Nj is a suck up to OOO, so its hard not to believe his statements are not biased

a bit more balanced? it barely leaves a scratch to those who are sitting on top of the bomb in pvp.

too OP since beta? no one bothers to say it was too OP till lockdown was launched.

funny how the bomb has being around for longer than a year, and nick would want to change it all the sudden due to "not very bomb-like."

If the range was the main concern, then nerf the range. Changing the mechanics and making it useless in pvp, and inferior to other blast bombs in pve is a joke.

and it is a shard bomb, what do u expect other than shooting out shards? o wait, it did shoot out shards.

eh, PvP is a small blip in the game. The thing is, people who play PvP seem to make up a large portion of the noisy forum posters.

The Deadly Crystal Bomb is a good zombie killing bomb. (haven't really tried it on mechas). I will go so far as to say it is by FAR the best zombie killing bomb. Sure, the old RSS could 1-shot a single zombie, but the new DCB can handle large groups of zombies with ease. Maybe it is too much for most elite forum posting players to handle, but really the slight pushing around isn't a bid deal.

As for "funny" that it is "not very bomb like", well they changed the Fiery Pepperbox from pulling in monsters to pushing them away months after the gun was introduced claiming that they never intended for it to pull monsters in. Considering how long it took OOO to actually fix the UI freezeup when dieing during a prompt and other various bugs I'm not surprised it took them that long to remove a bomb that wasn't being used as they intended.

What Eltia said. It was way easier to modify how the bomb worked than scrap it and make such a weird bomb. If we wanted to be "purists" to the old RSS but without "abusing" shot distance and multiple damage when close by (like... Voltaic Tempest?) They could have made a small Blast Bomb (no knockback) explosion that spawned at the edge of the sphere the 8 shards, and halve the distance they traveled.

There is also many ways bombs could work, like mines, rockets, frag grenades already mentioned, actually throwable grenades... but nope, we must only have "leave and area burst" bombs, while guns and swords have many different patterns.

Like "Death charge at close range" Blitz Needle, with that rapid fire stuff.

Nowhere in Nicks "why we're changing RSS" post was it ever mentioned that RSS was too powerful, only that it was too gun like.... which is ridiculous. Yes, it had bullets, but it was almost never used like a gun, and it could have easily been changed to avoid being like a gun in any way by reducing the range of the shards by a bit. No one (or no significant number of people) complained about it, or thought it was over powered until after the update as well.

This is why the changes came up:

Currently, shard-style bombs create a series of bullets on detonation, effectively acting like a handgun attack in multiple directions. The new changes will instead cause these bombs to create an initial explosion on detonation that then fires a series of non-damaging shards in multiple directions.

^So like I argued already Rss and Ionized Salt both were gun like bombs.

I believe that and agree with Nick on this statement:

They are the standouts in the system we’ve tried to build whereby: guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two.

They have been trying to build a system where guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the both. Not, all the weapons follow these guidelines in your view or mine, but majority of them do, and most importantly the Game Developers feel they do at this given point (I am not certain of this statement only because I do not work for them or know what they think since I can not read their thoughts, but one day when I can I can be 100% certain).

So conclusion:

Bombs got changed since they were more gun like than bomb like.

So, you mean RSS couldn't have turned into an 8-shaped asterisk area?

As someone suggested in the bring back old RSS thread yesterday. One effect RSS could have is stun, because well, when frags hit your target but not killing them, that should impair their movement right? So stun is the perfect effect to accompany RSS.

So in summary, fixing RSS is very easy. We only need two tweaks:

1. cap the travel distance of RSS' shards, and have the shard's damage decreases as they travel distance. My feeling is that we can use an exponential function here, so the damage drops off very quickly and so a skillful bomber would need to time RSS carefully so that multiple shards would land in short range. So it makes perfect sense for RSS to one shot Slag Guards.
2. add stun effect to shards.

That's it folks. A true RSS bomb that is very bomb like (it's a frag grenade), suggested by someone who has been playing bomber since Day 1 on SK. And this RSS can co-exists with the new cluster bomb because they serve two different niches for bombers. Cluster bombs are for corridors situation, whereas RSS is for access denial.

It's not hard. OOO didn't do it right the first time because they have been listening / asking the wrong people. Find the right guys to ask (people who play with bombs on a daily basis), be humble and listen to what they said, you would get one good working bomb that everybody loves and 0 rage storm among the playerbase.

@Serell
"Nope. It exploded and then shot out shards, like a shrapnel BOMB."
Did the explosion actually do damage? Was there ever a time you said "I'm glad I has the RSS explosion there"? If you were on top of them with it, you were multi-hitting with the shards, which you can still do with an Alch. I have never once heard someone actually use the explosion area as the primary reason for using the RSS, which doesn't help much for making it a bomb other than in name.

"Before the RSS change, MOST bombs were AoE. MOST explosions do AoE, but NOT ALL. There was nothing wrong with a bomb that didn't have great AoE. The RSS was the Blitz Needle of bombs."
You started this topic by quoting Nick, "Guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two." So yes every bomb should create an area of damage. Every shard only dealt 1 set of damage to a single target. This is not how AOE attacks work.

"Again, not ALL bombs need to be AoE, just like not ALL guns have to sacrifice damage for range (Blitz Needle does the complete opposite of every gun)."
Mid range is still safe and effective damage for the Blitz. You can't really say you did good damage only using the explosion on the RSS. The point I was making was that people keep using this argument when the old RSS fails at dealing any damage to more than 1 target in a direction.

"And for those that liked explosions but not AoE"
You are doing it wrong. How do you cause an explosion that does not affect what is in the the blast radius?

It sounds more like you have no idea what you want.

"Fragmentation Grenade"
Yes, this is a bomb. however, to use this as a basis on why the RSS should have not been changed is silly. A grenade does not shoot out shrapnel farther than most gun, nor can you stand 2 feet away from it and not get hurt. There is a place for this kind of bomb, but the old RSS was not this. All it needed was a tweaking to make it a bomb, but that's neither here nor there.

Honestly, Eltia's bomb is all that was needed in this situation.

@Zeddy
If you want to be literal, then yes, he said they dealt close range AOE damage, with the possibility of long range attacks. How does this change my list?

Using a basic action to create the effect was my definition. As you just pointed out, every sword has a close range attack that has no charge-up. Every gun has a long range attack. Every bomb excpet the old RSS deals damage to every target within a radius. Which weapon is wrong?

"Hadoken"
...Did you just say every single attack that shoots out a projectile is an AOE? So every gun should be considered a bomb as well?