Spiral Knights - About the CE price, OOO, and other of OOO's Sheningans

About the CE price, OOO, and other of OOO's Sheningans

32 replies [Last post]

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 12:15

Daclub

Greetings people, as you may have noticed the CE prices have gone crazy, first, I remember quite well how, CE price was 5.8k cr, then it got 6.4k cr, I admit, that's nothing to worry about, since there's one way you can buy it quick (FSC Farming) that wasn't anything we could worry about.

1. The CE prices
- On 25th of the February 2012 we encountered the CE price as being 8k cr, that was still not a problem, though people were complaining about it, because there could be a troll who may have changed drastically those CE prices, but still, you could still farm 100 CE easily, because of the FSC mission, King of Ashes which was released with the brand new missions update where missions get spruced up, split to Arcade missions to Rank missions, Prestige missions and Expansion missions. But that's not part of the discussion, so, on KoA you could actually farm 13k cr only consuming 50 ce, that was one way you could actually farm for money, but OOO apparently wanted to change that, just for the sake of their money maker, and they nerfed the KoA mission to 8k cr, that wasn't a problem either, because you still could get 100 ce per 1 KoA mission

- On 5th of the September we've encountered the 9k cr problem, this is completely unacceptable OOO, people can't even stay on the floating line, and that only obligues us to either buy your CE packs, either buy an elevator pass, I should just remind you that this is a F2P game, not a game where you get stuck in and wait a whole day just to recharge your mist. Here's one of the pics I made:

- http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/1136287006732679162/277FD56B0452D9D94F...

2. The Lag
-Mainly, SK is not supposed to have huge PC Requirements, so everyone could enjoy it, I shall share you those PC requirements, just so you can see what I mean:
-Pentium 4 1.3GHz
Athlon MP

Login
1 GB
Win Xp 32
DX 9
300 MB
- That's practically pretty much some low requirements, yet people could still get some rough lag around the FSC missions, just saying, those requirements do not show the reality of this game at all.

-On the date of April the 18th OOO released the Blast processing, which they said it would revolutionize the whole thing, no more lag, yet no more other things like that, for the moment, it was unlaggy indeed, the blast processing was working on its plan, after some time though, you could not notice anything at all, they just overweighted the whole game with their patches.

- OOO, if you're ever gonna make this game work as the PC requirements say, I'd just be marveling there.

-That's mostly what I can say about OOO, about Spiral Knights, those are just the shenigans they made. Mostly the biggest ones they made.

- And Nick, I think you made a great game and the dev team, and everything, but what I can really say is, the CE economy is broken, so is the laggy game itself.

- Enough said for me, ~ Daclub.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 12:49

Takendown

I agree that CE prices has gone off the rails recently, but then again I haven't been too bothered about CE prices since I play the game a lot less than I'm supposed to (been busy). I joined this game with Steam, also played in the Beta some time ago, and the prices were at 3.5kcr maximum. Of course, I was too much of a newbie to appreciate, and enjoy, the fact that CE prices were so darn low. But 9,000cr does seem to be a bit harsh on F2Pers.

While it is understood that CE is bought with real money, I have yet to realise why the prices are rising to such a height. I don't participate in the economy so I wouldn't know. I buy CE to use CE, with real money that is, and not to sell them on like others do (only if I have spares).

As for performance, I've experienced heaps amounts of lags too coupled with game crashes. It was only until today when I found out about optimizing Java for 64 Bit PC Users which resulted in me getting faster load times (significantly faster loading times) and less lag. Though, after doing so, I've crashed twice already which didn't happen very often when I didn't optimize my Java for this game. It's ridiculous. Java is known as a massive memory eater thus giving it more RAM to work with and I crash twice? Stupid. We may need another performance update, and soon!

- OOO, if you're ever gonna make this game work as the PC requirements say, I'd just be marveling there.
Again, +1

If the Energy Prices were to ever ascend past 10,000cr then I'm sure as hell done with Spiral Knights. There's only so much one can take.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 12:49

Skenderbeu

Who cares about ce? Why buy it when there is no new content to use it for? Besides I dont think it will be a surprise if ce gets over 10K Cr and even up to 16K Cr, you get 8kcr from 1 KoA and you can do it twice a day because you only need 50 CE to beat it :/. So that would mean 100 CE is worth 16K Cr because KoA is the most profitable mission and that's the one everyone uses to get the Cr they need.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 12:50

Canine-Vladmir

nuff said

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 12:58

Takendown

@Skenderbeu - Who cares about ce? Why buy it when there is no new content to use it for?

Everyone since Crystal Energy is required of everybody to progress in the game. What you're forgetting is that this game is becoming a more of a P2P/P2W game which is not good for OOO's company. People will get sick of the prices and the process of them progressing to better gear, or whatever else, is slowed down drastically.

Also, please call it FSC (Firestorm Citadel). Missions has clearly ruined the minds of people as well as FSC. KoA? Eeck! (Kidding, call it what you want. It was known as FSC way before the existance of Missions. Just so you know.)

@Canine-Vladmir - Who's that directed at? Skenderbeu, my post or the OP's?

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 13:06

Canine-Vladmir

OP's

i dont grind so 9k is pretty big. I might as well leave :,(

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 13:17

Kid-Wraith

CE Price

why are you blaming OOO for the in-game pricing of ce.
The in-game trade is controlled by players, its players who set a crown value on ce not OOO.
Rant at players to sell their CE cheaper

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 13:24

Xylka-Mkii

+ 1/2

eOk so yeah the CE price is fine because its a free market run by players where the demand will always be greater than the supply. Hence, being a free market, the price will reach an equilibrium with the demand (people willing and able to buy CE.

While its true EVERYONE needs it and its limited, while cr isnt, Mist energy keeps it fair. You dont HAVE to profit and grind the game to death, you only have to when you NEED the CE to upgrade to the next tier or use weapon slot unlocks (which by that point you should know how to hold a steady profit, and should be playing the game on a regular basis.)

The average amount of CR that comes in for all of the players willing and able to buy CE is at 8-9k as of now due to ways making it easier for more people to profit. More income affects the demand for CE going up,which in turn reduces the supply and causes it to be even more limited, and so the sellers try to profit as much as they can off what they can.

So as more and more players need more and more CE, and gain access to faster ways of producing more CR income, the price is just going to keep pushing to an equilibrium to which both sides are willing and able to buy/sell CE.

Mist energy is unlimited. Using an unlimited resource to farm an unlimited resource, which can then be exchanged for pretty much anything in the game, means that there will ALWAYS be a way to profit off of Mist alone to satisfy the individual CE needs of each player. It can take 50 energy, or 200 energy, but so long as Mist is available in the game, CE will always be purchaseable.

Yeah, if anyone still doesnt get that go take an Econ course, because there really isnt any reason to complain that CE is too high or that it is becoming unfair/unstable until it breaks the point where the people that need it (3*-5* [players) cannot make enough income off of Mist alone to get it.

Honestly Mist should be used sparingly. If you're saving up CE to get something, then farm FSC/KoA or any other boss. If you have enough, then just use Mist for something that entertains you. I've played only 1 FSC mission out of the past week, and played Danger missions instead, using all my Mist Energy to get thru them (revives and such.) After about 1 a day, I still managed to bring in 300CE alone just through patience and Mist only runs.

the CE market is NOT broken. Everything else in the game just caused CR inflation.

However I agree 100% with the lag. While PC requirements are a bit off at this point, and lag is mainly caused by connection issues, we do need more servers around the world, and if we want a more fair experience, the minimum system requirements should be changed, as Frame rate issues are also a problem.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 15:16

Skenderbeu

@ Takendown I should have

@ Takendown I should have written that differently :/. I should have said I don't care because there is nothing new for me to spend the CE I already have. Anyways I'm just in a kind of in a bad mood since there hasn't been anything new for me to accomplish in the game all summer. Now that school has started I play it even less, so I'm just desperate for something new to bring me back to one of my favourite games, or end up quitting. I'm still optimistic though because Shadow Lairs got put in the game around this time of year right? So I'll keep my hopes up, maybe they will realese more new content at around this time again :D.

As for the FSC/KoA matter, I know its been called FSC before missions, but since I saw OP saying KoA and I hadn't done the mission in a long time I assumed everyone's calling it KoA now :/.

I've been around for a while now, ever since the game came out on Steam but I just dont want to quit but with nothing to do whats the point? I'd just be sitting around on my butt accomplishing nothing in SK. I guess I could try and get my prestige super high but I see no point in that I only get a Trojan head by my name, and probably more beggars :/.

Anyways I hope this clears things up :D.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 15:23

Canine-Vladmir

think about this...

the Dev's, Mod's, and Game Masters ALL have a mortal avatar.
why cant they flush the market with CE?

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 15:29

#10

Heatsurge

CE prices are being kept low

CE prices are being kept low by new players.

As more and more people are hitting "endgame" (Vana/Prestige Missions/SL) and getting 5* equipment and increased payouts, they are willing to pay more for CE, and not willing to sell their CE for crowns which they can easily make with the payouts from high-tier missions.

As the inflow of new players diminishes, CE will continue rising. The increase of CE simply indicates that fewer and fewer new players are getting into the game (or are buying energy).

I don't think this game has nearly seen the end of CE price inflation. A more appropriate price of CE is around 22k for 100 in my opinion (the payout of 2 Vana runs).

I think f2p players should be grateful that an official market to trade CE for game-obtainable-currency even exists. Most other f2p games don't allow purchasing certain things without real money, period. You can buy almost anything in Spiral Knights with in-game-obtainable currency. That in my opinion is amazing.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 23:41

#11

Takendown

@Skenderbeu - Ah, I see. Apologies if I misread and misunderstood what you meant by what I had quoted. The problem is that us "oldtimers" have reached the "endgame" stage of this game. That means we own 1 or more 5* sets (I have three), have done every Shadow Lairs, every boss, soloed every boss (for personal achievement purposes) etc. I see what you mean; there's nothing really to do anymore but go on runs with Mist, or an Elevator Pass if present, and make crowns to stay rich. Buy more accessories to make your Knight look more pretty. That's it really.

I've thought about quitting at times too but many players said they'd like me to hang around. I might as well do so.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 23:48

#12

Wodanct

All I know is with the constant increase of CE prices, lack of decent new content, etc that I am going back to being "f2p" (I'm pay as you go but I'm refusing to give Three Rings any money now). All I plan to do is log on, spend my mist doing the 2 daily missions, troll in LD a bit, then log off. Using the crowns for doing the missions I'll be able to buy my monthly trinket slots and single weapon slot while I do nothing to contribute to the life of this server anymore until things change for the better.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 01:50

#13

Ark-The-Monsta

+9001

I think that if CE is gonna hit 10k even 11k sometime in the future it's gonna get to the point where most new players will instantly quit the game when they find out they have to grind RJP 6 times over 2 days or more just to get 100 CE. and with the T3 requirements, you need 1600 CE and 10,000 crowns to get there, plus all the mats which shouldn't be an issue given the endless grinding people will have to do. So if you do the math:

- You get about 2.3k from RJP on average (I guess), And let's say CE hits 10k
- That's about 5 RJP runs to get 100 CE, at the cost of 30 Mist per run.
- You can do 3 RJP runs on 100 mist, plus 1 depth given you don't use any energy with reviving, and new players aren't as skilled of course, so they're bound to use one or two revives here and there, who knows.
- So if you need 1600 CE and 10,000 crowns to get into T3, that's almost 100 RJP runs just to get into T3. (May be less if you buy sealed swords with the tokens and vendor them.)

So if you can do 3 runs a day with very little reviving, and with a party, you can expect to get into T3 in about a month, that's if you play every day and use up your mist in RJP only, AND with little to no reviving.

A lot of new players aren't very patient these days, and having to grind for a whole month just to get into T3 where you have to do even MOAR grinding is getting ridiculous.

And as for us 5* people, it will hurt us in the long run, especially if CE manages to go way up past 10k and into the 11k-12k range. That would be the point where if we don't have an elevator pass, FSC will barely provide 100 CE in 2 runs, but then what's the point if you use 100 mist or CE just to gain 100 CE? It just doesn't make any sense. No I haven't forgotten about the tokens but even with them it will be a constant grindfest with CE at 10k+. At 12k or higher, we could all say that the only would-be "profitable" run in the game is UFSC, but then again I'm not flushing 1800 CE down the toilet just to gain access to an area that pays out that much in crowns. Of course you get the material at the end, but if it comes down to people constantly grinding UFSC, the value of Maidens Tears will just drop. And that will result in UFSC being unprofitable even in a full party of people pitching in 450 CE, along with the entire game becoming a massive grindfest for everyone where the only way left to get ahead is to buy CE with real money.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, it's only a matter of time before someone releases some sort of server emulator for this game, and if that goes viral the official servers along with the official game being developed by OOO will die a swift sudden death. I hate to say it, but if it happened to other MMOs, it can and WILL happen to Spiral Knights.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 02:42

#14

Prevailer

dude there is no even hacks

dude there is no even hacks for spiral knights and u think someone gonna bother with reverse engineering the server? lul
private server will never happen

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 03:26

#15

Plarosel

Haiz, the people here sure have a bad habit of making tl;dr posts. Lemme summarize this in the name of laziness:

1. Unbalanced crown gains from FSC and other missions result a high ce price, which is killing our new and f2p players. To make it shorter: we need them.
Anyone saying "OOO ain't responsible for this matter", spend some time on basic economics. Yes, they do.

2. The game application performance is terrible.

3. Nick said there would be item balance and/or new features. We're still waiting (not sure about that, rara).
P.S. the new maps are not "something new". U find that kind of additional contents everyday in other game communities, especially games that support mods.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 03:41

#16

Daclub

@OOO Being responsible of the CE Price

I wasn't blaming OOO at all when I was talking about the CE price, I'm just saying that Nick does not know how to keep those people who keep making the CE price huge.

OOO - Is a company which is responsible for this game after all, so they are responsible of the players as well if you did not know, thus why there are Game Masters, people.

So why can't this company reduce everything to normal? After all, they own the game, so is SEGA.

@Skenderbeu You should know that not everyone can buy CE packs, I think most of the people came here just to have fun without using any premium privilege, and I'm pretty sure that you're kind of obligued to buy CE Packs/ Elevator passes.

Now I'm not blaming the lack of Inspiration OOO has, because that's not something I should mess around with, after all, this is their idea.
But the economy is just broken now adays, and this should never like that for a F2P game.
So ironic people could still play in those conditions.

~Daclub

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 04:33

#17

Sgt-Brownie

+1 for OP

The problem with the CE Price lies at the very Core: The Missions.

The Missions' Objective

Before the missions, new players were stumbled into a lot of stuff very quickly, before even reaching Haven. I remember going through the chasm full proto without buying anything or going through the Tutorial n°2 because I thought that tutorial elevator was actually the way to continue. And then I arrived into Haven and I was plunged into even more stuff.

This is what the missions were for: to guide the new players and teaching them all the basics of Spiral Knights. But then, OOO had to go overboard...

The Missions' Problem

You surely remember the time where you had to go through a couple of depths before reaching Snarbolax, Jelly King, Roarmulus Twins or Vanaduke, right? Well, OOO screwed it all up. We could've had clockwork missions actually beginning in the clockwork safe rooms, and then go through a couple of depths before actually reaching the objective of the mission at hand... No. Instead we get straight into the objectives.

Then between missions we get these Plot Walls that are called Hall Of Heroes. A Hall where the best of the Spiral Order are there to show the player which weapons and armor are available, with a Lieutenant at the end of the Hall, here to see if you got the right equipment. And again, OOO went overboard. Instead of just showing us what is available at this point and make us look for the recipes, they sell most recipes in the Hall. I won't lie, it does help, but there's a very big consequence to that... and which brings us to...

The Missions' Aftermath

So what happened with this overboardness OOO did? Oh, a lot, and none are positive.

1) Getting instantly into high-crown paying places, such as FSC or RJP, eliminates the need to go through the Clockworks to get to these places, not to forget that you can reach any special place of the Clockworks you want (Ex: Dark City) just as instantly:

- Arcade is obsolete;
- CE Prices rise;
- Game becomes less cooperative;
- Crown Payouts for high-crown paying places are nerfed;

2) Getting instant access to almost all recipes also eliminates the need to go through the Clockworks to get said HoH recipes and/or the need to look up said HoH recipes in the Auction House:

- Arcade is obsolete;
- Finding and/or selling HoH recipes is worthless;
- Prices of non-HoH recipes rise;

3) With Prestige Missions, you're basically doing a half-run of the Clockworks in order to get Prestige that regular Clockworks runs cannot give:

- Arcade is obsolete;
- Game becomes less cooperative;

What must be done in order to restore the CE Prices

So now you've seen it all. The objective, the problems and the consequences. These next steps is what I believe will lower the CE Prices:

1) Make all Clockworks missions start at the Clockworks Subtowns or at the Party Lobby if missions are T1. Make T1 missions make you start directly at the objective depth, T2 missions one depth before the objective and T3 missions two depths before the objective. Make "Shadow of the Beast", "The Sovereign Slime", "Built to Destroy!" and "The King of Ashes" start at their representative Tier Subtown (Party Lobby for T1, Moorcroft Manor for T2, Emberlight for T3) and make you go all the way down to the objective depths, like in the Arcade;
2) Make the Arcade give you Prestige points depending on how far you go down and how far up you started in the Clockworks;
3) Re-buff the Boss Depths' Crown Payout back to the way they were and make all similar Clockworks Depths give the same payout;
4) Take away all recipes from the HoH; make the Heroes show the current * weapons via preview instead;

These steps are supposed to bring back the Arcade into the main plan once again -what Spiral Knights has always been about- while keeping the Missions in the game.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 07:36

#18

Aumir

I still think Missions should ask you Minerals to get to the thematic depth of the mission (red+purple in fiend missions, etc) so Arcade and Missions retro-feed each other.

(Taking out mineral deposits in Missions would make it work even better)

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 08:13

#19

Paweu

You might not realise this

You might not realise this but the minimum requirements are requirements that allow you to just launch the game. That said, before I've upgraded my CPU it was an old AMD LE-1600 (it's clocked at 2.2ghz) which is basically bottom of the bottom among the office-tier CPUs and on it I could play the whole game really well (60 fps on my radeon HD 4650) on high graphic settings aside of FSC, IMF and some "fog" intense levels. The game perfomance isn't as bad as you make it out to be, there are just problems with those specific areas but then again, what game runs at the same performance in every moment of the game the same? Such games do not exist.

And blast processing wasn't supposed to make a powerhouse out of your out-of-date PC, it just solved the problem of the game running badly when there was no apparent reasons for the game to run like that.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 09:39

#20

Sgt-Brownie

@Aumir

That would very nice and it'd make players learn how to manipulate the clockworks to their advantage.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 10:19

#21

Ark-The-Monsta

@ Prevailer Even if it

@ Prevailer Even if it doesn't happen I never said it was guaranteed to happen, I just said it can will happen if someone has Java programming experience, the incentive, and the time on their hands to do it. Don't be so cocky about it because you never know. Like I said, server reverse engineering has happened before to other MMOs because of similar problems like what we're dealing with now. So just because there isn't any hacks or server emulators for SK now, doesn't mean one can't be made.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 10:18

#22

Sypsy

"I should just remind you that this is a F2P game"

How does CE prices impact a free player's ability to continue playing without paying?
(Slower progress yes, but it doesn't stop them from playing.)

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 11:51

#23

Mr-Baldy

So, I decided to replay the game from the beginning.

Knight Name: Mr-Baldy
Got to 1star almost instantly thanks to missions.
Got to 2star just as fast, I can buy a full set of 2star stuff for less than 5K thanks to AH and the missions gave me the base set already.
3star took a bit of time but after grinding Jelly King (and relying on Balderus to give me a few nice 3star things.) I managed to get to 3star in a decent amount of time.
4star was taking horribly long so I decided to cheat and using the CE earned from commissions to craft my stuff. (Also using crowns on Balderus to buy me nice accessories because I splurge.
I currently only have one 5star item and things are going a bit faster now that I'm T3 but the gap between T2 and T3 is incredibly huge whereas you're barely in T1 long enough to know how to fight. This means that noobs are progressing into T2 faster than they should and are taking forever to get into T3, by which time, they'll probably have given up. With the CE at its current price, you need to do grind the most profitable things (Which are T3) if you ever want to get 5star stuff.

The CE prices rising impact those who aren't T3 the most so... I... I had a reason behind all this but I just forgot what it was.
Drink more Soda.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 07:39

#24

Yvanblo

@Bladderrust

Your reason for saying all that is this: To get past T2 you HAVE TO GRIND!

Hey Nick, Eury, or anyone else in power: Would it be possible for you to post the percentage of players who are in each tier? I would assume that 65% of all active players are in tier 2, 30% are in T1, and 5% are in T3 (just a guess. This is accounting for alts... so my T1 number might be way low).

If that was true, then 90% of all players would have no other choice but to grind to get an enormous number of crowns to trade for CE.

I myself have been grinding for a while... I have a lot of crowns, and could easily buy a bunch of 5 star recipes and start heating my gear... but that brings me right back to the main point of this: I HAVE TO GRIND SOME MORE. The trouble is, normal clockworks runs just don't give enough heat, and so I'm forced to do missions that are before T3, and pay well... that's right, no FSC, I'm stuck with ROF, RJP, IMF. FSC is for T3, or for those who feel like spending an entire days mist getting to FSC in the arcade. I don't have time to do so, and have only been in FSC 2 times ever. I'm full 4 star, and my next mission is to spend 3200 CE to get 5 star gear. Need I say more?

Actually, I'm patient with this game, and I'll get there, but it's frustrating to be stuck here so soon after getting my 4 star gear. I essentially completed a single 4 star set and then I was told that I had to spend twice the CE and crowns to get a new set. If I didn't have 400+ hours into this game, I would be very angry and probably quit. But, it's a fun game, and I hope CE prices come down a little.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 07:56

#25

Derpules

@Yvanblo

Join a guild? It should be easy to get others to take you on FSC runs.

Maybe not the ideal solution, but it is there.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 18:05

#26

Oroseira

Dream is collapsing.

Inception joke aside...

This game is dying. The core reason is missions, and the horrible, horrible crown nerf patch.
Just makes me want to purchase a firearm IRL and shoot myself in the head with it. I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 18:10

#27

Softhead

What happened to that pic, Cobalt?

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 18:12

#28

Oroseira

Oh yes, that antigua to the face one...

Obsolete. I'll draw a better suicide when I feel like it.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 23:14

#29

Fehzor

Again, the power to change these things is not outside your hands- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/63936

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 03:15

#30

Wodanct

http://www.youtube.com/watch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUMxpYLJQiM

I enjoy the part that says no grinding.

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 10:00

#31

Sgt-Brownie

And 'twas back in the good ol' Beta days...

Oh wait, Beta had even worse CE Prices than now.

*sigh*

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 11:36

#32

Bopp

-1

they nerfed the KoA mission to 8k cr, that wasn't a problem either, because you still could get 100 ce per 1 KoA mission...On 5th of the September we've encountered the 9k cr problem, this is completely unacceptable OOO, people can't even stay on the floating line...

So if KoA yields 8,000 crowns payout, and costs 50 energy, then isn't the break-even point 16,000 crowns per 100 CE? I mean, by doing KoA twice, don't you profit 7,000 crowns?

I'm not saying that Spiral Knights is perfect, or that the mission system didn't seriously alter the game. But we should be honest with our numbers here. Tell me where I'm wrong.

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About the CE price, OOO, and other of OOO's Sheningans