Spiral Knights - The intended use of the new shard bombs

The intended use of the new shard bombs

22 replies [Last post]

Mon, 09/17/2012 - 17:27

Fehzor

Now, I know a lot of you hate the new shard bombs, but has anyone found any good uses for them? That is to say, is there any use for them that outclasses another weapon? So far, I've found that by running away and spamming them, you can hit groups of mobs at a distance without the negative knockback caused by nitronome... I was also using merc demo helm and merc mail, so that I could go fast enough. Even then however, ash of agni seemed to perform better. Another potential use was in spamming them, but that was inefficient compared to electron vortex and nitronome, which were slightly more dangerous at first but soon became safer. I'm sure you've all seen my suggestions for fixing them, where I give my thoughts on what I tried shortly after the new bombs came out.- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/63067

I guess what I'm asking is- Have you found any good uses for the shard bombs that are not better performed better by another weapon? Any patterns of attack that make it better than its competing bombs?

Mon, 09/17/2012 - 17:35

Grittle

I found out that you can kill

I found out that you can kill a horde of FSC Slags with a 3* elemental shard bomb in 50 seconds

So the elemental shards HAS a use in FSC!!!
YES, I FEEL IMPORTANT
SELF ESTEEM INCREASED 5%!!!!

Mon, 09/17/2012 - 17:57

Demonicsothe

I was gone for a fairly long

I was gone for a fairly long time, before the shards were changed. I feel I can give a sort of impassionate response.

I feel that most of the complaints and "uselessness" of the new shards is simply because the old shards were so much stronger. Single target nuke, long range snipe, and a decent aoe weapon. If we were simply using this the new shard's clusterbomb style without knowing the old shards, we would only complain about the stun effect and enemies not being hit by the secondary explosion because they walked out of the range. That, and the bugs that prevent the shards from even appearing to explode in times.

If we never knew how the old shards worked, this would have been the ultimate multi target bomb. Run into a mass group of enemies, and repeatedly drop the shards in order to lay a sort of minefield, capable of covering a large area in delayed explosions. The damage wouldn't matter, simply because we never had a better choice before.

That being said. It sucks.

/cry

Mon, 09/17/2012 - 19:02

Tenkii

Not much of a bomber but...

Doesn't it still pale in comparison to Nitrome, in terms of killing speed?

Mon, 09/17/2012 - 19:46

Fehzor

@Grittle-
What'd you do to kill the slags specifically? How many shards did you have to make hit, and how did you do it?

@Demonicsothe-
I'm not talking at all about the old bombs; I'm talking about the new ones being weak in comparison to the existing options, and I'm wondering where you would want to use it over another type of bomb, or what attacking pattern you would use in order to make it really work. If we never knew how the old shard bombs worked, we'd probably still complain that it doesn't measure up to the existing bombs. I'm glad that they aren't falling for power creep, but we need a reason to use these.

@Seiran
Or so it seems. Or perahaps I'm just using it wrong somehow?

Mon, 09/17/2012 - 19:51

Little-Juances

Even if you're scared of knockback, AoA/VT/DBB can suit your needs.

Mon, 09/17/2012 - 20:37

Oatmonster

Lick

@Grittle, 50 seconds is a long time, even for a 3* weapon.

The bombs would be good near walls if it werent for two things. OOO being derpy and making them dissapear near walls, and OOO being derpy and hard-coding a 3 shard hit limit, after which monsters can't get hit by more shards.

Mon, 09/17/2012 - 21:14

Fehzor

Walls are a good point, I have noticed that they tend to work well (better) in those things with lots of blocks and monsters interspersed, but then so do guns/swords/other bombs.

Mon, 09/17/2012 - 21:59

Zeddy

Ever since they came out, I've been forcing myself to use shard bombs as much as possible in order to answer this exact question. I've found a few things:

-The shards have higher interruption and knockback than any other bomb. Unfortunately, the blast does not. This means that, unlike DBB, the shards on SSS is capable of knocking down wolvers in shadow lairs and danger rooms. The shards on DDMB can presumably do something similar with gremlins in danger rooms, as well. Unfortunately, they're still pretty rubbish against gremlins at this point because they're impossible to combo right when the core is too weak to knock them down as well. DCB is capable of knocking down Mecha Knights occasionally, depending on the depth and if you hit with one or two shards.

-Assuming the shards don't disappear, they are pretty brutal in chokepoints. Sometimes they don't disappear.

-Shard bombs do absolutely no knockback on lumbers, meaning you can kill lumbers at least as fast and efficiently with a DCB as if you had been using DR.

-SSS is pretty good on Devilites. Like you said in the OP, Fehzor, the enormous fuse time means you can plant this a good distance away from the enemy and herd them into the explosion. The stun makes it easier to run up and follow this up after the fact.

-These bombs are great for starting a fight against enemies behind blocks that take one hit. The initial blast will destroy the block, then put shards past them. With other bombs you'd have to put two bombs before you could start damaging. I find this handy in devilite levels where such blocks are frequent. Place the bomb, scurry away and swoop in from behind cover with a charged bomb once the devilites get interrupted and perhaps even stunned.

-In a party, they're sometimes preferable over nitronome due to the knockback being smaller.

-Salt Bombs are damage bombs that inflict shock. What's not to like?

-Shard bombs combo better with other party members using support bombs. I've had the pleasure of running with a fellow bomber, lately, and we've been trying out a lot of different bomb combos. Here's my findings so far:

--Voltaic Tempest + Deadly Crystal Bomb: VT will severely negate the erratic knockback of DCB. The swordsman on our team could fight uninterrupted

--Voltatc Tempest + Stagger Storm: The enemy is as good as completely immobilized. Our swordsman had a lot of fun killing everything while we were just kind of not doing anything. It took longer, but was very safe.

--Deadly Crystal Bomb + Deadly Crystal Bomb: The bombs were chaining well with eachother, and the small knockback meant the bombs were never completely missing. Our swordsman feared for his life, so he huddled up in a corner and ineffectually used blitz needle from a distance.

--Electron Vortex + Deadly Crystal Bomb: All the complications of using DCB was eliminated! Who cares about the delayed fuse when all the enemies are clumped up in the same area anyway? Shard bombs benefit more from EV than any other bomb does (apart from, you know, the old RSS), because other damage bombs only do damage once and over a large area, so they're easier to hit with and do not need enemies to be in very specific spots. Unfortunately, the swordsman in our group would often kill the whole clump before my second, or even first shards went off.

--Voltaic Tempest + Stagger Storm: Horrible substitute for Shivermist against Vanaduke. Do not do this.

If they'd just fix disappearing shards, remove the 3-hit limit and up the damage so that all these tactics would actually be worth it, they'd be a good set of bombs.

Tue, 09/18/2012 - 10:26

Nordlead

I use CTR Max on the 5*

I use CTR Max on the 5* Crystal Bomb and think it is great for large groups of monsters in small areas (granted, even FSC D25 works great too). I haven't tried the pierce or shadow versions because I feel that DBB and DR and better in each of their damage categories.

My favorite spot to drop the bomb is when you hang a left on the second level of Ghosts in the Machine. So the area where there are a ton of zombies, scuttlebots, and retrodes all in a tiny area. I drop a Ash of Agni, then follow it up by spamming crystal bombs and the entire group is done in a few seconds. The reason it is so effective is that you are double hitting everyone and they are kept in place by the walls. The hard part is avoiding being killed when dropping the bombs as fast as possible.

Really for me, if I see a large group, I spam these in an overlapping pattern so mobs get knocked back and forth between a constant stream of secondary explosions.

Tue, 09/18/2012 - 12:31

#10

Fehzor

@Zeddy

My main issue with using multiple shard bombs is the chaotic knockback caused by constant small explosions- it isn't very much, but it makes it rather hard to weave in and out. I would agree that at times they are preferable to nitronome due to being slightly safer as well... although the low damage is still the largest concern for me. Some of your points are somewhat moot, like them taking down lumbers faster than the dark retribution- dark retribution is a shadow weapon; they should be waaay ahead of it at taking down things like lumbers. Also, Shard bomb+Electron vortex is kind of a strange way of doing things, as the electron vortex could have been followed up by a brandish charge or something of that sort. You're definitely right though in many regards- "If they'd just fix disappearing shards, remove the 3-hit limit and up the damage so that all these tactics would actually be worth it, they'd be a good set of bombs.", although I did think of other options for them in case the purpose of the bombs is different, as I mentioned in my guide to fixing them.

@Nordlead

I find that situation better resolved by using electron vortex+charges, although you are correct in that it definitely works there.

Tue, 09/18/2012 - 14:06

#11

Zeddy

@Fehzor

I agree with everything you said. I've been trying to find some kind of merit in these bombs for over a month, and that's the best I've got. It's all very overshadowed by its crummy damage.

I have a million suggestions on how to improve these bombs, one of them being giving each of them a status so they've be the bomb version of brandishes. (Haze bombs are not the bomb version of brandishes or alchemers, since they do nothing but inflict weak status while brandishes and alchemers have amazing killing power in their own right and in addition inflict moderate status.)

Tue, 09/18/2012 - 16:21

#12

Oatmonster

Lick

@Zeddy, Brandishes are the only Brandish like weapons. They are the largest line with a common base that split into different damage types. Not to mention three of those lines have status. This lets brandish users rage craft brandishes and craft into whichever line a damage bonus fits better into, while gunners (alchemers) and bombers (shard bombs) are left to try and get specific UVs on specific weapons. OOO totally isn't playing favorites ¬.¬

OOO just doesn't want any bombs to have good single target DPS. They super-nerfed the DR, and then they uber-nerfed the RSS (and then screwed over the people that used them while letting others profit). To restrict single target DPS, they hard code a buggy hit limit (3, even though this sometimes causes monsters to become completely invincible to shards) into the shard bombs, and make shards randomly disappear (if you stand in the same spot and plant bombs, sometimes they disappear, sometimes they don't). I'm really starting to doubt that the disappearing shards is a bug. Heck, even a Gremlin Demo's bombs don't disappear near walls.

Tue, 09/18/2012 - 16:45

#13

Serell

"@Zeddy, Brandishes are the

"@Zeddy, Brandishes are the only Brandish like weapons. They are the largest line with a common base that split into different damage types. Not to mention three of those lines have status. This lets brandish users rage craft brandishes and craft into whichever line a damage bonus fits better into, while gunners (alchemers) and bombers (shard bombs) are left to try and get specific UVs on specific weapons. OOO totally isn't playing favorites" ¬.¬

Wow... I never noticed that.... if you want an Acheron with a damage bonus vs. slime very high, you ragecraft a lot of brandishes, but end up with a damage bonus undead very high, you can sell it for massive profit because it can be upgraded to its elemental version. While if you want a umbra driver with slime very high and end up getting undead very high, it's just a waste...

Wow, just another piece of evidence that shows they don't like gunners and bombers.

Tue, 09/18/2012 - 18:44

#14

Darkbrady

I've only been back for a few

I've only been back for a few days now, but have been asking myself the same question, since I quickly noticed that my FSC godmode weapon was stolen from under me. In my opinion...

Sheer effectiveness, the shards seem to vastly underperform compared to even just whipping out a sword. In graveyards I can kill hordes of zombies faster with my Glacius in my Mad Bomber, than I can with DCB. I've not found any situation where any of the shards seem...well, worth it, in terms of effectiveness. Although, ISB seems to have benefited from the change; that works pretty damn nicely in jelly rooms or JK.

That said, there are benefits to them. For one, the fuses on them work nicely with low charge times, allowing utter spam of them so you can absolutely flood a small room with countless shards over and over, so that no matter where an enemy moves to, they will get hit (and interrupted/KBd); this is especially useful for devils, I find, as speed killing them generally results in a lot of personal damage.

They are a "safe" bomb to use, I find. You can run around a room dropping shards everywhere and kill the group while being basically danger free, you don't need to worry about every really getting hit and even placement tends to matter a lot less than, say, Nitro, as the shards spread themselves out and charge times are short. You may not be able to kill fast or effectively with them, but if you're patient and would rather kill safely, they're a lot more ideal than using some of the riskier bomb combos

Just up to you to decide whether that's "worth it" or not.

Tue, 09/18/2012 - 20:53

#15

Fehzor

Darkbrady is back! <3

A few things for thought-

Many players claim that the bombs are dangerous due to the unpredictable and frequent knockback, can anyone relate to this, as most of us see these as being "safe" bombs?

Has anyone found an instance where the dark matter bomb is better than the shocking salt bomb? Where the deadly splinter bomb is better than the Scintilating Sun Shards?

Tue, 09/18/2012 - 23:07

#16

Zeddy

@Fehzor

I have a theory regarding DSB vs SSS and DDMB vs SSB, but I only have SSS, DCB and SSB for now so I can't test until the theoretical next time I have test server access.

The theory goes, in particular for DDMB, that the core will be able to knock over a gremlin whereas an SSB will not. However, I fear I'm giving OOO too much credit with this theory.

I have tested regular shard bombs on the test server. The knockback is no better than the neutral knockback of any of the other bombs and as such the bomb is utterly worthless.

Tue, 09/18/2012 - 23:41

#17

Eeks

safe

Fehzor

Both sides are right but the context is different. If you use shard bombs like you would a regular damage bomb, they don't offer a lot of protection. When bombing zombies, for example, you'll often find that some bombs will push them away and some will pull them close to you. If y ou watch my clear videos you'll see that pulling zombies in happens pretty often. Of course, I don't always get hit because I can react but just the potential of getting hit is there, on every single explosion.

The knockback is big enough to be annoying but small enough where you still have to react to the battlefield as if there were no knockback (i.e. dodging like normal). The low damage throughput due to bad balancing, bugs, etc. means that battles go on for longer compared to other weapons. I think this is something that you have to consider when assessing how "safe" these bombs are. You have to dodge attacks for an additional 3-4 bomb cycles so as long as you're in the thick of things it is less "safe" IMO.

Of course the delayed double fuse allows you to do things with these bombs that you can't with others (DR being the exception), which is kite enemies into your explosion assuming you have enough room to do so. This is slow but 100% safe as you're never in any danger since you're always running away from anything that can hit you. I managed to clear LoA with just dropping shard bombs and running away. The enemies eventually lost the battle due to attrition.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 01:36

#18

Darkbrady

Hi again, Fehz :) Well I call

Hi again, Fehz :)

Well I call them safe because, as a bomber, I find myself spending most of my time constantly on the move anyways, so small KBs from that really don't create much of a danger. Once you get the hang of using Nitro safely in a party, the KB from the shards is completely negligible It is a bit more unpredictable, but as long as you can safely weave your way through a room, there should really be no trouble. Small circles around a central area lets the enemies get bounced around in the same area while chasing you, and allowing the shards to just stack up and hit them over and over and over; it may indeed take an extra couple of cycles of bombs, but I find there's virtually no danger during that extra time, esp when the bombs have shock/stun.

They do work at their job, it's just their damage that's...frankly, pitiful. Although, as Demo said, that may just be because many of us are used to the old RSS which was basically just a grenade to onehit....things.

And aye, LoA wasn't bad at all with a wee DCB there. Most of the mobs just respawn over and over anyways, so it's not too hard to just run aroud in circles dropping bombs left, right and centre and nothing can take two steps without a 'splosion in the face :D

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 03:40

#19

Aureate

Processing Thoughts of You Always

@Grittle: That video was a 5* bomb at level 3 heat, not a 3* bomb.
I saw it too. >.>; The video wasn't all that impressive.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 04:31

#20

Weegeeftws

Y u no sell me your Cheese!?!?!?!

I took out 3 Duskers with the 3* Dark Matter bomb. Is that a use?!?
In all honesty I don't think they knew what they were doing though...

~The Mighty Cheese Knight; WeeGee

Thu, 09/20/2012 - 13:42

#21

Fehzor

I have done the thing where I run away from them as I place them, but as I said in the OP, haze bombs seemed more efficient at dealing damage, presuming that the enemies in question are not immune to shock and fire from haze bombs. In LoA my problem with spamming shard bombs was that if I had to double back for a second or two, there was a chance that I'd be caught in the knockback from the bomb, and that a slag or so would come flying out at me, whereas with ash of agni/voltaic tempest the enemies would just be passively doing their thing, and I was able to dodge them without as much effort.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 11:03

#22

Theozai

if they do a quick little update on them...

I wouldn't mind these new shards if they were proximity detonation, then you would be able to make a mine field, and enemies wouldn't be able to dodge them. you could simply kite around as your party lures them into your mines for extra dmg + status effects if they have any. it'd be a support bomb, and not strong enough to want to solo with them but in a group it'd at least be very useful in arena and other settings with large mobs.

they would need a cap and timer still, but if they extend the timer to 20 seconds and have them proxi detonate, that would cap them at maybe 16-24 mines at a time I believe.

anyway, just an idea, that they will likely never read.

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The intended use of the new shard bombs