Practical Differences of "Weak" Weapons
Vie, 11/09/2012 - 11:47
Just wanted to start a wee discussion here on weapons that are looked down upon as weak, and consider what the actual, practical differences are in these circumstances.
For example, the difference between Glacius and FoV is roughly 40 damage per swing (depending on your sword damage). This amounts to around 15% damage difference. (Also, to throw another number into the mix, fire ticks for 80~100+ damage every Does it really matter?
In a solo run, it takes roughly 4 hits for a Glacius to kill something. It also takes FoV 4 hits to kill them. Ofc, Glacius does swing that bit faster. Although, FoV is fairly likely to drop a fire, and if there's any time between attacks (let's say it got KBd or you got distracted) then those fire ticks will amount to far more than a single swings worth of damage.
FoV is world-renown for coming off as a weak weapon, but in practice it actually does very little difference. To give an example, even in a 4 man party, the difference in damage from swings amounts to about 1 free hit for the Glacius in every nine attacks. That free hit would matter if you had to attack twenty or thirty times, but since even a FoV can kill most strat6 enemies in under a dozen hits, all it's ultimately doing is saving you one swing. Which the FoV is certain to make up for in fire tick damage by that time.
Now, slower swings yes, but that matters a lot less in a practical world than it does on paper. You can rattle on M1 and count how many combos/attacks you can get in a minute, but when you're running around in the CW, you spent a lot of time not attacking, either by running, shielding, bumping, switching weapons, so that slight increase in speed only matters a portion of the time, ultimately diluting the otherwise impressive effects. Not at all to say that the faster swings aren't worth it, or aren't good, just that they're not quite so extreme in a practical environment.
Also, in LD, using a weapon with different timing can mess with peoples heads. Everyone's used to teethpicks, sealeds and brandishes and has a rhythm in their head. Introduce a FoV with a different combo speed to the equation and it screws up their timing. Even though it actually hits slower, just throwing a wrench in their works is enough to cause problems. Personally, I actually find it easier to land hits with FoV than I do with Glacius.
And then they burn...
I was using FoV and Glacius as examples here just to get the point across and hopefully stir some discussion on the matter; get some cohesive testing done or look at other weapons. I'm well aware that some weapons are more UP than others, but the nature of this thread isn't about finding out which is better/stronger/faster and which racks up the nicest tables in controlled testing, but whether or not it actually makes any real difference (and if it does, by how much).
Are there any weapons you do(n't) use because they're UP and have tested? Do you find unpopular weapons to work as effectively as widely used ones, or do you find certain weapons completely unplayable?
Vie, 11/09/2012 - 12:59
#2
Well when I saw CW I do just
Well when I saw CW I do just mean "PvE" in general; I'm including FSC, DMs etc.
Now, your points are valid, but besides my point. Sure, the Glaci swings faster and hits harder, but my question is "how much does that actually matter?". Once you're rolling max:max on the swords, the only thing to consider is how fast you actually kill with it. When enemies die in the same number of hits and require no extra attention of precautions, it doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things, I feel. I take my FoV to FSC and even without the fire, find that I kill at a pace little different from my Glaci. In fact, the most noticeable difference is the charge, both of which are incredibly useful in their own ways. I've taken to just bringing both for the charge options.
But I know what you mean; even with max:max, the Glaci still essentially comes out with an extra couple of points of ASI and DMG, but in said practical environment, nothing is surviving long enough for it to really make a difference. Put both against Vana and I'm sure the Glaci would humiliate the FoV in ways it didn't ken possible, but against normal mobs...well, there's a redundancy factor, I feel.
SSS? I feel the new shards are some of the most uselessly UP weapons in the game, sadly. As much as I've been trying to justify upgrading my RSS to 5*, I can only feel like I wasted my money. I've been trying various combinations in LD and CW and cannae come up with anything too useful. The best I can think of is switching between haze and SSS for perpetual stun and damage, or Nitro and RSS (in LD) to maintain a perimeter around a CP, but it's still disgustingly easy to circumvent, compared to...spamming VT.
I don't have a Bio myself actually, so never been able to try with any degree of certainty or knowledge. I see it used in LD from time to time but it seems more of a weapon that just gets spammed into a crowd and hopes to hit someone who never saw it, rather than a weapon used primarily to kill.
Vie, 11/09/2012 - 13:20
#3
So, to answer your point of
So, to answer your point of how much does a DMG Med and ASI Med matters :
- recently coming back, I was too greedy to take trinket slots. In FSC, one used to be sword DMG. I clearly felt hit as most mobs took one more hit to kill with DA. You'd have to compare combuser vs FoV and see where you need one more hit, but I wouldn't so easily dismiss it.
- my point is that ASI matters. Well, if you actually swing your sword and don't only charge. Same story, being greedy, I used a Combuster without any ASI in FSC. That got me hit several time as the combo wasn't fast enough to interrupt zombies before they finish their attack.
Yes the charge is good, and is actually the main selling point of FoV, and also the reason it doesn't appear in my list of UP weapons I don't use anymore. I just use it very very very little, since Blitz have a charge that have the same effect (OHKO most things) without the fire drawback, and can be used from range.
Seems like we agree on other weapons I listed.
Vie, 11/09/2012 - 13:27
#4
reasonable
The thesis of the thread is reasonable. It reminds me of some of your other threads, where you've argued that normal and non-normal weapons may not practically differ, it they require the same number of hits to kill.
It's cleaner to compare FoV to Combuster than to Glacius. On regular attacks, I agree that fire often makes up for weak raw damage. FoV's charge is stronger, but I usually use Combuster, because its charge is also quite powerful and I'm often not wearing a whole lot of fire protection. It's just much easier and safer to use.
I strongly agree with Fradow about sword speed helping your split-second timing in interrupting, shielding, killing, dodging, etc. And 15% damage increase may not improve your kills per second at all, or it might increase them dramatically (if you can kill in one fewer hit).
Weapons like Biohazard make the game fun by fundamentally altering your playstyle. But I have never used Biohazard effectively.
Vie, 11/09/2012 - 13:49
#5
Oh, was using Glacius over
Oh, was using Glacius over Combuster purely because I don't have one. Since Combuster doesn't burn on the regular and (afaik) all brandishes have the same damage anyways, I figured it'd work out.
Also, something I forgot to mention, is that against weak enemies (let's say you have your elemental weapons and a dirty Wolver pops up; FSC, for example), then I'd rather the FoV over Glaci because the fire ticks aren't reduced, due to being normal damage. When damage is cut down per swing, that fire tick counts for even more.
@Fradow: I think it's different to compare two weapons with no ASI than it is to compare both with vh~max ASI. My max FoV is pretty easy to cause interruptions with, even with being slower than Glaci. Don't get me wrong, Glaci is easier, but again...does that really matter anymore? I fully expect that at low bonuses it to be different, which is actually something I never considered when writing this. I wonder if there are any weapons that outperform their counterparts when at lower bonuses, rather than higher bonuses.
@Bopp: Aye, I fondly remember a mahoosive discussion on DA and Suda. I still use my Suda, inc. in LD, just for dat charge~
But aye, am just playing about with other builds and loadouts while I'm experimenting with swords, and wondering about whether or not it actually matters. I know there's plenty of discussions on stats, but I feel that a lot of people may be getting the wrong impression (esp. thanks to that "FoV - Useless and Weak" thread in Suggestions) that UP weapons are completely unplayable and not worth the time of day. I'm just positing that maybe these UP weapons are still worth using without worrying about ruining the game or slowing your party. Although, again I accept that some weapons will invariably do this anyways, but not all.
Y'know, this thread was borne of my new Hallow-decked Vog set and my wanting to only use FoV w/ it because it just looks so much cooler. Especially in LD. And wondered if I could just get away with using FoV everywhere. Turns out, I can~
:)
Vie, 11/09/2012 - 14:13
#6
agree
I agree that people should be trying these weapons and enjoying them. In particular, it bothers me when someone is berated or kicked from a party because they are using some funky weapon. I always say: Let's assume that they're going to use it well. Let's not worry about a theoretical problem until it becomes an actual problem.
For most play in this game, an expert player can get by with almost anything. I know I can fight fiends with a Divine Avenger or Combuster, because I used to do just that. But I also know how much easier fiends became when I started using piercing swords. And I know that Heart of Ice was no cakewalk when I first tried it. In fact, it's still hard, if I have to revive a lot of weak teammates. So for me, here's a practical difference between an elemental sword and a piercing sword:
* If my party is weak, then the piercing sword helps me carry the party through Heart of Ice. If I were using an elemental sword, I'd have to leave people unrevived longer. I might even have to revive myself with energy.
* If my party is solid, then the piercing sword helps me complete Heart of Ice more quickly than the elemental sword would.
Vie, 11/09/2012 - 17:20
#7
I agree that people should be
I agree that people should be trying these weapons and enjoying them.
That's a key element of this, really. I don't like the thought that many people abandon weapons they enjoy because they don't keep up w/ the OP weapons. Especially if it so happens that, underpowered as they may be, they still do more or less the same thing when used in game. The fun thing for SK for me is that there specifically isn't armour for each level then when you're maxed that's it; I enjoy being able to switch through so many different things and still have options.
Let's not worry about a theoretical problem until it becomes an actual problem.
/me approves of that line.
I'm having trouble w/ HoI myself; I'm too new to full swording in places and there's just so many things flyin' at you from all directions, so even gunners and bombers don't get it too easy. In certain areas it's tempting to just use what I know will work, but it's also tempting for me to just try stuff out and see if it does work!
Vie, 11/09/2012 - 20:45
#8
hm
Are there any weapons you do(n't) use because they're UP and have tested? Do you find unpopular weapons to work as effectively as widely used ones, or do you find certain weapons completely unplayable?
Troikas
Since I heard of the stun fix, I've been doing vana runs (with party members) with no blitz, mainly using Sudaruska (and/or Triglav), Electron Vortex, Hail driver, and some other non-blitz weapon of choice.
Troika line of course is underpowered compared to DA, but it feels good doing Vortex --> Slash --> Timed (!) charge so the charge lands as soon as the vortex explodes (it lets the bomb explosion hit alongside the 1st hit of the charge and if it shocks, it keeps a group of enemies in place for the 2nd hit). It is however, faster to kill enemies in a vortex using DA normal swings with ASI boost. Triglav works better on normal monsters since freeze is essentially a soloist status, and Sudaruska's stun works better on Vanaduke (wow, really just said that ;D), since attacks from other party members don't remove the status.
It's barely noticeable when solo or in a 2-person party, but the lack of speed and increased # of hits piles up when you're doing rooms alone in say, a 4-man party.
As much as I'd love to use Sudaruska/Triglav in Lockdown, the slower swings and normal damage just get to me ;_;
Then again, I don't really use a sword ASI set for those swords, so it might feel better at high-max.
Also, the charge is absolutely gimped by invincibility frames. If your target is not charging something or shocked, then your first hit will deal damage and your second hit will not register due to invincibility. It's soooo lame.
Catalyzers
In my chaos + gun damage trinket set, I bring Neutralizers on vana runs, along with Nova Driver, Electron Vortex, and Blitz. The charge does 500 (!) damage on depth 24 and feels good when you have 5+ zombies in a vortex.
This is alright, but I tested in the training hall: trying to see how many attacks I could do during the countdown-explosion-respawn of a single exploding block:
(gear: Chaos Set, Gun damage trinkets, CTR low Neutralizer, Swiftstrike)
Lay Vortex (total CTR: VH)> Switch to neutralizer (total CTR: Ultra) > Shot 1+charge > shoot charge > Shot2 + charge > bomb explode > detonate
Neutralizer (total ASI: High, total CTR : Ultra) > 5 charge shots + detonation.
Nova driver (total ASI: High) : 20 shots with perfect double-switching.
Put that into perspective with and it's like, why even charge? Each Nova bullet does a little more than half of a single neutralizer charge, so in the time I did 5 Neutralizer charges, I could have done literally over twice the amount of damage with Nova Driver's regular shots. That is no small difference.
Neutralizer's usefulness increases with tightly-grouped mobs of 5+, while Nova eats through smaller/sparser groups of 2-5 with much less setup/effort. Neutralizer is flashy as hell though.
I am one of the crazy people who will sometimes use only Biohazard in lockdown. I can play a... bit more aware than average players, sneaking up as recon and punching people in the face with it, baiting them in directions and laying down bullets as traps/blocks, then doing timed punches to the face again. But this is only versus average players. Good luck fighting experienced strikers, or god forbid, gunners with it :|
I'd like to note that it's probably pretty much unusable if you try to use the charge playstyle, due to your first shot triggering invincibility frames.
Magnus line
I really wanted to believe in Iron Slug. On neutral enemies, it deals the SAME (!!) damage as Callahan (for almost all the newer weapons, there have been noticeable differences between the normal and status-dealing variations, like increased damage for normals - Neutralizer's charge is stronger than Biohazard's neutral charge, for example). Callahan has the added bonus of stun and piercing extra damage, for fighting fiends and beasts.
Both magnus guns can interrupt-lock monsters per shot until say... depth 25, 26 (?) at which point it either takes 2 bullets or is impossible to interrupt enemies, at least neutral ones.
People argue ASI is useful for Callahan/Slug. But if you're using ASI as an offensive stat (as I do), and can fire near-max/post-max attack speed as I can, why are you not charging a blitz needle? I did the block-respawn test again, except using justifier+swiftstrike instead of chaos:
Blitz Needle (total CTR: VH, ASI:Max) - 2 charge attacks, 1 normal attack
Iron Slug (total ASI: Max) - 16 shots with perfect double-switch
Remember that Blitz fires 15 bullets per shot, each one doing almost the amount of a Callahan bullet. Oh, and perfect double-switch means that there's no walking between shots - you're shooting as soon as you can. It's almost all 'safety over damage'.
Iron Slug's charge is kind of underwhelming AND walks slower than Blitz. What's up with that? lol
In PVP, I find Magnus line's use to mostly lie in sniping with the charge attack. Iron slug is comparatively bad at everything except for sandbagging and trolling. Callahan might be useful for stun, but it's too bad that like, 80% of your opponents have piercing defense. I personally do not mix well with Magnus line because I'm far too used to being able to turn and aim mid-shot (It's the kind of movement I use to track strikers). It does feel nice when combined with deathmark though.
---------
That's it for me, as far as weapons that I actually own and use.
I kinda want to make a winmillion though, but I also don't mix well with 3-hit swords, and being F2P, can't go around crafting whatever I want.
Dom, 11/11/2012 - 07:55
#9
An interesting read, Seiran,
An interesting read, Seiran, very detailed~
I've never tried using Troikas on Vana, although I've heard of it. In P5 I can imagine the placement of the pre-charge must be awkward to get close enough to hit without face-planting one of his big, hot balls. For vortexes though, I do prefer Sudas charge over virtually anything. The massive KB, double-damage and resulting stun makes me feel like I've just left myself in a good position to clear up any survivors safely. Mind you, more often than not, things don't survive a smash to the face like that while trapped in a black hole.
As for LD, the Troikas can actually be quite good due to their KB power. Slow to swing even with max ASI, but their size (I'm aware that their hitbox is the same, but the graphic is much larger) is intimidating to players, and since folk don't see them that much they're unaccustomed to how far back eaxctly to stand. The charge however, is absolutely heartbreaking. I've had 10k+ from doing nothing but spamming dmg:med Suda charges at people but it is not easy due to how easily they can survive at full health and come back at you with a vengeance. At first I thought sneaking up on a group was good for damage, but it tends to get you killed; in my experience the better method is to unleash upon a fighting group while they're distracted and at lower health.
I've not got a Magnus myself but have seen it used fairly effectively in LD. Ofc, this was by well-practiced gunners who spent several matches getting the hang of it, but after a while you start to see yourself getting sniped by Calahhans and taking a serious nail to the knee when you weren't expecting it. I reckon it's useful more for the shock factor, as most people are expecting weak antiguas or rapid slower alchemers, and not an insta-hit nailing. I can't recall seeing it used much in teh CW though, so I've really no idea how practical it is. Against Fiends I'm curious, but I find that alch-switching works a treat against them anyways, so...
I would say more about the Catas, but I have absolutely no experience with them at all. I don't own one, the people I know who do own them don't use them often and I rarely see it in LD and when I do, I'm often a gunner/recon myself and just...step aside for the bullets.
I know what you mean though; I'd have so many more hipster weapons to try out and test if I could actually afford to craft whatever I wanted, but alas, I'm poor and can only get one thing at a time. My latest plan is to get myself a CiV :D
Because it looks rad. That's all. I want to stab someone in LD with it, srsly, just looks so cool and you see it so rarely :3
Dom, 11/11/2012 - 20:24
#10
"face-planting one of his big, hot balls"
May you be forever cursed for planting that image in my head, Darkbrady. D:
*
Anyway, I've nothing to add right now (maybe later), but this is a great discussion. Keep it coming!
That calls for opinion. Here is mine, with a few facts you left behind :
- 15% damage difference is about a DMG Med (7% per low according wiki). I consider that important.
- the fire is random at best, and if you are going to swing a lot, things are going to die fast enough. Same debate than Final Flourish vs Furious Flamberge. We know that answer, almost everyone get the first. There is also the problem of not stacking and fire-resistant mobs.
- we all know that the real selling point of attack speed is NOT the increased damage but rather the ability to shield faster, or interrupt an incoming attack (if you are slower, you get hit instead of interrupting the mob). 1 free attack for 9 attack is about 10% : that's a ASI High (3,6% per low according wiki). Again, I consider that important.
- you mention running around in the CW and a bit later consider that practical environment. I would consider a practical environment to be a place which is challenging, like FSC, shadow lair or a danger mission. Otherwise a lot of things don't seem really useful. And in those places, I'm damn well not going to pass up a DMG Med and ASI High, just for a fire that could well be useless.
As for weapon I don't use because they are UP and I tested (I left out those that I didn't bothered to craft, like Iron Slug, Troika lines and Neutralizer) :
- SSS. It's just too unreliable : about half of the damage is avoided by mobs which simply walks. Compared to DBB which will hit every single damn time and also does more damage than the total theoric possible of SSS.
- Biohazard. It's just too unpractical : the bullets are too slow, and the charge is even slower and lead to massive overkill. If you have a swordie with you, most of your shots will just miss because of his knockback, and you'll never detonate a charge before he killed the target.
- Arc Razor (didn't upgrade to Winmillion, as the Winmillion is supposed to be worse due to dodging/shielding mobs issue) : the attack pattern is meh, the charge is meh, the damage is meh. 'nuff said
As for unpopular weapons I use, despite being underpowered, there is only one DVS / WHB (I have both), because first they shine against Vanaduke, then their attack pattern is very different and fun : I make a challenge of dodging incoming attacks while continuing to attack (by attacking on the side of mobs which goes straight). The damage is clearly UP compared to non-normal, but it's usable if you don't mind (that means I'm certainly not going to use it in danger missions or SL).