Character Tier
mar, 12/07/2010 - 12:44
For new readers:
To put this thread back on track (as I have been seeing some good ideas), lets try discussing some creative ways of implementing a system as mentioned. Also, try not to mindlessly argue with each other if you do so (as many have done already).
This discussion is now officially about ideas towards implementing such a system, not about arguing for whether or not it's necessary.
Original post:
I recently created a character, got him out of the tutorial, traded him 4/5* Equipment, and within 3 hours of playtime was able to get to Emberlight on my own. I think this is a bit unreasonable. o_o
So most MMOs are based upon your actual Character leveling-up, not your "stuff". This is a reason I like SK, because it gets away from the usual. However, as I showed above, there are still issues with this. My suggestion is to actually give your character itself a Level, so that you can't just immediately wield the best stuff, you have to gain experience first. For example, your character starts as 0-Star Lv1, and gains experience with heat, where each LvN is slightly harder than the last. They level just as a weapon does, however, once they reach the end of Lv10 they gain a star and become 1-Star. It will now be significantly harder to Level up than the previous tier. So on, and so forth... they reach 5-Star Lv10 end-of-the-bar: perhaps they finally get their "Complete"? I don't know. So a characters Tier would go up as their Equipment does, just at a different rate (slower, would make more sense).
I just honestly think there needs to be some way to control this. People should have to advance through tiers smoothly, not suddenly. Not to mention the ridiculous boost people with CE get (like myself), as it is now.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 12:59
#2
no, lame
Nothing would prevent Level 5 Guy A from grouping with Level 0 Guy B, letting Guy A kill all the monsters and Guy B get all the loot. Right now the (incredibly lame) practice of powerlevelling someone like this is completely circumvented by allowing trade of good equipment directly. Cutting off equipment trades wouldn't stop new players from advancing prematurely, it'd just be a more awkward and time-consuming process
If I invite a friend of mine to play SK with me, I'm going to want to outfit them such that they can play WITH me at depth X rather than
- letting them play on their own and get bored while I play at a different tier entirely, or even
- making a brand new knight to adventure alongside them, which accomplishes nothing for my main knight that I actually care about
You also neglect to consider the important but invisible progression of PLAYER skill -- if you got a new player and dumped them into SK with no prior experience, gave them really excellent equipment and shot them straight to the core, they'd get trounced in no time. The game is not harder at lower depths simply because the monsters bite harder, but because they are also smarter and faster, and it takes YOU and ME and everyone else TIME to learn how to play Spiral Knights well in order to adventure in the deep dungeon levels. This is the most important type of advancement that happens in this game, WAY more important than equipment.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 15:55
#3
Nope
I think it's fine as it is.
At least since the balance you don't see players with proto shields in Ember.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 16:59
#4
I think a good idea would be
I think a good idea would be to change the binding restrictions on loot a little. First, if you upgrade an item, it should stay bound. Second, (at some point in development) only base equipment should be purchasable. Finally, upper-star weapon and armor drops should become bound after leaving the dungeon.
There definitely should be some kind of restrictions on advancement, though. Consider this: some time after launch, most players are always fighting near the Core. Because of this, the vast majority of drops are coming from more difficult areas, and so higher star loot actually becomes quite common. It also eventually becomes somewhat worthless. Newer players will then go to the auction house (a planned feature), and check what's for sale. As they won't cost too much, these new players will be able to buy 4 and 5 star gear with little effort, and once reaching the lower depths... stay there. Every area but Emberlight becomes empty and pointless. With the abundance of 5 star gear for all, there will be no point in even playing anymore, since gear was your one and only form of advancement.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 17:25
#5
With the abundance of 5 star
With the abundance of 5 star gear for all, there will be no point in even playing anymore, since gear was your one and only form of advancement.
The end of content is still in sight for all players no matter what gear they have.
If you buy energy, 4-star gear isn't out of reach in your first day if you get lucky with boxes and monster materials.
Even without an Auction House, it's still entirely possible to max out gear quickly.
The boxes even above Emberlight have been proven to drop items like Sealed Swords and Chroma Armors.
Just at a lower rate.
There's no actual way to fix this impassable content wall tied to gear, except to add a more in depth system with the gear that changes how often you go through it.
Because it's ridiculous that you can just dump 0-star gear and put on 5-star gear if it's traded to you.
That's not progression.
Drop rate isn't really a concern for items, since people will be able to craft most if not all of the drops eventually.
The concern is that there is no gear progression.
If you get that gear when you start playing and you can put it on straight away, that's a problem.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 17:32
#6
One of the new updates is
One of the new updates is supposed to fix this problem guys
Its gonna make your equips strength correspond to core depth
Closer=stronger
farther=weaker
This 5 star will be slightly better than everything else at haven depths, but not a huge difference
but after Emberlight there will be, at least thats what I think Nick was trying to say
mar, 12/07/2010 - 17:49
#7
>Because it's ridiculous that
>Because it's ridiculous that you can just dump 0-star gear and put on 5-star gear if it's traded to you.
Thus, 5-star gear should not be tradable. That was part of the solution I gave.
>Drop rate isn't really a concern for items, since people will be able to craft most if not all of the drops eventually.
>The concern is that there is no gear progression.
Correct. Drop rate is not important. Given enough time, most players will be at the end, and any drops they receive (regardless of frequency) will be useless and sold for a low price. By making upgraded items stay bound, as I just suggested, this creates a sort of gear progression.
Another idea could be to make it so that all items must be level 10 before they can be upgraded as well. Unless you're getting drops abnormally fast (such as by trading), you will more than likely have each item maxed before it's time to upgrade it.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 17:54
#8
>One of the new updates is
>One of the new updates is supposed to fix this problem guys
>Its gonna make your equips strength correspond to core depth
>Closer=stronger
>farther=weaker
>This 5 star will be slightly better than everything else at haven depths, but not a huge difference
>but after Emberlight there will be, at least thats what I think Nick was trying to say
That doesn't really change much. Once you get the hang of the game, you only have to play each tier one time before making it to the core because your stuff is essentially upgrading on its own. The objective is actually to slow players down as much as possible without the players seeing the game as a grind. It's a tricky thing to balance.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 19:00
#9
Thus, 5-star gear should not
Thus, 5-star gear should not be tradable. That was part of the solution I gave.
It doesn't add progression by not allowing people to acquire the highest rank of gear by trade, it just makes it slightly more involved.
If you can't trade the gear, people will just trade the recipes and materials. If you can't trade those, why does there need to be an auction house?
Given enough time, most players will be at the end, and any drops they receive (regardless of frequency) will be useless and sold for a low price.
Given enough time, the universe will meet back in the middle for a family reunion that ends with another big bang. It will only take a few trillion years.
I don't think there's anybody in the game with every slot filled with 5-star gear.
That 5-star gear isn't in abundance and the game has been out for a month.
The problem isn't even that people can get 4 and 5 star gear by trade.
It's that since it's so easy to acquire if you buy energy, people reach an impassable content wall too early.
Energy might open all doors and activate all turrets, but once you reach the end of the game, you've reached the end of the game.
By dividing the game up into tiers to begin with, they've created an end game environment before they've even created any end game material, creating a wall of content tied directly to gear.
From my experience with the game, Energy is pretty much the key to getting anything you want.
If you buy it, the same day, regardless of how limited trade of items and materials are, people are still going to be able to blast through content faster than a speeding Superman.
Even now, all you have to do is sell energy to get high star gear.
Back before the balance patch I bought energy and on the first day I did like, 5 Ember to Core runs and got the Drake Scales and Miracloth I needed to make my shield, armour and helmet.
I bought the Fuel Canisters with energy to make my Alchemer MKII and it only took like, 3 or 4 hours.
It's even easier now that all that stuff is in the shops. It only takes like, 10 seconds to sell energy and buy 4-star gear.
And even if you couldn't do any trading or buy and gear from shops, I can imagine it only taking a day to get the gear to go down past Emberlight at the most, without any form of ranking or progression to hinder people from just taking the best gear they can find.
The game might be in alpha but there's already a crippling flaw in that if you're willing to spend money, you can beat this game in a day.
I don't think much will change with that between now and beta or the full release.
Gear progression is nullified by having energy.
You wouldn't even by able to craft the high star gear without it.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 19:14
#10
I think my point has been strayed a bit (a lot)...
I think my point has been strayed a bit (a lot): a Knight with less than a few hours of playtime can already make it to the core which is, apparently, the ultimate goal of the Spiral Knights.
That is not right. Period. Unless of course the Devs have planned it to be this way, but then tell me this: what is the point of any 4-Star or less Equipment, Levels, or ANYTHING for that matter? Nothing! My point. For example, as Shroom mentioned with future populations: Haven, Moorcroft, and whatever other non-endgame places would be pointless.
My point is this: there needs to be some restriction so that a Knight can't just instantly get to the core. My suggestion was not thought through, obviously, as I typed in in about 45 seconds. However my actual point remains, and so does my opinion. It is ridiculous how a Knight can go from the Tutorial straight to Emberlight with endgame Equipment in a few hours (theoretically, and quite easily possible).
Edit: Actually now that I read everything again, I think most of you need to consider this as my main point:
If given the ability to have 5* Equipment with no real sense of progression, what is the point of lower level gates, Equipment, towns, and so on? Some of you say you wouldn't like the fact that you or your friend would have to go through monotonous training? Isn't that the whole point? You actually have to do work to get somewhere. If this game is going to be a sort of MMO, like an FPS or something, where there isn't much of a sense of progression, then get rid of all the useless stuff before 5*, honestly. Some poor player could waste days worth of playtime getting to the same spot another player did in 30 minutes. Seriously? Not right.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 19:22
#11
I consider Spiral Knights fun
I consider Spiral Knights fun enough in its own right that just playing the game and finding treasure and whacking monsters is more interesting than just flying as fast as I can towards the core IE reaching the core is not the end-all, be-all 'now i'm done with spiral knights' ultimate goal of this game
but maybe i'm in the minority
mar, 12/07/2010 - 20:06
#12
As is, there is really no ultimate point to anything but...
But what happens if you can easily complete Haven-Moorcroft, and want a challenge. But you have to wait til you have to level to get that piece of armour/weapon that would let you do that?
- Bolgron
That's the whole point. You can't just have everything you want right away, you actually have to work for it. If you want a challenge, then go deeper? You might say it's too unbalanced? Well then there's another issue: the balance patch was not balanced enough. Hah!
If I invite a friend of mine to play SK with me, I'm going to want to outfit them such that they can play WITH me at depth X rather than
- letting them play on their own and get bored while I play at a different tier entirely, or even
- making a brand new knight to adventure alongside them, which accomplishes nothing for my main knight that I actually care about
- Benamas
I'm just going to say that argument has no validity here, honestly. First, who says your friend would get bored? Who says everyone is just like your friend? Even if they did, then he probably doesn't like the game, because, of course, didn't you have to go through it yourself in the first place to get to the apparently advanced tier you are at now? Who says you hae to play a different tier? Why not go back to their tier? After all, the newer balance patch (if you've read it) is going to nullify the invincibility of better-geared players at even the easiest depths. Secondly, you seem to me like you're thinking too much on your own behalf, and not being that considerate of your so-called friend.
You also neglect to consider the important but invisible progression of PLAYER skill
- Benamas
Again, that is not the point. It's about the general player, not a good/bad one. Being a good/bad player in most games has an effect regardless. Someone who has played for days on SK should, as bad a player as they might be, have strength over some 3-hour guy who's good at video games. This is what I call experience-based gaming. However, there should be a good balance with other types of gaming, as in the whole skill-based part as well. That is, players with, say, equal experience, might differ on levels of skill and thus differ on overall strength levels. You can't have JUST experience based or JUST skill based.
At least since the balance you don't see players with Proto shields in Ember.
- Pupu
Do I even need to comment? This is merely opinion. I'm not even sure this has anything to do with my post...
@Shroom: Not sure exactly what you're saying in every sentence, but I agree with parts.
@Shoebox: Same here as above, but you seem like you contradicted yourself by saying "dumping 0-star gear and putting on 5-star gear if it's traded to you is NOT progression" and then saying "If you get that gear when you start playing and you can put it on straight away, that's a problem" - isn't that in itself progression? As in, progressing through better Equipment. Unless you mean it's not progressive because the player isn't even progressing, as they should have to be?
@Kymroi: Yes, that will help the issue. However it will not totally fix it, because players can still go directly from the Rescue Camp with Proto crap to the Core with 5* Equipment, within a few hours of starting on the Knight.
Thus, 5-star gear should not be tradeable. That was part of the solution I gave.
- Shroom
I wouldn't say that exactly helps, because then the issue will be with 4* stuff. So make 4* untradeable, same thing... then you get to the point where Equips are not tradeable at all - well then as someone stated people will just trade Materials, and blah blah blah... oh my... I don't think these sorts of restrictions are the ideal solution.
Also, as for the drop rate issue and Equips that drop - a player would simply be lucky by getting it perhaps it would give them more motivation to train to be able to use it. Just because an item is given to you doesn't mean you should be able to use it... this is the whole point, really.
I'm going to stop there as for replies.
As is, there is really no ultimate point to anything but the best stuff. Perhaps something as simple as requiring a Knight to actually craft an item before they can wield it would make things right. If this game is really going to be a non-progressive game, where players can roam freely and do anything they want with any Equips they want as soon as they want, then there is no real point to have any Tier system (for Equips, gates, or anything) at all.
Again, to make my overall point clear: there should be some form of progression, so as to not allow Knights to go from zero to five with merely a few hours of playtime. Otherwise, what is the point to any tier system to being with? If we can all potentially have the best stuff right away, then what is the true point to anything else below it?
mar, 12/07/2010 - 19:53
#13
You knocked over the questions in my previous post pretty well
Now that I've read this thread thoroughly and its responses, I think I agree that instantaneous character progression from first to last tier is a bad thing.
Personally, I've had a tough time jumping the hurdle from moorcroft->emberlight to emberlight->core, because I've been unlucky about finding four-star gear/materials, BUT I haven't had a high-level player showering me with gifts, either.
I don't know what actual method could be used to force progression to slow down, though.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 20:08
#14
... what is the point of any "Stars" to begin with?
I honestly wouldn't even call it progression, now that I think about the implications of the word. I think I would just called instantaneous and effortless jumps hah. If people can go directly from 0-Star to 5-Star, basically just as easily as from 0-Star to 1-Star, what is the point of any "Stars" to begin with? With this, the same goes for Gates themselves: Haven and Moorcroft would become completely overshadowed by Emberlight.
Right now the game is based almost entirely off of how much money you have, whether it's in Crowns or CE. There is always player skill, but that isn't the point here, as player skill is totally uncontrollable. It should be based off of a good balance between experience (play-time) and skill - yet I see next to no experience-based "progression". The amount of "skill" is alright (better than most games), and that's not the point here so I wont go on about it. As for CE... it should not make an overwhelming difference. Perhaps a small one, but not nearly as much as either experience or skill should make, as it obviously does right now.
I think a hindering issue to the argument is the fact that, even after the balance patch, things are unbalanced. Of course this is pre-beta (or whatever), and I know it will (should) get fixed, but it does contribute to the problems with progression of which we are discussing now.
Another somewhat off-topic issue: has anyone noticed that you can warp to a friend who's about to complete the gate before Emberlight (literally standing beside the elevator), complete it with them, and gain a pass? o_o
mar, 12/07/2010 - 20:07
#15
THE MORE YOU KNOW
pro·gres·sion
[pruh-gresh-uhn]
–noun
1. the act of progressing; forward or onward movement.
2. a passing successively from one member of a series to the next; succession; sequence.
3. Mathematics . a succession of quantities in which there is a constant relation between each member and the one succeeding it. Compare arithmetic progression, geometric progression, harmonic progression.
4. Music . the manner in which chords or melodic tones follow one another; a succession of chords or tones.
5. Astrology . any of a variety of methods of comparing the natal chart to subsequent planetary positions in order to establish an optimum time to accomplish things or to establish the probable time an event occurred or will occur.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 20:10
#16
Yes, I know what the word means. Your point?
@Shoebox: Yes, I know what the word means. Your point?
What I'm saying is this: there is no meaningful progression, aside from leveling up your 5* gear. There should be no direct ties from the weakest stuff to the strongest stuff; or else to say everything is relatively equal to begin with.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 20:13
#17
@Shoebox: Same here as above,
@Shoebox: Same here as above, but you seem like you contradicted yourself by saying "dumping 0-star gear and putting on 5-star gear if it's traded to you is NOT progression" and then saying "If you get that gear when you start playing and you can put it on straight away, that's a problem" - isn't that in itself progression? As in, progressing through better Equipment. Unless you mean it's not progressive because the player isn't even progressing, as they should have to be?
I don't think you do.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 20:45
#18
I see no real sense of progression in SK as is.
I don't think you do. - Shoebox
What are you even pointing at? o_o
I see no real sense of progression in SK as is. You can get the best stuff right away (probably by CE), and the only progression left is to get that best stuff to the "Complete" stage. It seems like you're saying the exact same thing.
Perhaps we are just on a different level of what exactly "Progression" means in terms of SK? By progression, I mean actually having to do work to get to the Core, not a single run. There needs to be a goal that isn't reached in just a few hours.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 20:28
#19
What is it with people's aversion to reading on this forum?
What are you even pointing at?
@Shoebox: Same here as above, but you seem like you contradicted yourself by saying "dumping 0-star gear and putting on 5-star gear if it's traded to you is NOT progression" and then saying "If you get that gear when you start playing and you can put it on straight away, that's a problem" - isn't that in itself progression? As in, progressing through better Equipment. Unless you mean it's not progressive because the player isn't even progressing, as they should have to be?
@Shoebox: Same here as above, but you seem like you contradicted yourself by saying "dumping 0-star gear and putting on 5-star gear if it's traded to you is NOT progression" and then saying "If you get that gear when you start playing and you can put it on straight away, that's a problem" - isn't that in itself progression? As in, progressing through better Equipment. Unless you mean it's not progressive because the player isn't even progressing, as they should have to be?
@Shoebox: Same here as above, but you seem like you contradicted yourself by saying "dumping 0-star gear and putting on 5-star gear if it's traded to you is NOT progression" and then saying "If you get that gear when you start playing and you can put it on straight away, that's a problem" - isn't that in itself progression? As in, progressing through better Equipment. Unless you mean it's not progressive because the player isn't even progressing, as they should have to be?
Should I repeat it some more?
Perhaps we are just on a different level of what exactly "Progression" means in terms of SK? By progression, I mean actually having to do work to get to the Core, not a single run. There needs to be a goal that isn't reached in just a few hours.
Oh you mean, like progressing through a sequence of goals to reach the core, as in the second, highlighted meaning of progression that I posted ten minutes ago?
Because it would make sense if you read things, you know.
Like you're supposed to on a forum.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 20:48
#20
What I'm asking is, what do you mean by "I don't think you do."?
I can see your quotation, obviously. And in fact I read everything you said (twice). What I'm asking is, what do you mean by "I don't think you do."? You "don't think I do" what? It seemed to me like you contradicted yourself, are you saying you did not? Then I just plain don't get what your opinion is, and I apologize for my apparently wrongful judgment. However, would you mind explaining exactly what your argument is? Because I'm pretty sure I agree with you, for the most part.
Reworded: Perhaps we are just on a different level of what exactly "Progression" means in terms of SK? By progression, I mean actually having to do work to get to the Core, not a single run. I don't consider going from 0 to 5 star Equipment by the click of a button progression. There needs to be a goal that isn't reached in just a few hours, but rather reached by a good, balanced combination of experience and skill - just as most games (of this genre/MMO) are built.
Edit: Again:
I see no real sense of progression in SK as is. You can get the best stuff right away (probably by CE), and the only progression left is to get that best stuff to the "Complete" stage. It seems like you're saying the exact same thing.
Is this the same thing as you're saying? I simply don't get exactly what your point is, not that I didn't read what you said (three times now).
mar, 12/07/2010 - 20:57
#21
pro·gres·sion
pro·gres·sion
[pruh-gresh-uhn]
–noun
1. the act of progressing; forward or onward movement.
2. a passing successively from one member of a series to the next; succession; sequence.
3. Mathematics . a succession of quantities in which there is a constant relation between each member and the one succeeding it. Compare arithmetic progression, geometric progression, harmonic progression.
4. Music . the manner in which chords or melodic tones follow one another; a succession of chords or tones.
5. Astrology . any of a variety of methods of comparing the natal chart to subsequent planetary positions in order to establish an optimum time to accomplish things or to establish the probable time an event occurred or will occur.
@Shoebox: Yes, I know what the word means.
@Shoebox: Same here as above, but you seem like you contradicted yourself by saying "dumping 0-star gear and putting on 5-star gear if it's traded to you is NOT progression" and then saying "If you get that gear when you start playing and you can put it on straight away, that's a problem" - isn't that in itself progression? As in, progressing through better Equipment. Unless you mean it's not progressive because the player isn't even progressing, as they should have to be?
I don't think you do.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 21:28
#22
I think almost person who's
I think almost person who's posting in this thread (exception: Bolgron?) started playing and managed to make a Core run before the rebalance. As such most of us managed to get some very high level equipment and have been bumping up against the edge of the game. Chronus, you mentioned that you self traded a bunch of a equipment to yourself; has anyone here tried a new character now and just relied on the goodwill of other players for items? I think there is an over-estimation of how many upper level players donate items compared to the amount of new players showing up. Think about how few people end up joining the "mature" crowd in Emberlight compared to how many new faces walk through Haven every day. I think it's been said (a few weeks back now) that there's over 1000 registrations but only 40~50 people are regulars.
I think that the good items for sale in Haven will not be in the final iteration of the game. The current items will likely end up spread through the levels associated with their zones It's currently correct to say that this throws progression out the window as someone with some extra cash in the bank can drop straight into Emberlight. Though is is also abundantly clear to me that the merchants are not in their final states and currently do not match well with the recently released items. We all know that outside of haven there hasn't been an update to the merchants outside of Haven (I want new recipes! *shakes tiny fist*).
mar, 12/07/2010 - 21:23
#23
My apologies if this was all just a misunderstanding...
I know what progression means. Progression is the basis of my argument. This is why I have stated that there is none in Spiral Knights (except a small amount, really). (Yes, someone can choose to progress intentionally, but that is a corollary of my whole point - it's not necessary. Being as you seem to be strongly opposed to the whole CE thing, you should know what I mean by "it's not necessary", because if you have CE, it's not necessary.)
You seem to agree with my point about the lack of a real progressive system, so why get so defensive? Unless you actually don't agree - and if that's the case, well then honestly, I'm totally lost as you have contradicted yourself quite a bit.
My apologies if this was all just a misunderstanding and we are actually in agreement.
Edit:
@d0gr0ck: Yes, it is true that I self-traded myself and not everybody will simply receive the "best stuff", whether it be from players, good luck, or CE. However, it is still theoretically possible - that's the problem (especially with CE). I strongly believe there should be absolutely no way of going directly from 0* to 5* this "fast", no matter how ridiculous the circumstances are. In otherwords, it should be impossible.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 22:04
#24
I think you've stumbled upon
I think you've stumbled upon an inherent problem of having high and low level players being able to access each other. Most games attack this problem by using their leveling system to lockout high tier items from low level players. You see it in old games like Diablo II and newer games like Borderlands. However, even with these controls there's sill the occasional unique item that strains rationality for a new player to have. Though in my two choice citing there is random time generation, which is not so in Spiral Knights
Perhaps you would propose a system by which high star items are unlocked as per depth progression. So 2 and 3-star become usable once you reach Moorcroft Manor and 4 and 5-star items unlock once you reach Emberlight. This would, however, not prevent a low level player from possessing or being able to trade said items.
To prevent people from dragging newbies down through the system (and thus quick unlocks) the targeting logic of the enemies could be revised. If a player appears to be clearly under leveled (as shown by the treat level indicator) they would be priority targeted. This would basically kill off the low player, aggravate the bujezus out of the high level player and thus heavily discouraging the activity. This could work particularity well now that high level players should no longer be able to godzilla the Haven floors.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 22:56
#25
I like the idea of literally having star levels "unlocked"...
I like the idea of literally having star levels "unlocked", as you mentioned - it's simple and understandable to anyone. This is exactly what I was trying to get at (though my ideas were perhaps more complicated than the ideal, as far as SK goes). I think this would work a lot better if the Core was at a depth of something much greater, perhaps with more towns in between. Right now 30 doesn't seem like a lot, and with 2 more towns and 20 more depths, each "unlock" could be met every town, or every 10 depths. With this, players would be forced to level their gear in order to actually survive the coming depths to be able to make it to the next town or unlock area (unless they got lucky, but this can be fixed with lock rooms AKA Party Pads).
For example:
Bob the Knight starts his journey.
Bob leaves the Rescue Camp with Lv3~5 Proto Equips.
Bob completes the Firefly gate a few times, as well as some of the Tier 1 gates in Haven, getting his Proto Equips to about Lv8~9, maybe even complete.
Bob can now survive and fight his way to Moorcroft, where he finds Equips better than his Proto ones.
The process repeats, except taking longer each tier with new town and higher star-level Equips.
A Possible Simple Progression System:
- Get 0* Equips in Rescue Camp (for consistency sake)
- Train 0* Equips in Rescue Camp gates
- Survive and make it to Tier 1 Town
- Get 1* Equips in Tier 1 Town (i.e. Haven)
- Train 1* Equips to Lv8~10 in Tier 1 -> Tier 2 gates
- Survive and make it to Tier 2 Town
- Get 2* Equips in Tier 2 Town
- Train 2* Equips to Lv8~10 in Tier 2 -> Tier 3 gates
- Survive and make it to Tier 3 Town
- Get 3* Equips in Tier 3 Town
- Train 3* Equips to Lv8~10 in Tier 3 -> Tier 4 gates
- ...
- Survive and make it to Tier n Town
- Get n* Equips in Tier n Town
- Train n* Equips to Lv8~10 in Tier n -> Tier n+1 gates
I think this makes sense.
Edit: Mathematically speaking, this sort of system would require the defense/attack power of Equipment to increase exponentially according to tier level. This is to make sure Knights cannot survive in areas they shouldn't be at. I'm not sure how this would be represented accurately via the current display scheme, though... Perhaps the bars themselves would represent exponential increase? The problem with this is it wouldn't be clear, as it seems to advertise a linear increase, regardless.
mar, 12/07/2010 - 23:01
#26
You need to spend some more
You need to spend some more time in sciences where all innocent looking lines are actually logarithmic scales. :P
Also, perhaps some experimenting in the shallows a bit to see how much strength is lost is necessary. Maybe I will Alchemize some bottom tier gear to gauge how this would work.
There is Science to be had!
mar, 12/07/2010 - 23:16
#27
Haha.
Oh I've had my share of math believe me, hahah. Too bad not everyone knows what a logarithm is; or even a line for that matter... you know what, who cares: it can represent a hyperbolic sine for all it matters (that wouldn't make any sense would it?) - as long as it works. :D
I might try some experimenting too sometime, as I think the latest patch made things more reasonable. I guess you could say it seems that the Devs intention is exactly this (come the official release), only the fact that there is no blocking out unreached tier gear. :/
mer, 12/08/2010 - 05:32
#28
I think you're forgetting a
I think you're forgetting a different approach to this problem. Right now I've read here about limiting people from skipping part of the "progression trail". What about giving people the freedom to do so, but let them miss out on semi-important and/or important items and/or abilities in the game? A rewarding system is always better than a punishing/limiting system I believe. Look at WoW, people are limited by level > powerleveling steps in. What did you reach with such a solution? Well some third party sites make a good living off of it, but that's not the intended outcome, right?
One thing proposed earlier in a different thread was some sort of reward system for goals reached inside the depths of SK. These for an instance could be made equipment tier-related. You aren't limited to using lower tier armor, you just miss out on some if you pick better armor.
Another idea is already mentioned before and is alchemy related. Upgraded equipment should stay player-bound, I agree. This way you don't have access to unique variants of equipment just through trades, aka another "bonus" you need to work for.
I have to get back to class now, but will post more when I get back :P
Edit: At home now, so here's some more :P
An only slightly-limiting idea which came from your character leveling-idea Chronus. Instead of completely limiting the usage of certain equipment, why not limit its max reachable potential instead? This can be done either artificially apart from your equipment level, or directly by limiting to which level you can level up your equipment? (or perhaps another via way I haven't thought of :P)
Implement special "boss" fights linked to a specific tier and town, which you can only enter by wielding up to the allowed equipment tier? (similar to the PvP arena fights with a Tier Limit, but in this case for 1-5*?) Defeating the boss would grant you e.g. a special untradeable material or item needed to acquire an untradeable item which gives you a buff of some sort? Or something else, just something that gives you enough incentive to equally prefer the 1* boss versus the 5* boss reward-wise at any given player-level?
If I catch more ideas in my mind, I'll add them up here too some other time :p
mer, 12/08/2010 - 10:33
#29
This thread ... makes me
This thread ... makes me cringe ...
... A three hour post to reply to this all?
Punchline number one: The goal of the game is not to have 5* items. The goal of the game is to play the game.
The goal of the NIGHTS is to reach the core, apparently, because we don't know what's there. It hasn't been reached yet. Ignore the incomplete state of the current pre-beta.
Misconception number one: High star equipment will not be sold freely in Haven. That's even been mentioned by the devs -- it's there now for us to test.
Punchline number two: The core you can reach is not the real core.
Misconception number two: Expect almost all high-end equipment in the released game to require alchemizing lower equipment that is heated. Unless there is a change to the heat/trade rules, this means that everyone will have to personally know recipes and play with their lower level items before they can make bigger stuff -- and given the rarity and difficulty of doing this, there will be little or no surplus 5 star items for trade.
Punchline number three: A functioning player economy will ruin this. A proper economy means "rare" does not exist, only "expensive".
Misconception number three: Below emberlight is intended to be raid-only level encounters. Think 8-12 people fighting over a very few number of drops -- at least, that's how I've seen raids in other games.
Misconception number four: There is something wrong with a game that lets you start with lots of game coin.
Punchline 4 or misconception 5 or general question one (not sure which): Is there a problem with a game where people can buy high-strength characters from a third party web site? How about from the game maker's own website? How about in-game from the other players? ... And what if you can't do it for real world cash, but only for game coin? That eliminates the people who do it for "a job", and leaves only those who do it for fun. Right? Good? Bad? Indifferent?
NB: "Punchlines" are not meant to be understood out of context. It's like getting the punchline of a joke without the rest of the joke. If you've heard it before, you understand, and if not, you might not.
As I said, a proper reply would take me three hours.
You want a TL;DR summary of this? Ok.
** Do not assume that 5 star, or even 4 star, items will be easily available. Assume that most of them will require alchemizing heated stuff, so supply will be rare. If you actually have any sort of meaningful player economy, then "rare" won't exist, only "expensive", and enough cash will buy 5 star items by the end of the first month. Is that really a problem? Isn't the point of the game to enjoy playing it, and if someone spends money to have less enjoyment, isn't that their choice? **
mer, 12/08/2010 - 10:56
#30
K. My turn.
< I haven't been to the core yet. >
I'm the exception to all your AMAGAD CHANGE IT arguaments, with current experience of it.
I play every day, until my Mist Energy runs out; and then log off until it comes back.
I've been playing for a while, and I'm in Tier 2 [Moorcroft-Emberlight] armour.
All that armour is at level 10 now, and I'm struggling to get better armour. I'm slowly upgrading everything to 3 star items. From there to four star.
But it's taking TIME.
I ONLY buy energy off of the market with crowns which I use for quickly making new armour/weapons, or for extended dungeon runs if people come online. Personally the armour progression isn't fast enough! A higher crown drop would be great to help buy/upgrade my armour, as well as recipes to do so; or have recipes that cost less than they currently do.
In terms of donations, I was given a Firotech Alchemer and a Brandish. Also for cosmetics a Magic Hood and Robe. That's ALL. So, if you don't buy energy and aren't donated to by others I find the game progresses quite slowly.
Thanks.
mer, 12/08/2010 - 11:32
#31
Lol @ your TL;DR most of them
Lol @ your TL;DR Curtai
most of them will require alchemizing heated stuff, so supply will be rare. If you actually have any sort of meaningful player economy, then "rare" won't exist, only "expensive"
Wait so you want to make a point first that things will be rare, and then you want to make another point that rare doesn't exist, which erm, nullifies your previously made point? You even exactly point out the issue from the OP. The current state the game is in, money is the key to immediate 4* equipment. (I can't speak about 5* yet since only the bomb is out yet :P )
Of course, you're right, people may choose whichever they like to do. If they want to skip ahead a major part and go straight to the end, then that's their choice. But then again, for the player-base in the game that isn't very healthy considering a part of normally new/lower ranked players will shoot up to the high "class" immediately through money, which will make you end up with a game majorly consisting of high level players? The sight of a nearly abandoned newbies-area is a good way to scare off new players don't you think?
Just for the fun of it:
Punchline number one: The goal of the game is not to have 5* items. The goal of the game is to play the game.
The goal of the KNIGHTS is to reach the core, apparently, because we don't know what's there. It hasn't been reached yet. Ignore the incomplete state of the current pre-beta.
Isn't the goal of your in-game character more or less the same as yours? You're playing the game for fun, yes. But you're not grinding that little tad for no reason. You wish to make progress in the game. What's making progress without a goal to reach? Nothing. So you need a goal, which in our case is The Core. If you disagree, I challenge you to play SK without going to the core ever, since the levels closer to the surface should (according to you) suffice for enough entertainment!
Misconception number one: High star equipment will not be sold freely in Haven. That's even been mentioned by the devs -- it's there now for us to test.
Misconception number one: We know that. However, some equipment will be available at some shops, and probably everything else will be available through players.
Misconception number two: Expect almost all high-end equipment in the released game to require alchemizing lower equipment that is heated. Unless there is a change to the heat/trade rules, this means that everyone will have to personally know recipes and play with their lower level items before they can make bigger stuff -- and given the rarity and difficulty of doing this, there will be little or no surplus 5 star items for trade.
Mind you, this issue of free trading after alchemizing equipment has been brought up in this thread. You bring up a very suited issue for this thread in a post where you want to disagree with everything this thread stands for, congrats?
Misconception number three: Below emberlight is intended to be raid-only level encounters. Think 8-12 people fighting over a very few number of drops -- at least, that's how I've seen raids in other games.
So you're saying you like games to be a lot more similar to eachother? Since raids in other games were presented a whole lot different? Omgosh! ..
Here it's up to 4 players. I don't know if that'll ever change, but I don't feel the need for that. Oh and again, don't make statements about Emberlight or lower. You still haven't reached that level!
Misconception number four: There is something wrong with a game that lets you start with lots of game coin.
Every game that has a currency allows players to start off with a lot of in-game coin, be it through 3rd party offers or in-game mechanisms. (unless of course you want a game with player-bound coin?) This thread doesn't state that as a problem, it states the range of in-game content you can reach solely off that easily acquired in-game coin as the problem.
mer, 12/08/2010 - 12:35
#32
Just a teensy bit...
Evolution > You still haven't reached that level [said @ Curtai]
Erm, unless that's an insult, thats more evidence of the same. Ta ^^
mer, 12/08/2010 - 12:39
#33
It's not an insult, it's
It's not an insult, it's merely stating again that his repetitive judgements about below Emberlight levels are silly since he hasn't yet been there?
mer, 12/08/2010 - 12:58
#34
Great!
That's great then; more evidence against the initial argument: if you don't buy energy it's not too simple and quick!
Besides, during dev stages it's better to have a high amount of players who have high-end equipment/stats. They can test almost every piece of new content.
It's the newer players who deal with stuff like this, I reckon.
mer, 12/08/2010 - 13:43
#35
Curtai you fail to notice my main point, as many others have.
I think Evolution summed up my thoughts pretty well. Curtai you fail to notice my main point, as many others have. Regardless of whether or not the game is in beta, or pre-beta, or commercial release, or the game of the century, that does not change my point. The economy, how hard it is to level stuff, does not change my point.
So, again, I will state my point:
It should not, under any circumstance, be possible to go directly from Tier 0 to Tier [THE BEST], especially when it involves totally unfair methods. A common misconception I'm seeing here is that things simply being expensive is a solution. I'm sorry but that is bullocks. I can tell you by experience: I feel sorry for people like Bolgron who have done all this work and have so much trouble getting new Equips, only to be at Moorcroft (no offense at all). This while there's people like me with CE who can sell a couple bundles and go buy the best crap on a fresh new Knight and get to the core in a few friggin hours. Yes I know the current NPCs are for testing purposes, but you are contradicting yourself (Curtai): with a large player base, as you said, there will be no such thing as "rare" just "expensive" (which I agree with for the most part), and thus the need for NPCs will be replaced by the amount of items in circulation because of the huge player base. Therefore it will be just as easy for players with a load of Crowns/CE to get their hands on the same stuff that is for sale now. There should be some limiting way that Knights can advance like this, to keep everybody at an even relative to how much work they actually do; you know what I mean by this. Either that or, as Evolution suggested (which I like the idea of as well) make some sort of bribery system to get players into certain Tiers to complete certain tasks.
Also Curtai, if a game was meant solely for "entertainment" as you state, then why should we need to pay for Energy in the first place? The companies need their money. There is no perfect balance. It's impossible to make everyone happy.
Anyways I think most of your stuff was pointed at other people being as half the stuff you mentioned I never even touched on, so I'll stop there.
@Bolgron: Read above. You of all people should understand, then. It's the fact that it's possible, not that it's improbable.
Edit: Okay I just glanced over this again and it made me laugh, Curtai:
Ignore the incomplete state of the current pre-beta.
I really do hope you are joking. I seriously hope you are joking. We are playing the incomplete state of the beta in order to test the incomplete state of the beta in order to make comments, suggestions, and bug reports about the incomplete state of the beta in order for the Devs to make it a real game. This is exactly what we are discussing here. In fact, this is exactly what we are discussing in this whole section. In fact, this is exactly why we are playing the game to begin with. Ignoring the so-called "incomplete" state of the beta is contradicting our very purpose. Half of your arguments have no effect on the issue to begin with. I think you just like to argue, honestly.
mer, 12/08/2010 - 13:33
#36
@ Chronus
Oh yeah, it's possible :) And I like that it's possible. It forced me to learn to out-play people who were better geared than me; which is always a good thing ^^
mer, 12/08/2010 - 13:40
#37
You realize I am basically telling you that...
@Bolgron: You realize I am basically telling you that you could do days worth of work on Knight A, a Crown/CE-infused player could do a mere couple hours worth of work on Knight B, and be far ahead of you, right? This is a corollary of what I am saying should not be possible. If you seriously admire the fact that it is possible, well then all I can say is congratulations. o_o
mer, 12/08/2010 - 13:53
#38
Heh
Yeah, I like that. Knight B won't play as well as me!
I've worked for days on my character, and only just got both parts of Drake Scale Mail; I still enjoy the game! A mate I invited to the game, who bought energy, a week in has full Rock Jelly, one of those turtle shields, and nearly a khorovod. But I enjoy it; its a challenge!
What's a game if it isn't challenging? Boring, to me. If it's challenging from the outset, you'll keep players. If you show players what they COULD get, early in the game, theyll stay to try and get the same, seeing other aspects of the game along the way to raise their standards so when they reach the initial ones they still have a reason to play. It's great :)
mer, 12/08/2010 - 14:16
#39
Well then I congratulate you once again...
Well then I congratulate you once again on not being the typical player. Most people enjoy putting in the same (relative) amount of work that other players do, and receiving the same rewards. Showing (most) players what they don't have that others do from a couple of clicks is not going to make them happy, for the most part. I don't know too many people who can take such a demoralizing fact and put it into a light perspective, as you have. I must say I respect your level of enthusiasm.
Edit: If you really want to get down to it, Knight B might play even better than you. Perhaps because they have played on other characters, or just because they have natural skill. It may even be because they are able to play in deeper gates and thus have become battle-hardened by the significantly harder scenarios down there. I wouldn't get your hopes up by assuming that, just because a Knight has instant access to the best stuff, he is going to be less skilled than you. Neither would I assume that, just because a Knight does not have this sort of access, they will be better than those who do.
mer, 12/08/2010 - 14:31
#40
agaiin
It doesn't matter about reality. It's psychological. I believe; therefore it is :) And Knight B has the opportunity to play WITH me, at higher levels than I can solo. Here the challenge is to simply play harder than him. Friendly competition is nice! And I'm presuming Knight B to be a new player, who started at the same time as Knight A/me.
But yeah, endless optimism wins thru in the end; I shall destroy you all when I get the gear!!
mer, 12/08/2010 - 16:41
#41
The only thing there's evidence of is people's inability to read
I'm the exception to all your AMAGAD CHANGE IT arguaments, with current experience of it.
So you play entirely for free only using Mist Energy and are as good as a paying player?
I ONLY buy energy off of the market with crowns which I use for quickly making new armour/weapons, or for extended dungeon runs if people come online. Personally the armour progression isn't fast enough! A higher crown drop would be great to help buy/upgrade my armour, as well as recipes to do so; or have recipes that cost less than they currently do.
Oh, you're not actually an exception at all. That's nice.
Also, armour progression is only slow for you because 3-star is literally, your limit as a free player.
Getting 4-star stuff requires you to go below Emberlight to even get the recipes.
Which would require you to leech off of a paying player or someone who had the foresight to buy energy back when it was being sold ridiculously cheap.
That, to me isn't 'out-playing' anybody. That doesn't even sound remotely fun.
mer, 12/08/2010 - 17:02
#42
@Shoebox
Tone down the sarcasm kidda. I don't like it, and it doesn't benefit a stable and friendly community. I'm not gonna argue over that, it's a statement of my personal preference.
Anyway:
>Oh, you're not actually an exception at all. That's nice
To the initial subject of the topic, yes I am.
>Also, armour progression is only slow for you because 3-star is literally, your limit as a free player.
Getting 4-star stuff requires you to go below Emberlight to even get the recipes
4-star gear can be acquired through alchemy as a free player in a simple-enough way. For example trading the energy and mats to another player with the recipe; or obviously if the recipe can be acquired doing it all yourself. Going below Emberlight is possible before then via generosity of players, or a group of lower star-level players teaming it. The latter takes a while; but it's actually a really fun community activity.
So I don't believe there IS a limit on star gear as once the 4-star gap is broken you have the same equipment as players who pay.
>Which would require you to leech off of a paying player or someone who had the foresight to buy energy back when it was being sold ridiculously cheap.
That, to me isn't 'out-playing' anybody. That doesn't even sound remotely fun
As stated above, "leeching", or general free-will of players in a community, is an obvious option. I prefer to do as much as I can by my own, in relation to my in game finances and gear. Therefore I get crowns from dungeon runs [town to town], and save up. It takes longer but it works very well.
I saw energy being sold ridiculously cheap, and thought I wouldn't abuse that. I'd prefer to acquire things from my own ability, not being offered them on a plate. Hence my usage of Mist Energy, and Crystal energy bought with crowns only.
Out-playing somebody has nothing to do with this. The earlier point had to do with learning tactics to effectively kill monsters quicker than others; due to the necessity of finding a way to equalise the damage done by you and the better geared individual. A task which I find very fun, because I love being challenged by something. It's why I enjoy puzzles and the like, it's something that stretches me. A personal preference, not a generalised thing.
mer, 12/08/2010 - 19:09
#43
Uh
I didn't read all of this but it seems like people are complaining that the game needs... grinding?
Wat.
mer, 12/08/2010 - 19:34
#44
... that's not what it's all about. Definitely not.
@Pupu: Read it all then haha. I'm joking, really, but that's not what it's all about. Definitely not.
Anyways... I think this thread is just going for the worse. Basically, the original point was that it's ridiculous how it's possible for a player to have top-tier stuff almost immediately, while another player could slave away for days worth of time only to acquire half of what the former did.
mer, 12/08/2010 - 20:48
#45
I'll make a seperate thread
I'll make a seperate thread about this at some point, but here's the bare bones of my idea:
Tie "character progression" to story, not difficulty tiers.
As you arrive on the planet you are a mere recruit in the Spiral Knights. You work your way up through the ranks, somehow, independent of your equipment or which dungeons you play. As you do so, you unlock more story, and more gameplay content (of various forms) to go with it.
lun, 12/13/2010 - 07:57
#46
Well..
The way I see it is that the problem is that every single dungeon or tunnel is accessible by anyone, no matter what their gear is like, or their level or progression in the game. I think that it needs to have some sort of block for being run straight to the end. Not saying this to cut out powerleveling, as that is a part of any game (WoW, GW, LotRO, DAoC) Most people will have been leveled at some point in an MMO by a higher level.
Simple restriction on the amount of level dungeon you can access is what i see as the answer. Say I'm level 3, I shouldn't be able to go into a place that is intended for level 13's. You see where I'm coming from? What's your guys' opinions on this?
lun, 12/13/2010 - 08:51
#47
I stick to my opinion that
I stick to my opinion that limiting isn't a very good solution :P I'd rather see the option to skip ahead available, but with some strings attached to it.
lun, 12/13/2010 - 14:34
#48
< sigh >. When I say it would
< sigh >. When I say it would take me three hours, I mean it.
I did not misunderstand your point. I understood it, I disagree with it.
It should not, under any circumstance, be possible to go directly from Tier 0 to Tier [THE BEST], especially when it involves totally unfair methods. A common misconception I'm seeing here is that things simply being expensive is a solution.
What I said was:
If you do not have a meaningful player economy, than rarity is a valid counter -- things can be made rare, such that you cannot get best_gear because it's not available. If there is a meaningful player economy, then rarity doesn't exist -- stuff is available for the right price, and expensive both exists and can be handled by selling real life cash for coin.
The assumption that this is wrong is a bad assumption.
A game design based around the assumption of "Game coin will be restricted; you will be poor, and unable to afford all the choices you are presented with" is a classic RPG game design, and it fails utterly with an exchange system. This isn't new to Three Rings: several years ago I wrote a paper about the doubloon exchange in YPP and how it would affect game design, and this point was addressed. In the discussion with other players over there, a bad assumption on my part was discovered, one that I still cannot answer. You cannot assume that buying game coin is a bad, wrong, or imbalanced move . Some people will. For some, it is a desire to avoid the early game that will play differently than the end game. For others, it is a lack of time to play the whole game.
> Isn't the goal of your in-game character more or less the same as yours? You're playing the game for fun, yes. But you're not grinding that little tad for no reason. You wish to make progress in the game. What's making progress without a goal to reach? Nothing. So you need a goal, which in our case is The Core. If you disagree, I challenge you to play SK without going to the core ever, since the levels closer to the surface should (according to you) suffice for enough entertainment!
My goal while playing is to have fun.
My goal is to kill stuff and make my equipment better.
Until recently, my method was to work my unheated stuff on easier turf, so I could handle the area that expects me to be at 8-10 heat. Now I've learned that this doesn't work -- I can't work at earlier, easier stuff because the earlier stuff is now harder with the colder, higher-star items.
If I say my goal is to take the island, err, reach the core, then what happens once I've made it? Game over. Loss of interest. Been there, seen that in YPP. My goal in YPP is to have fun in sea battle. The horrendous difficulty in doing that has resulted in my playing YPP less and less; now I'm pretty much only logging in to tend to one shop, and see if anyone wants to play hearts or spades. Sea battle is all but dead.
I have never been to the core. I have not been below emberlight since the "This is intended to be raid level stuff now" patch. I do see how things scale, and if I see "Level type X is harder than level type Y from Haven to emberlight", then it's reasonable to conclude that it is probably harder below emberlight as well.
> Every game that has a currency allows players to start off with a lot of in-game coin, be it through 3rd party offers or in-game mechanisms. (unless of course you want a game with player-bound coin?) This thread doesn't state that as a problem, it states the range of in-game content you can reach solely off that easily acquired in-game coin as the problem.
It isn't a problem! .
So you have a game design that lets people buy 5 star, 1 heat stuff on day one. Fine. They have 5 star, one heat items. They can join a party one level from emberlight, and then get an emberlight pass and play in the deeps. Fine.
You seem to feel that this is a bad design.
I don't.
It is no different than a zero-star, 4 heat person just out of rescue camp joining a party at the final elevator to the core.
That is inherent in the design of the game.
That is this game.
@Chronus: ... thus the need for NPCs will be replaced by the amount of items in circulation because of the huge player base. Therefore it will be just as easy for players with a load of Crowns/CE to get their hands on the same stuff that is for sale now.
If you have a large number of players, and no NPC's selling stuff, just players selling stuff, then you are back to the question of, "Do you have a meaningful player economy?".
Just having the ability for two people to make a trade does not suffice.
Having an auction house, a market place, the ability to post buy and sell offers, the ability to say "Our shop has the best collection of recipes -- bring your parts, buy some surplus from us as needed, supply the energy, and we'll supply the recipes for the machines" -- that becomes a great player economy.
If the only way to get high-end items is by alchemizing heated almost high end items, then the supply will be rare. If the only way to buy them is to find the person with them yourself, and make a trade, then the inconvenience factor will contribute to rarity.
How much of the game do you want to be designed around "Lets make it hard for the players to have meaningful economic interactions"? How much around "Lets make economic interactions easy"?
===
If you want to make "Top of the line" equipment hard to get, then the top gear should require heat to become good. You know, 5 star, one heat stuff that starts off worse than 3 star, 10 heat gear? But to really do that, you have to have this weak 5 star cold gear run at shallower, easier depths -- but then people complain about the lack of progress because of the heat costs to improve and the new "5 star gear will stink unless you are deep down" patch.
Read that again. And again.
If you don't want people to just buy the best gear, then 5 star cold gear must be worse than 4 star hot gear -- probably around 3 star hot gear. It has to be able to level up significantly in the 3 star zone, and it has to be playable there. That means running in the moorcroft to emberlight area. That means that the whole payout balancing, and leveling cost system needs to be re-examined -- the almost exponentially increasing rewards for lower depths as a balance for the almost exponentially increasing costs is a broken design.
Is this point clearer now?
lun, 12/13/2010 - 14:59
#49
Let me see if I can't make it
Let me see if I can't make it simpler:
Right now, a zero star person can tag along with a 4- or 5-star party in tier 3, and earn large amounts of crowns and heat just for being there. They can do this and "level up" quickly, without doing anything but surviving and avoiding damage. If they buy higher-end equipment, they can just carry it in, and get it hot at relatively little risk for the leveling/heating.
In traditional games, this would be earning experience from being part of the party; this is the classic D&D approach. Contrast the more modern view of "gain experience based on damage (or kills) done" -- being in a party no longer counts, but doing damage does.
The simplest question is: Should you only gain experience for your own actions, or should you gain experience for being in the group that does X -- does being there, watching, and seeing count as experience, or does only being the one with the kill shot / damage done count?
And yes, I've actually been in a party where the mage with a D4 dart finally got the killing blow in, and the majority of the experience for the defeat of a monster. The game gave absolutely no validity of any kind for the change from (if I recall correctly) iron to flesh (two steps) that even allowed us to hurt it (went from AC -10 to AC 2).
In other words, in that game, the only reason we survived were two spells from the Mage that allowed us to win. And yet the XP award had nothing to do with that. If the mage hadn't gotten that dart in, the rewards to the mage would have been next to nil.
Does being in the party count?
Does being a "storage mule" to hold a few more vials count?
Does having a spare health bar to res someone back up count?
Does being there, being exposed to the creatures, seeing how the experienced people handle things, and learning by watching and being in the environment count?
Or is the only thing that matters is who gets the killing blow? Who does how much damage?
Is there a design flaw with "I'm straight out of rescue camp, I'm joining an emberlight-core run to get equipment drops that I don't have to purchase, and free heat/crowns as long as I stay alive"?
Is there a design flaw with a design that encourages this -- it's extra minerals for the other players, more vial storage, and if the mule does die, you get extra heat for [s]beating[/s] reviving the dead dude?
Buying gear with RL cash on day one is trivial in comparison.
The concern of "Look what content you can access on day one with cash" is trivial in comparison to the content you can access on day one without cash. Same content, actual game design to encourage this, no significant reason not to, the only restriction really is: Did you find a guild that recognizes how this is a win/win for everyone and encourages this behavior?
lun, 12/13/2010 - 15:09
#50
Another take.
As an idea:
Making more items available via alchemy only, which has been addressed recently.
With the most recent patch, more high-level equipment has become available through alchemy alone. PERFECT. This forces us all to work our way up through different weapon levels nowadays. Let's take Calibur as a example. To get to Ascended Calibur now, we have to level the Calibur to level 5, then attain various materials including a Silver Spiral [or something similar], to upgrade it to Tempered Calibur. From here, you have to upgrade it to Ascended Calibur via the same system. PERFECT.
The progressions required stops it from being an instant thing. But it's not slow either. It feels like real progression.
So, perhaps the system is sorted now. Only time will tell.
Well, we have three tiers.
0-1 star, 2-3 star, and 4-5 star.
These correspond with Haven-Moorcroft; Moorcroft-Emberlight; Emberlight-The Core
So perhaps something similar but based on those star level ranges.
But what happens if you can easily complete Haven-Moorcroft, and want a challenge. But you have to wait til you have to level to get that piece of armour/weapon that would let you do that?
You get annoyed =/
So, I vote it stays as is is, personally, for my sanity ^^