On Irontech Bomb and Irontech Destroyer (and Nitro and BAB)
Fr, 12/14/2012 - 19:18
Here's a DPS chart as collected in Guild Training Hall.
I see a lot of misconceptions go around about this bomb. Today I made a Destroyer and heated it all the way to level 10. This is what the bombing guide says about irontech:
"The Irontech Destroyer deals a mid range damage (with Nitro dealing less, and BAB dealing more) bomb, with the same radius as the other blast bombs. The destroyer has a slowed walking speed while charging, and a slow fuse. The bomb is quite mediocre in that it isn't really possible to spam it like Nitronome and doesn't deal excessively large knock-back as the BAB does. Really it is a collectors item and a player is better off with the Big Angry Bomb or Nitronome."
You ask the average player about Irontech, they'll tell you something to the effect of the last couple of sentences there. Why? Because the average player has never even seen one and got all their info on Irontech from there. I'll just lay down the facts I found out researching this bomb, comparing it to every other bomb I have (all but three shard bombs) and doing some research in the Elite Bomber topic:
Charge time
Bombs have two distinct charge times. Let's call them Fast and Slow. There used to be a third charge time, Super Agonizingly Uselessly Slow reserved for only Ionized Salt Bomb, but ISB got reworked so it's gone. All bombs in the same category charge at the exact same speed given the exact same CTR, and most bombs are fast. The ones going slow are haze bombs and BAB. Notice the absence of Irontech. This is because Irontech is in the Fast charge time category.
Let me restate that last one, because this is the part everyone overlooks about Irontech:
Irontechs Bomb and Destroyer do more damage and knockback than Nitronome while still charging just as fast.
Damage, you say?
A quick damage table, as collected in Guild Training Hall, Tier 3:
Nitro: 214, 227, 241, 254, 268, 291, 295
Iron D : 239, 254, 268, 282, 297, 311, 326
BAB: 264, 280, 295, 311, 326, 342, 357
Bonuses go None, Low, Med, High, VH, Ultra, Max
I can't be buggered calculating DPS but since Iron charges as fast as Nitro, it should be slightly higher.
What about knockback?
This one's a bit harder to turn into reproducible numbers, but I'll try on these shufflebots.
-Nitro seems to knock the shufflies about half the room. A tiny bit more. I'd estimate it at 4-5 tiles.
-Irontech goes just a little bit further. About 6?
-BAB knocks them clear across the room. Diagonally. I'm pretty sure they'd go further still if there was more room. The room is at least 8x8.
And walking speed?
Again, there are only two walking speeds for bomb charging. We'll just call them Fast and Slow again. Most bombs are fast, the bombs using Slow are:
-Vortex lines
-Irontech
-Big Angry
Speed is same for Irontech and Big Angry but with vortex and irontech you can place your payload faster.
And the dreaded fuse time?
Fuse times seems to come in a much larger variety. There is much more science to be done here than I have the necessary equipment for. However, from eyeballing them next to eachother, Irontech and Big Angry appear to have the same fuse time. Fehzor insisted there was a difference, but I couldn't see it.
A point of note is that Irontech Bomb has a shorter fuse time than Irontech Destroyer. I find this crucial because the jump in damage from Bomb to Destroyer is pretty pitiful. I will conduct some more detailed studies later, but I think at heat level 10 with max damage bonus, Irontech Bomb did 311 damage on the GTH training dummies. Combine this with the fact that Irontech Bomb has the exact same blast radius as the 5* bombs do, the conclusion of my sciencing goes a little like this:
Nitro:
-Fast walk
-Fast charge
-Fast fuse
-Low knockback
-4th in damage
Irontech Bomb (4*):
-Slow walk
-Fast charge
-Slower fuse
-Medium knockback
-3rd in damage
-Fair chance of causing Minor Stun
Irontech Destroyer:
-Slow walk
-Fast charge
-Slowest fuse
-Medium knockback
-2nd in damage (but not by much) (Possibly 1st in DPS?)
-Fair chance of causing Minor Stun
Big Angry Bomb:
-Slow walk
-Slow charge
-Slowest fuse
-Preposterous knockback
-1st in damage (but not necessarily DPS!)
-Fair chance of causing Minor Stun
I think getting Irontech Bomb and stopping there is a nice, cheap alternative to getting a nitronome, provided you can deal with the walkspeed. The 4* Irontech Bomb is so good that I find it hard to recommend upgrading it.
Sa, 12/15/2012 - 02:28
#2
Lugnuts
and here I was gonna do this study... and you go and do it for me...
Now what's left to do?
Spam shardbombs alongside my guildmates all over t3 LD?
...
...
...
Brainwave... I'll be back with failblog relatable content later.
Sa, 12/15/2012 - 02:41
#3
At some stage we really do
At some stage we really do need some actual data on fuse speeds. Eek's did a bit but there's still so little data on it overall, which is pretty crazy considering it's also the biggest variable bombs have. It'd also be interesting to see if the "speed" bar in the tooltip for bombs actually correlates to their fuses.
Anyway, this is facinating data. Given the Dark Thorn Blade used to be better than Barbarous, I'm tempted to say this is a similar mistake on Three Rings' part except since nobody uses these bombs it's managed to go unnoticed for so long. As for the dps tally, it's difficult to analyze dps on knockback weapons anyway although logically speaking the Nitro should still have higher dps between the fuse speed and the fact monsters don't take as long to get back within the raidus (It may well be a different story, assuming monsters grouped into a corner for chaining purposes).
Sa, 12/15/2012 - 02:59
#4
But what else would we do with the bombs?
I've actually seen a Heavy Deconstructor get used.... ONCE. Irontech I've only seen youtube of....
I think Zed took the time to go on a chain spree with the monsters in order to get dps tallies, as that's kinda the only way the most reliable dps will be made with these particular bombs. (Do we really wanna take the amount of time to go out and average out the time it takes to chase the suckers we're sending 5 miles into walls and not so much so doing in order to get a more "accurate" number? Methinks not...)
As to the reasoning behind the 4* v. 5* aspect... I think you're on the money there Echoez. I mean look at all the revisions on "mainstream" gear... surely there can't be a diamond in the rough out there.... /endsarcasm reguarding OOO fixing
Logically in more practical applications, the nitro should be better for all around situations... but there's just something special to some bombers about KB that they might just go for the Irontech having these numbers readily available. I do however expect a patch coming regarding the Irontech numbers now that somebody has brought it to the attention of the bombing community of SK.
Unfortunately about the fuse time analysis... Echoez, I think that's reaching a touch and a half for help that's not there as much as we'd like... I don't mean to say it's not nice to ask... I'm just saying getting hopes up are about 1:50k on my end for them. Especially with some not-so-recent moves on the bombing community at large against a shrapnel bomb that wasn't working according to design, and just appears to have gotten scrapped altogether after an attempt at a replacement that has thus far left us wanting.
[/end butthurt over stupid past mistakes]
I'd love to see a few edits in the future to change up the differences in the blast bombs available to us... after all there's still a heavy deconstructor gathering dust in many arsenals. And potentially a return of a lost shrapnel bomb that many bombers have already made attempts at recreating to work to par for the devs. (Just give us an actual yes or no if you could pls)
Sa, 12/15/2012 - 03:37
#5
Yep.
This is probably the weapon most people are wrong about. Barely anyone uses this weapon, so barely anyone knows anything about it. Whoever put that info into the wiki is most likely biased against it. My friend found one in a treasure box, and he said it was great. I guess this is just one of those underdog weapons.
About the fuse, it may be to let more mobs back into the radius before going off. That or it's bugged.
Sa, 12/15/2012 - 05:29
#6
@Odinthefather
"About the fuse, it may be to let more mobs back into the radius before going off."
Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way. Two Irontech Bombs are going to explode in the same distance of eachother as two Irontech Destroyers because charge time is the deciding factor in that.
@Skold-The-Drac
"I do however expect a patch coming regarding the Irontech numbers now that somebody has brought it to the attention of the bombing community of SK."
I recall someone pointing out the viability of stopping at 4* Irontech during the test server for it, so I wouldn't hold my breath.
I wouldn't hold my breath for the bombing community to start going for Irontechs either but hey.
Sa, 12/15/2012 - 05:24
#7
@Zeddy
I meant for standing in generally the same spot, for defensive purposes, not trying to chain the bomb. But now that I think about it again... :/ Idk, would need some testing.
Sa, 12/15/2012 - 05:30
#8
@Odinthefather
When I say "chaining", I just mean placing the bomb in succession. Location doesn't really play into it.
Sa, 12/15/2012 - 05:54
#9
Bombing Guide
"Saving 700ce" should be saving 800ce and 30kcr. Otherwise it's good.
Sa, 12/15/2012 - 06:15
#10
I actually edited that to just "CE" and added some hazards to look more professional-like but those edits apparently don't show for anyone but me? Is there some kind of spam flood limit thing on the wiki?
Sa, 12/15/2012 - 11:22
#11
In my experience the most
In my experience the most recent edits on the wiki don't show up to people who are logged out.
So, 12/16/2012 - 00:24
#12
this is fascinating. i shall
this is fascinating. i shall think again about making my irontech 5*. initially i made both irontech 4* and BAB and found their fuse times to be very similar about 8 months ago, so i dropped the irontech. if it can hit harder and explode as fast as the nitro, i'd be thrilled to replace my nitro with a practical yet hipster weapon!
So, 12/16/2012 - 02:24
#13
I have irontech and it's in
I have irontech and it's in my loadouts that I use for pvp. :D I find it fun to use but it's a bit harder and takes a bit more planning.
So, 12/16/2012 - 03:53
#14
^ That's pretty much the gist of it.
Honestly, I don't get people who will happily equip full mad bomber into FSC but still instantly dismiss Irontech.
Mo, 12/17/2012 - 04:30
#15
Correct me if I'm wrong, but
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Irontech have a smaller radius than BAB and Nitro? Or did they change that as well?
Because if so then while Irontech might be better on smaller groups, BAB & Nitro would have a higher potential damage against truly massive groups of foes.
Starting to wish this thread had been around before I prepared to craft a BAB because now I can't help but wonder if I made the right choice >.<
Mo, 12/17/2012 - 04:37
#16
I will NEVER endorse using
I will NEVER endorse using mad bomber. The only thing going for it is max charge and damage.... but when you are on fire, stunned, shocked, frozen, poisoned... you are on that status for the full length of time. It's awful.
I think bab and irontech has the same radius now, but i'm not positive.
Mo, 12/17/2012 - 04:38
#17
After The Great Shard Nerf, Irontech and BAB got their radius upped to that of Nitro.
Not only does Irontech Destroyer have the radius of Nitronome, but Irontech Bomb does too.
Mo, 12/17/2012 - 04:59
#18
Well...
Definitely feeling a bit stupid for choosing to craft a BAB and not an Irontech now, though I suppose it's a moot point since I barely ever use Blast Bombs anymore anyway.
@Tokinjen: I'd hardly call having twice the bonuses of every other offensive set (besides the OCH Masks) a "just" sort of thing.
EDIT: Is the wiki wrong then? Because it lists the Irontech Bomb as doing 200-206 damage while it lists Nitro as doing 217-230
Mo, 12/17/2012 - 05:30
#19
@Verodius
My numbers are with max damage bonus.
Mo, 12/17/2012 - 05:43
#20
I know, but here is the
I know, but here is the Stratum 6 damage each bomb is listed as doing on the wiki (I've averaged out the damage here)
Irontech Bomb: 203
Nitronome: 223
BAB: 249
Irontech Destroyer: 251
Now with Max Damage bonuses those work out to roughly:
Irontech Bomb: 288
Nitronome: 317
BAB: 354
Irontech Destroyer: 357
So by these numbers the Irontech bomb would be worse than Nitro and Irontech Destroyer would be a significant upgrade to it, which conflicts with what you've said.
Mo, 12/17/2012 - 06:04
#21
If I were to guess, the wiki numbers haven't been updated since the universal damage buff for bombs and guns.
You'll notice that BAB is also shown as having less damage than destroyer, which it does not. It also shows the radius for Irontech Bomb wrong.
Mo, 12/17/2012 - 08:51
#22
Out of boredom...
I did some number crunching with the Damage values you provided and if my calculations are correct then (assuming Max Damage & CTR) the DPS of each bomb works out to be:
Big Angry Bomb: 203 DPS
Nitronome: 241 DPS
Irontech Bomb: 254 DPS
Irontech Destroyer: 266 DPS
(results rounded to the nearest whole number, this doesn't account for fuse times, just how fast the bombs can be charged & placed)
So the DPS isn't that much higher, it's more a question of whether you value a bit of extra Damage & the ability to inflict Stun over Move & Fuse speed.
Mo, 12/17/2012 - 10:52
#23
Inspired by Verodius' number-crunching, I went ahead and crunched some of my own.
DPS using Nitronome and ...
...full Volcanic (CTR MAX): 174
...full Bombtastic (CTR Med, Damage VH): 144
...full Mad Bomber (CTR MAX, Damage VH): 218
...full Spiral Demo (CTR VH): 138
DPS using Irontech Destroyer and ...
...full Volcanic (CTR MAX): 195
...full Bombtastic (CTR Med, Damage VH): 157
...full Mad Bomber (CTR MAX, Damage VH): 242
...full Spiral Demo (CTR VH): 154
DPS using Big Angry and ...
...full Volcanic (CTR MAX): 150
...full Bombtastic (CTR Med, Damage VH): 120
...full Mad Bomber (CTR MAX, Damage VH): 185
...full Spiral Demo (CTR VH): 118
It's not looking very good for Bombtastic, here. In fact, given the choice I think I'd stick to spiral demo just because less than VH CTR is kind of painful. When I get home, I'll do some science on other bombs to see if any of them put Bombtastic in a more favourable light.
Mo, 12/17/2012 - 12:03
#24
@Pandabear
I can add the Mercurial Demo (CTR Med, Damage Med) dps to that list of yours, if these figures are accurate:
Mercurial & Nitronome: 128 DPS
Mercurial & Irontech Destroyer: 140 DPS
Mercurial & Big Angry Bomb: 107 DPS
Di, 12/18/2012 - 16:37
#25
^(that's a DPS chart for all the 5* bombs, plus deconstructor, as collected in Guild Training Hall Tier 3)
Di, 12/18/2012 - 20:20
#26
Zeddy, Why you so nuts?
Anyway, yeah, what you say is definitely interesting. And also proves that THE WIKI SUCKS AND I WOULD FIX IT IF I COULD. Doesn't even have damage numbers for Magnus past stratum 1. Anyway, I'm picking up a few bombs today, to play with em, so I can stop being a total swordie.
Might play around with a couple blast bombs once I get 4* armor
Di, 12/18/2012 - 21:41
#27
-
if you get the numbers you can post them in the wiki editors board and people will update it. Or you can make another account to update it with.
Di, 12/18/2012 - 23:10
#28
Yeah I'll call it JUST sort
Yeah I'll call it JUST sort of thing... because if you can't charge your bomb because of the ticks then well... max charge doesn't all matter. And then if you can't charge your bomb to use your bomb... max damage don't matter either.
I swear if I hear... just don't get hit... i will spank you. lol. Having a laggy computer and "not getting hit" just doesn't go together.
Di, 12/25/2012 - 14:29
#29
So if I'm reading this thread
So if I'm reading this thread correctly, fuse times don't come in categories. Each bomb has a different fuse time, even between star versions in the same alchemy line i.e. irontech bomb to destroyer?
Di, 12/25/2012 - 18:09
#30
@Aiden-Curry-Puff
That's entirely correct. Bomb is just a little faster than Destroyer in terms of fuse time. I think fuse time for each of the bombs in the blast bomb line might be slightly different, too.
Mi, 12/26/2012 - 23:52
#31
What are you smoking?
Today I made a Bomb and did extensive testing alongside my Big Angry and a buddy with a Nitronome.
Using the numbers provided inside of your sheet, we have without a doubt, found that in NO way can the destroyer be charged as fast as a Nitronome.
With only 1 level higher CTR, my Big Angry Bomb was charging at the same pace as my Irontech.
Either something got changed, or you're all seriously wrong.
Either way I really don't like this bomb, it makes me feel really unsafe; I'll stick with my BAB.
Note: It was VISIBLY slower. No numbers even needed.
Do, 12/27/2012 - 06:20
#32
@Codenemesis
I have used Irontech extensively, and I can assure you it charges just as fast as Nitro. It should take three charge levels for their charge times to even be similar to BAB. Are you entirely sure you had the charge bonuses right? No UVs or anything?
Are you sure you're not mistaking fuse time for charge time?
Do, 12/27/2012 - 06:31
#33
Got to ask something
How so these bombs work in LD then?
Do, 12/27/2012 - 09:09
#34
@Hawxindanite
If you have assistance, they perform a little better than nitro mostly due to the stun. Having two bombs out at once due to the long fuse time adds a scare factor that seems to make people less likely that attack than if I had a Nitro, but I encountered an interesting problem fighting a dual-penta striker:
The striker dashed in between explosions and laid a hit on me with his toothpick, paying no mind to the damage of my irontechs on him. I was recon with merc demo, a damage trinket and a wyrmwood bracelet, he was a dual-penta striker. I would die first. If I had a Nitronome in this situation, I would've had a chance at avoiding his attacks, but Irontech slows you down too much for me to be able to recommend it as your exclusive blast bomb.
I made Big Angry a while ago just for the derps and knockback, before the buff to blast radius and the addition of stun.
It still has the same problem as Nitronome with shaking the screen. No other bombs do that except Blast lines. We get the whole Blast tree is supposed to explode all the things, but when it quakes every couple seconds for everyone in the party with only one person using it they can get obnoxious.
I think people will still prefer Nitronome for its better mobility while charging, fast fuse, and the mission mainstream gives you its recipes for free. Blast lines are great while soloing to get through whatever tickles your nip- I mean fancy, but in parties chances are people do not want their screen to experience being injected with three shots of heroin.
I should start using my old Big Angry again. I remember its butt clenching knockback but I always feel guilty using it in parties when I can tell it messes them up. Maybe I should do it anyway. Have you seen some of the players around here? Some deserve it. The problem is innocent little Timmy Tum Tums struggling with nervousness when I suddenly rock their world a few too many times.