Spiral Knights - Stage Blueprints - New Content by players

Stage Blueprints - New Content by players

65 replies [Last post]

Wed, 02/20/2013 - 08:57

El-Odio

After a several month of not-giving-a-damn, I have returned to finish one thing I suggested. Because I still believe it will be the future and redemption this game needs.

Anyone who remembers this thread?
We're going to revisit it by literally doing all of the concept work.

First, we're going to start with the rough work. What's it going to look like, what can you do?

Theme selection: Firestorm Citadel, Factory, Concrete Jungle, Candlestick Keep, Aurora Isles, Dark City, Gloaming Wildwoods, etc...; Sub-Selection: Tile colour (Grass and Earth Tiles in Aurora Isles for example)
Object selection: Blocks, Grass, Candles, Crates, etc....
Wave/Group selection: Activationtiles for groups or waves; Sub-Selection: Monsters

Keeping it simple.
To give you an idea how a build with this would look like, I'll recreate a well known one:

The difference between a group and a wave is that a group has it's own reason to spawn, as seen above, whereas a wave is activated once and will spawn additional monsters after the current wave has been beaten.

Next, let's talk about finances.
How will this be paid for? Crowns and Materials - there's a story to it, but about that we'll talk later.
The initial map grit will be 100x100 which would be the greatest map there currently is. The thing about it, is that you only pay for each tile. A price of 150Cr a tile would be adequat in my eyes.

Objects, like crates and Candels and stuff, would cost shards without regard to it's colour, ranging from 1 to 3 depending on the type. Let's go with 1 Shard for unbreakable and breakable blocks and crates, and 2 for buttons and ghost blocks.

Monsters however would be paid for differently: "Construction cost" - what it takes to build a monster.
Examples:

Red Rover: 2 Scrap Metals, 1 Fuel Canister, 1 Flame Soul
Slag Walker: 1 Ecto Drop, 1 Blighted Bone, 1 Flame Soul
Trojan (T1): 1 Swordstone, 1 Phial of Phear, 1 Trojan Horseshoe

All in all the room I showed you would cost:
32250 Crowns, 111 Shards, 12 Scrap Metals, 6 Fuel Canisters, 18 Flame Souls, 12 Ecto Drops, 12 Blighted Bones, 1 Swordstone, 1 Phial of Phear, 1 Trojan Horseshoe
That's quite something for one room.

Ok, to the details on how a room is "chosen": It is paid for in Crowns. Not just any amount, though, but 1.000.000 Crowns. Now you're gonna say "Eeeeh, but El-Odio, ain't nobody got crowns for that!"
And you're right. That's why the maker doesn't have to bear this burden alone. Everyone will be able to test the room (how that will look, I will tell you later) and afterwards offered to donate to this Blueprint. The first time I said this term in this post, despite it being the titel. Funny, huh?

Well, to the story aspect. How the hell does it make sense that the Knights themselfs design deathtraps that are meant to hinder their exploration?
It doesn't. That's why they don't. Blueprints! You are not "really" designing the stages, you are looking at the Blueprints a shady Gremlin "sells" you in Emberlight. The "fee" to take a look at a finished Blueprint is the price to build it. Hence, you are financing their project in order to gain the knowlegde about what they are up to. There's the story to crowns and materials.
After you finished building it you might want to play it, just to get a feel how it works. All the monsters would be set to passive and not drop anything. Also, it won't be the player to test the room, but a Mechaknight. Because why the hell would they have a Knight wander around in one of their factories?
The fact, that this shady Gremlin lives in Emberlight, would prevent low level Players from creating any rooms, for reasons I'll explain later.

But how will others test and donate?
The answer is a cute little gremlin "outcast" who chose to travel to haven to "prevent" the gremlins from creating their evil rooms. He'll have a bunch of Blueprints and even shows you "footage of a mechaknight testing it" (i.e. the player talking to him) and then asks you to donate, so the gremlins can bribe the headarchitect to "lose" the Blueprint. In reality he's an agent to collect money for new rooms. However, this way everyone can help finance a room which eventually will hit the 1 Mil, after which it will be suggested to OOO. The they can decide if it is against any of the guidelines (penis-shaped, money grabbing or whatever) and then put it in the curriculum.
The 1 Million is to prevent them from having to judge more than 1 room a week. We know they need their time.

Ok, until now it's all fun and games, but OOO wants our money and there's not much money to be made here. Yet.
Why does the Blueprint seller have to be in Emberlight? Why shouldn't small ones create rooms?
- Because you can save only one room per player.
How can they make money with it?
- Slot expansion 2$ a each. Also excessiv grinding and more E-Packs to get all the crowns. Also quadrillion new players to milk.
Nothing else?
- What do I know? Boss sets for 5$?

Ok, that's that. Questions please with the Topic in the headline.

ADDITION: 21.02.
- Potential rooms get a "special list", i.e. if there has been invested more then 250.000 Crowns it will be "featured". "Featured" rooms would not take up the Players Blueprint space, so he can go on to design a new one.
- Difficulty categories: Designing a room for T1, T2, T3 or a Restroom (crates and boxes and stuff), offering different monsters and objects as well as giving a maximum capacity for them.
- Special categorie: "Puzzle rooms" always offer T1 monster, which would later on scale with the tier, and lays focus on.... well... solving puzzels. Example: Firestorm Citadel, many of the rooms where you have to move a statue. (Not all, but many.)

- Abandoned Blueprints: As one can only have one project at a time, low funded (hence, not featured) auctions always are in danger of just being cancelled. While I don't think it's too much of a problem, one can argue about a system, where you can "adopt" a Blueprint. Once abandoned, it stays 7 days in the system where a T3 Player can go ahead and "adopt" it. That way, even the low level ones could be saved.

ADDITION: 23.02.
- 1.000.000 Crowns could be switched for 10.000 minerals, which would fit in with the theme of "building" a stage. Personally I like it either way.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 08:29

El-Odio

F.A.Q.

Q: What if a room gets donations but clearly will never reach 1,000,000? Will people get their donations back?
A: No refunds on donations. After all, every player can donate for what he wants to see ingame, no one is forced to do it.

Q: What about rooms that are too easy? Shouldn't they be prevented somehow?
A: No need to prevent easy rooms, as they will sort themselfs out. People would have to be stupid to raise a Million Crowns for a room with 10 Boxes and nothing else. Also, many rooms are used in all Tiers, so a "minimum difficulty" wouldn't be necessary either. Even if it actually was easy and linear, say, a 3x50 lane with only Gremlin Knockers in it, that's fine. People will raise money towards what they want to play, so they should have that - as long as it is not against the rules. After all our main goal is to add variety, not to reinvent the wheel.

Q: What if you created a room, don't like it, and want to start making another one?
A: Projects can be "abandoned". Yes, you only have one slot at a time (except if you buy additional room from OOO), but you can always scrap the print and make something new.

Q: Why are the costs to even create a room this high?
A: The high costs are there to encourage working on the rooms. You won't start making a room and then say "Meh, that's expensive, I'll just make it smaller." If you pay for it, you want that room to count. The costs are meant to prevent inexpierenced players from creating too many rooms. It's a form of quality control.

Q: Will the Creation Menu look anything like the Guildhalls Design mode?
A: Given that you would need to create the floor and move up to hundred objects you could not do it with the Guildhall designer. You'd need something that looks like what I made up there. Only the concept of course, but none the less. It has to offer the freedom of actually creating, rather than adding interior to a room. Think about it: you'd have to "plant" monsters, choose which tiles activate them, keep track of where what is, build walls, hide monsters beneath blocks... etc. I'd prefer it ingame, but if all else fails, it can be out of game.

Q: Does this idea include whole levels or just single rooms?
A: While this idea is aimed at single rooms, whole levels are manageable as well, as they are basically just rooms added together. Imagine this only with rooms instead of passages.

Q: Why do you want to restrict players to a single room?
A: There are various reason. First, they are still cheap. While the cost may look high, they are still more than manageable for most of the veterans, at which this content is aimed. It wouldn't be to much a problem to make more than one in a short time - which leads us to second, there being far to many players for the small team of OOO to handle. Let's say 500 people make 1 room, which I find more than believable, that makes 500 rooms that can be tested, viewed, donated - and have to be saved somewhere. So let's say everyone can make 5 rooms if they want. That would be 2500 rooms that need to be saved somewhere. That you would have to browse through. Imagine it. 2500 rooms, if only 500 people decide to make some. Even with 3 rooms there would be far, far to many when every player makes one. As I am writing this I am even thinking of suggesting an even higher creation cost for tiles and monsters, realizing how vast the number of created rooms could become.

Wed, 02/20/2013 - 14:30

Klipik

YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYES!

...x1000 :3

This.
Is.
An.
Amazing.
Idea.

OOO! Put this in already! It's been suggested at least 3 or four times, each in great detail and each has received a lot of support. Plus, it gives your game new content you don't even have to pay to develop! And you get to involve your playerbase more! And you get a bunch of new players! You could even optionally attach it to steam workshop, and get even more players! And level design would be better! And you could use them to create levels of your own, too!

TL;DR: +1. If I can, +∞.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 03:44

Raptorsevens

Great idea. Now I really want

Great idea.
Now I really want those 2 other 4-star items.
Anyhow, what if a room gets donations but clearly will never reach 1,000,000? Will people get their donations back?

And an idea to prevent too easy rooms:
Have a little "difficulty" bar, which decreases when you place gift boxes and heart boxes and increases when you place monsters and death traps. It has to pass a certain treshold, depending on which tier it's in, to be viable.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 05:12

El-Odio

@ Raptorsevens

1) No refunds on donations. After all, every player can donate for what he wants to see ingame, no one is forced to do it.

2) No need to prevent easy rooms, as they will sort themselfs out. People would have to be stupid to raise a Million Crowns for a room with 10 Boxes and nothing else. Also, many rooms are used in all Tiers, so a "minimum difficulty" wouldn't be necessary either. Even if it actually was easy and linear, say, a 3x50 lane with only Gremlin Knockers in it, that's fine. People will raise money towards what they want to play, so they should have that - as long as it is not against the rules. After all our main goal is to add variety, not to reinvent the wheel.

Yet you gave me two ideas, which will be added to the end of the OP.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 11:49

Softhead

Could this be used with something similar to Designer Mode?

So Guilds could chip in.

Infact.

Look up Happyapathy's tumblr. Look at the Compound Modules.

I'm working on CW rooms, so If i can, I can re make stuff.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 16:29

Dmatter

1 your for your entire game

1 for your for your entire game seems a bit small. It costs so much just to make a decent room, not many people will participate because of this. Also, there will be quite a few people who make a small room to just try it out and than find that they can't do any more. How about one a week at max? +1 for player content -1/2 for the restrictions.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 15:02

El-Odio

Softhead would need to elaborate

@ Softhead:
How should guilds chip in? Do you mean there to be a station in the guild halls to do this? What do you mean by "re make stuff"?

@ Dmatter:
- As stated, projects can be "abandoned". Yes, you only have one slot at a time (except if you buy additional room from OOO), but you can always scrap the print and make something new.
- The high costs are to encourage working on the rooms. You won't start making a room for and then say "Meh, that's expensive, I'll just make it smaller." If you pay for it, you want that room to count. The costs are meant to prevent what you are asking for: Newbs spamming rooms. It's a form of quality control.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 15:20

Klipik

"1 your for your entire game""

What?

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 15:25

Softhead

I meant as in if you use the Designer Mode,

The guildies help with the design.

Also, i mean, I make Rooms.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 15:51

#10

Klipik

How will the levels be designed, in an in-game design system like Guild Halls or an out-of-game thing like Spiralspy?

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 16:03

#11

El-Odio

@ Softhead

Aaaaah.... Maybe. I don't know if that would work, but I think it could be managable, even through it wouldn't look like with designing your guild.

@Klipnik
Given that you would need to create the floor and move up to hundred objects you could not do it with the Guildhall designer. You'd need something that looks like what I made up there. Only the concept of course, but none the less. It has to offer the freedom of actually creating, rather than adding interior to a room. Think about it, you'd have to "plant" monsters, choose which tiles activate them, keep track of where what is, build walls, hide monsters beneath blocks... etc. I'd prefer it ingame, but if all else fails, it can be out of game.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 16:36

#12

Klipik

Oh and for that other thing

You could have it be something like Google Drive, where multiple people could edit the same level at once.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 17:22

#13

Dmatter

@OP

Sorry, I didn't read carefully enough. I read that addition thing at the end of the op, and got confused and thought blueprints were abandoned after 7 days and then could be picked up to continue by someone else. I don't know *shrug*. Anyway, you should still think of lowering the prices SOMEWHAT. The "Why?" factor comes in here (I just made that thing up), why would the average individual who wants to make a area spend "32250 Crowns, 111 Shards, 12 Scrap Metals, 6 Fuel Canisters, 18 Flame Souls, 12 Ecto Drops, 12 Blighted Bones, 1 Swordstone, 1 Phial of Phear, 1 Trojan Horseshoe" (copy-pasta FTW) just for a Half-way decent room when he could use said stuff to get quite a lot of ce to use to other things? Not everyone who is t3 is rich and grinding vana, but this is what it seems to be leaning to. I agree that there needs to be a cost, but it seems ridiculously high at the moment.

Okay, enough of that (small) rant, I have a suggestion for this suggestion. I feel minerals should take a part of this somehow. After all, minerals power the colckworks, so they should be a part of this, right? I think THEY should be used to make the blocks instead of shards. Also, on a side note, if this gets implemented (which I hope it does, but with a few things more thought out) why not also double it as a clockworks reviver? Get rid of ALL minerals from missions, make them clockwork exclusive. That will revive the clockworks at least a little bit (unlessm of course, no one cares and then we have some blank stratums). That's it. You can stop reading. There is nothing of interest after this. I am just typing this to fill out the paragraph a bit more so it looks tidy. Bye.

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 14:21

#14

El-Odio

@Dmatter

I honestly see no point argueing with you over the prices, as they are just guidelines. However, I firmly believe that they HAVE to be expensive, as, in contrary to what you said, the 40 to 50k that would have to be invested all in all is still peanuts. The average T3 player can farm a 60k in one week without too much of a sweat. And as I already stated, there is a valid reason to try to prevent roomspamming. Making a room should be thought trough, not just made on a whim, as you want it to be.
You're "Why?" factor can be answerd with "Because they can". Sure you could get CE and stuff, but those guys get CE for fun, because there is nothing else worth their time. In addition, a great cost would help lower the CE prices for everyone else.

Short: No, low prices are a horrible idea and should under no circumstance be even considered.

Through I like the idea with financing a stage by donating a million Crowns, minerals seem like a good idea as well. Building a gate is boring anyways, so we could simply switch the "1.000.000 Crowns" with, I don't know, "10.000 Minerals". Hmm, doesn't sound to bad.

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 15:02

#15

Dealernextdoor

Absolute, pure, genius. +1

This is absolutely a great idea, and SK needs it. The fact that every level is the same, but re-arranged is a great way to make people hate this game and not want to play it anymore. But if more people like you were to exist and fix up game, SK would be no doubt become even better.

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 15:14

#16

Klipik

clarification

Can you create whole levels, or just rooms? Or can there be a separate system where you design preset levels (like Scarlet Fortress)?

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 07:30

#17

El-Odio

@ Klipik

Only rooms are planned to be manageable in this idea. BUT that doesn't mean, that it's not possible to design whole levels with this, as a simple extension could suffice:
Instead of just giving players one room to make, there could be up to ten or 20, which then again could be linked like in a puzzle and submitted as a whole level.

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 07:47

#18

Dragneel-Wiki

Unlikely to happen, and I really feel sorry for you. You are working hard, yet OOO won't implement this. They are making Pets! And after that, it is probably Dual Wielding! Bleh...

Whatever... here take my +1.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 08:39

#19

El-Odio

Per request: The Room Merger

As the question fpr guild involvement had turned up rather often, I came up with a little something that might make you happy:
Guildhall exclusive LEVEL-Editor.
But first things first
Q: Why does it have to be guildhall exclusive?
A: No knight can carry enough rooms to build an entire level, through it should be possible given the size of those rooms. However, not everyone will buy the slot-expansions, so we'll assume we're talking one room per knight.

The idea here would be pooling the rooms of all the knights into one selection screen, dividing them by theme.

Q: Why a level editor and not the same room creator as in Emberlight?
A: Because it wouldn't fit with the story. The Gremlins in Emberlight and Haven are tricking you, and it would not make sense to have a double-agent in your ranks. After all, if you keep him in your Guildhall you'd "get to know him as a person". He'd spent time with you and has access to everything in your Guildhall. You'd either notice his trickery or he'd have other things to do than "selling you maps".

Q: Then what is your idea?
A: Good that you ask! Something we really should have had sooner - a arcade questline.
First of, we need a Gremlin we can trust, so where do we look? Emberlight. To be more accurate, in a good distance to the "Mapseller", as he doesn't want to be associated with him. He'd tell you, that you are actually financing the maps you are looking at, and ask, if you'd continue to do so, even while knowing that. Upon telling him, that this knowledge is important, he'll ask you to solve certain puzzles to prove that you actually know what you are talking about. These puzzles would involve the clockworks rooms and probably be based around activating switches in a certain pattern. For example the FSC room in the armory with the four stone statues: "In the depth of hell save the four knights, first the one in the south-east, then the one in the north-west, the one in the south-west and the one in the north-east last." Meaning to first put the one on the switch in the bottom right corner, the the top left... and so on.
After having done a few of them he'll ask you to, I don't know, save his child that got lost in the clockworks? Something like that, where his child can spawn anywhere except on boss lanes (like the entire FSC) and had to be carried to the elevator. The trick to this would be, that he only appears when you are in a group with at least one guildmember.
Maybe you can throw in a few more quests to gain his trust, what do I know.

Q: Great, so I help a hobo, what does that help?
A: Turns out, he's a retired spy of Tinkinzar. Which is exactly what he can do for you, getting in there and messing stuff up. Which means, "offering you the possibility to arrange the maps to be more favorable. Nothing big, but you look like you'll need all the help you can get."
He gives you a little something to show that you actually gained his trust, upon which you'd be able to interact with him in the guildhall. Getting him into the guildhall would also be a perk of the bijou, as only those that have the permit can buy him a room for his operations into the guildhall, similar to the trainingroom. This room would only be possible to enter by those with the permit, as already said. Inside you'll find...
... Nothing! It will be pretty much a big and empty room with a bulky console on the other end, as well as a chunky maschine next to it. You could call it a room-dispenser. The room would be empty, so you could place the room-plates on the ground, spin them, carry them, just like with the Design mode, only that it would be active all the time in there.

Q: Wow, that's wicked awesome!
A: That's not a question, but thanks.

Q: So how are the implemented?
A: This is the one thing I still am undecided on. Personally I'd like it to be an addition to the plans in Haven, as it would make the most sense. However should they be more expensive, or not? I tend to a "no" as it would be quite enough if financed through minerals.

Q: How many levels can a guild create?
A: 1 level for every 10 members.

Q: Anything else to be mentioned?
A: YES!
I forgot one very important aspect to the creation of whole maps: Secret passages!
Sure, you can make a switch somewhere in a room and have ot open something in the same room, but the coolest things are those where you have no idea what they do until you stumple upon it five rooms later. So, how should this be handled? Make an entire Room-editor to be accessed from the Room Merger, so you can do so fine tuning?
NO.
Colours! And empty switches! And gates without switches! Monster groups without activation! Ok, I can see how that doesn't make sense to anyone but me. so here it goes:
In each room there can be 1 switch and/or gate without affiliation in the room. Those will be referred to as "empty" from now on, because they don't do anything. Don't argue, I am the thing-namer here. Ok, now we have a room with an empty gate and one with an empty switch. We place them on the maparea in the Room merger and can then access another part of the console at the end of the room, where all the places rooms will be displayed on the big-butt screen above it. There you can change the affiliation of the rooms if they have such switches by changing their colour on the screen, so they would be visible to everyone else in the room. This would over an actual use for a screen in this game and offer the ability to create incredibly complex maps with labyrinth-charakter.
Imagine this:
You enter a room, beat to groups of monsters, but the gate on your left does not open. You advance to rooms, find a switch that doesn't open anything you see. You advance and hit a dead End. You remember "Ah, the gate back there!" You go back and the room is filled to the brim with monsters - but the gate is open. TADA!
Goodness, just the thought makes me feel all tingly.

Tue, 03/12/2013 - 12:29

#20

Klipik

+1 to new idea also :D

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 01:43

#21

El-Odio

Thanks (not a push at all).

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 11:48

#22

Addisond

OOO is rather inactive in the SK realm, and I'd honestly kinda expect them to try and use the GH design thing for this to make sure it was impossible to get anything done. Soo yeah I'd like this to happen, but I don't expect it to.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 08:39

#23

El-Odio

I can't deny that it will be work, but it would be worth it. Regarding them using a GH Design Mode for this would pose difficult however, as it would be nearly impossible to incorporate such a thing into the story.

...HAHAHAHA, as if they'd care, it would probably be some Deus ex to justify that. Yeah... let's hope they don't do that.

Anyways, I've added a little paragraph to the Room Merger. I like that name, I'll use that as a titel. The paragraph starts after the bold "YES!".

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 10:43

#24

Firefistace

This is an amazing idea, it allows players to contribute to the game, it makes something for the end-game people to work towards, it gives OOO free work, and adds more content!

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 11:13

#25

Infernoburner

Derpuraptor strikes back

Let me do a plastic surgery on your suggestion:

I think one should be limited to 3 "Gates" consisting of their levels fully pre-made by the gate owner. Each gate would be made up of 5 levels, each independant of the current tier system, so you can have tier 3 damage in the first level, tier 2 in the last, and so on, and mixed. (The gate would be a new one in the Arcade to the right of dormant Gates. You would have the option to select the most popular gates to play (all of these options have a page system), most thumbed up gates, most favorited (Yes, this is a YouTube steal), the most recently made, by keywords, (regular search), or by author.
On the end of the said gate (Depth 6) would be a Core-like level: The Seal. More on that later.

Now about something I'd like to leave in your idea:
The rooms. That system would actually work, but keep the prices in 90-300k. We want to see originality, right? Not only levels from rich Richards and stuff. About the originality crap,

About The Seal level:
The level would be totally uneditable and like the Core Terminal, so there's only an elevator to Haven and a few NPC's. A big seal blocking the access below to the rest of the clockworks would stand in the way of the elevator. (Similar to the Core's seal, but is attached to big metal chains and there would be some circuits over it) A biotech or something would explain that these things have been popping all over the Clockworks now, but says that other gates should be fully accessible afterwhich the user goes back to Haven.

So yeah, my plastic surgery is done. Bon appetit!

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 12:37

#26

El-Odio

Something I can't stand

It's fine if you suggest changes to my idea, but it should at least try to make sense. Your "surgery" is more of a butchering, for I have absolutly no idea what you are even trying to tell me. Three gates? So you want to be capable to design 15(!) COMPLETE LEVES(!!!)? Are you bonkers?
What would be the purpoise of so many levels when you can not vote on independant rooms? The objective of this suggestion is first and foremost the creation of single rooms to randomly add to the clockwork.

The price for single Levels are not set. It's just my idea of what would be reasonable. Do you mean the price for creation to be raised or the necessary donations to chose a room for implementation to be lowered? If it is the first, then no, because 300.000 for creating one rooms is far to much. If it is the second, then no, because that would be far to cheap. The "Choosing" of a room is not a single persons endeavor, but something done by everyone on the server. The system is explained in the first post, if it was that what you meant.

I see no meaning in that. What would that Seal Level be good for?

I have no problem with additions, in fact, I endorse people to take interest in this, but I'd prefer it if they state what they would like to have in there, so we could think it through together to get better results.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:06

#27

Thunder-The-Bright

mmm.

ok, seen.
shouldn't rooms be created with minerals? and precisely, with the minerals you normally need for make certain monsters to appear?
like, you want a mecha knight. you need to pay the materials and the minerals. or it would be likely to just walk away.

@inferno: that is not plastic surgery, that is a five headed and fire breathing clone of this idea. yes, an hydra.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:52

#28

El-Odio

You're not creating the room, you are financing the blueprints. The actual building is done by donating either more crowns or minerals. It's all covered in the first post. ^^

On a side note, implementing minerals in the Blueprint-process would harm it's acessability: Funding a room can be done by anyone, however a blueprint can only be made by one person. This means if it is done with minerals he has to have the minerals - they can not be traded or bought. This might not be a problem for older players with abundant resources of never used minerals, but in reality they are hard to get and don't benefit the economy in any way. This however doubles as a crown sink while still making sense story-wise.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 15:21

#29

Super-Ratman

YES! I LOVE MAKING STUFF!

This is a great idea, and the story that goes along with it makes PERFECT Sense. Though I'd be kinda annoyed at the fact that I could only design ONE room, but what do I know? I don't fully understand the functionality of the free-to-play genre :)

Seriously though, only ONE room? >:(

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 20:57

#30

Klipik

Possible way around the one room thing

Make it so that any player can create infinite rooms, but they have to receive a certain amount of donation before they are presented to OOO. If they felt like it, OOO could also have a "Dev accelerate button" which would bump any map they liked into the dev consideration stage.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 09:27

#31

El-Odio

I already mentioned the One-Room-Policy in the first posts addition 21.02.:
"- Potential rooms get a "special list", i.e. if there has been invested more then 250.000 Crowns it will be "featured". "Featured" rooms would not take up the Players Blueprint space, so he can go on to design a new one."
As well as in the second post:
"Q: What if you created a room, don't like it, and want to start making another one?
A: Projects can be "abandoned". Yes, you only have one slot at a time (except if you buy additional room from OOO), but you can always scrap the print and make something new."
In short: You can "hold" one room at a time, but generally you can make as many as you like and can afford - only that you have to either make one that gets featured or that you have to scrap it and start over.

The Donation-System was in the original post under "how a room is "chosen"" and "But how will others test and donate?":
However, this way everyone can help finance a room which eventually will hit the 1 Mil, after which it will be suggested to OOO. The they can decide if it is against any of the guidelines (penis-shaped, money grabbing or whatever) and then put it in the curriculum.
The 1 Million is to prevent them from having to judge more than 1 room a week. We know they need their time.

I hope this helped you guys. Also, added a "Why only one room?" Q&A to the FAQ:
Q: Why do you want to restrict players to a single room?
A: There are various reason. First, they are still cheap. While the cost may look high, they are still more than manageable for most of the veterans, at which this content is aimed. It wouldn't be to much a problem to make more than one in a short time - which leads us to second, there being far to many players for the small team of OOO to handle. Let's say 500 people make 1 room, which I find more than believable, that makes 500 rooms that can be tested, viewed, donated - and have to be saved somewhere. So let's say everyone can make 5 rooms if they want. That would be 2500 rooms that need to be saved somewhere. That you would have to browse through. Imagine it. 2500 rooms, if only 500 people decide to make some. Even with 3 rooms there would be far, far to many when every player makes one. As I am writing this I am even thinking of suggesting an even higher creation cost for tiles and monsters, realizing how vast the number of created rooms could become.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:07

#32

Infernoburner

Derpuraptor strikes back

I see I have to deal with the tomato nukes here.
1- How is that limit bad? I know a certain MMOG where you can create like 30 custom levels, make custom elements to them, etc. If it worked for them, how would this make a suicide to SK?
2- Leaving my stuff in the bin, the prices ARE too high. This is just a big finger to t2 veterans (and trust me, there's a lot), and more importantly, a finger to originality and creativity.
3- I said "You can't vote for rooms"? Ignore that. I guess I was drunk.
4- You said something about levels, so..
5- Ever heard of Storyline? The purpose of the seal is to actually give them the feel they can't proceed, that the icon on the elevator doesn't change. An elevator with an icon that does not change is like a nail compared to a hand.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 14:55

#33

Klipik

What's wrong with my idea then? Only the rooms that people like get donated to and get presented to OOO. The cost of creating a room plus the 1mil cr donation should still keep the bad stuff away from OOO's desk, so there's no reason to limit it to one room per person.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 15:11

#34

El-Odio

Ok, it's super late and I have to get up early so I'll try to make it short, please bear with me.

1. "The objective of this suggestion is first and foremost the creation of single rooms to randomly add to the clockwork."
The Room Merger, while being capable of creating whole levels is an extension to this, and by no means accessable from the start. There would be a long and arduous questline before being able to access it. It's all written there, please do me the favor and read everything and ASK when something is unclear. Also, your idea completly leaves aside the fact that you are supposed to donate towards single passages and maybe even levels to integrate them into the existing randomly generated Clockworks. Your idea is making your own Clockwork, which is something ENTIRELY different!

2. T2 Veterans would even be able to acces this content as Emberlight is T3 and you can only start this whole thing when reaching AT LEAST Emberlight. Again, it's in the text, read it. Further you don't seem to understand that the 1.000.000 Crowns / 10.000 Minerals are provided BY EVERY PLAYER. It's the donation system, where people donate towards a common cause. That, too, is in the text. And the cost for the creation of a room alone is LESS than the cost to build a 5* weapon.

3. Ok.

4. I also said something about Trojan Horseshoes, yet, this suggestion has very little to do with them. Though you are right levels are a part of this idea - a seperate part from the main suggestion. It's in a different post, the 20th to be more precise.

5. It took me some time to get what you were playing at, but a full on Clockwork substitute was never what I had in mind or what I even think would be advisable. I really recommend you try to flesh that idea out and start your own topic about it, as it has nearly nothing in common with this one.

Edit: @ Klipnik - what is it in this Q&A that eludes you?

Q: Why do you want to restrict players to a single room?
A: There are various reason. First, they are still cheap. While the cost may look high, they are still more than manageable for most of the veterans, at which this content is aimed. It wouldn't be to much a problem to make more than one in a short time - which leads us to second, there being far to many players for the small team of OOO to handle. Let's say 500 people make 1 room, which I find more than believable, that makes 500 rooms that can be tested, viewed, donated - and have to be saved somewhere. So let's say everyone can make 5 rooms if they want. That would be 2500 rooms that need to be saved somewhere. That you would have to browse through. Imagine it. 2500 rooms, if only 500 people decide to make some. Even with 3 rooms there would be far, far to many when every player makes one. As I am writing this I am even thinking of suggesting an even higher creation cost for tiles and monsters, realizing how vast the number of created rooms could become.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 18:10

#35

Klipik

@El-Odio - Why you spell my name wrong? It's right there.

OOO wouldn't have to look through 2500 rooms, only the ones that get funded. Do you really think the community will put out 2.5 billion CR for that?

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 08:55

#36

El-Odio

I am NOT talking about OOO there

I am talking about the users, as is stated above. YOU would have to look through them and find those that are good enough to be implemented. YOU have to view them, YOU have to test them, YOU have to donate for them.
But let me give you something more... real, so you can grasp why infinite rooms are a bad thing: I once made a suggestion that there should be more story, showing some of the graver flaws in the plot. It was created around september last year, and I don't know at which time the last comment was made. It was never graveyarded, so it should be around the first 2000-3000 suggestions. Go and find it.
You probably won't do that, I know, because of many more or less obvious reasons. Now imagine looking at the names of thousands of rooms, having to click every single one to get a miniature view of the design and then having to actually play to see how they work. Imagine what the auction house would look like if no auction ever expired.
Also, the point of the necessary processing capability to store the rooms still stands.
It just should not ever happen. Never.

The only option I could suggest to offer "make as many rooms as you like" is the following: An expiration date. If a room doesn't get 250k within one or two weeks it expires and is deleted. Which I think is awful but hey, you could build rooms like crazy.

Also, I honestly believed your name was Klipnik. No offence, I just never took the time to confirm it.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 13:37

#37

Klipik

That expiration date thing could work, then the whole system would basically work like Kickstarter. Don't get enough funding in time, it doesn't get made. And preferably, you wouldn't get a refund for the cost to create the room, and the only refund would be to the people who donated. Then the only problem left would be the people who immediately repost a level or extremely similar level right after the original fails... but you could stop that by making a limit so that a certain percentage of any level you create would have to be different than one that you created in the last month or so.

And why would anyone want to do this other than to be creative? Would your character get some kind of profit from designing the levels?

Sat, 04/13/2013 - 18:36

#38

Super-Ratman

Maybe just 3 or 5 slots?

I don't want to be able to design infinite blueprints (though it would be nice), just 3 or more would probably do.

Also, I despise the expiry date.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 13:05

#39

El-Odio

I'd appreciate more feedback on this last one, so please everyone share your thoughts on this (without starting something entirely new).

And yes Klipik, you are right when saying that it holds no personal benefit to have ones stage/room implemented, but it IS a rather costy business, so there's always the fear of having "wasted" resources on a stage. Also one has to consider that this might lead to people featuring their own stages, i.e. building a room and donating until it is featured, so they are on the save side with it. Sure there would be a way working around it, but for that I'd really have to know first how much people lean towards this whole "expiration date" thing.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 13:50

#40

Klipik

simple solution for that

You can't donate to your own thing?

But alts... :/

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 14:43

#41

Xenonguard

I don't see any problem

I don't really see much problem with the 1 room limit thing, and in a way I think it may be a blessing in disguise as it makes you have to coordinate building rooms with your guildmates to make it fit in with the plan you all want. However, as an extra crownsink, you can buy extra room slots from the gremlin outcast. I'd like to hear your opinions on this, and I give this thread a +1 in general.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 17:55

#42

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

I should point out that the "One blueprint limit" can be worked around easily...

Stares at Eurydice and her alts.

EDIT: Fixed typo.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 19:33

#43

Zeyez

eyes trying to see the end to another end

just thinking something about the new game modes on SK, using the "Stage Blueprints", like:

> Timed Run/Assault (maps with timeout to be traversed)
> Team Puzzle (need more than one guy to solve)
> Survival
> Supply Delivery (you need to carry the crate on your back, leaving you slower, disabling your UVs... giving some penalty)
> "Class Theme Maps" (like try end the map, remaining on stealth using the Recon module or some kind of speed run with Striker module)
> Escort (but that one, you need to protect your escort [example: Recon with the broken invisibility device, which will open the gates for the team] to end the map)
> Competitive maps (portal 2 have: race between 2 players on speed gel, using portals and activate the traps on the way... why not here? using vials and traps to disrupt the others)
...

well, the possibilities are endless ... just hope the OOO give us the tools to do it

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 07:12

#44

El-Odio

In order to raise this back to the first site I will address Autofires concern regarding the work around to the "One Blueprint Limit":
So that you can make a Blueprint you have to first reach Emberlight, i.e. T3, which, in my opinion, is fine as a work around. If you really have the equipment to reach T3 then you should be free to make another blueprint, regardless of alt or not.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 10:25

#45

Klipik-Forum

Quick question

Can we design Lockdown/ Blast Network maps like this? Or only clockworks levels?

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 10:50

#46

El-Odio

I guess?

I mean, why not? If people want it, what's keeping them from offering it? 100 x 100 should be more than necessary for a PvP Map.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 11:32

#47

Thunder-The-Bright

mah.

I recollect that is king krogmo that leads LD, not thinkinzar. so it's not that paying a gremlin will convince him to do LD maps. but maybe you could bribe him. we only need a connection.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 13:47

#48

Neodasus

+1 My only doubt that this

My only doubt that this will most likely never happen is the payout. OOO needs to adjust payout to control CE prices.

Thu, 05/09/2013 - 06:22

#49

El-Odio

Given Demons and Gremlins working together at some points, it should be possible to have those two work together. After all, Gremlins still created most of the planet by restructuring parts from other planets - I'd guess Tinkinzar bought a few of his arenas from the gremlins.

Thu, 05/09/2013 - 06:52

#50

Fehzor

Why put a price on it? I'd just make it free for everyone to make... you'd get much better maps out of the system if you did it that way. A crown sink is a good thing, but is it really necessary here?

I can understand "vote it into the game" but not with crowns. Some T3 player could make something derpy and then farm/pay the 1 mill to get it into the game. Why not have it be like 95% vote-in rate after getting 1000 or more play throughs? And how would crown payoff work for these community levels?

If I were designing this, I'd base it almost entirely on how it was implemented in Portal 2. I finished the game, then went to the title screen and clicked on the community levels button. I was shown a humorous video explaining what was going on... then I went and looked at the level builder, which was extremely nice and efficient. Then I went and played some community test chambers- I was presented with several options "Newest test chamber", "Top rated test chamber", I could even just go to steam workshop (which wouldn't be a bad idea for SK) and download specific test chambers to play. Then, I just played through them, and had a good time. The rating system had a thumbs up and a thumbs down button for each test chamber, and I thumbs up'd most of them (I was playing on "top rated" so they were pretty ridiculous). And that was all there was to it.

If spiral knights gets anything like this, the hardest part to balanced would definitely be the crown balance. Everyone likes bob's grind-matic-III, but that isn't what we want, now is it? But preventing that creates problems... I'd almost say that levels should pay out on a set basis... a good set basis... but then not give any materials. Yeah, that's what I'd do. Something like T1 levels all pay out a flat 500 crowns, T2 levels pay out a flat 1000 crowns and T3 levels pay out a flat 1,500 crowns. All of these are less than the boss levels though... perhaps 700, 1300 and 2000?

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