Crafting cost, actual numbers
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:01
Can anybody check my numbers? Seems to me that crafting costs about the same as they were before, as long as you are only crafting a new item for yourself, and already have the mats. Let's do a 5* example. We'll ignore the free 350 mist energy that we could have used for crafting. Also, I will assume that this is a new recipe, so we must factor in the recipe cost.
At 5000cr/100CE
Before the patch, crafting a 5* item cost a total of 107900 crowns, or 2158 energy.
After the patch, crafting a 5* item cost a total of 121400 crowns, or 2428 energy.
The cost post-patch is 12.5% higher (270CE higher) than the cost pre-patch.
At 4000cr/100CE, the cost post-patch is 5.4% higher than the cost pre-patch (post=106900cr, pre=101400cr).
At 3000cr/100CE, the cost post-patch is 3% lower than the cost pre-patch (post=92400cr, pre=94900cr).
A few things to note about the results...
1. The 800CE crafting fee for a 5* is softened because of the decreased recipe cost. Even if you try to think only about the cost of purchasing a recipe, only paying 25,000cr instead of 45,000cr is a savings of 20,000cr, which can be turned into 400 energy if the market is trading for 5000cr/100CE.
2. I have only been describing the cost for creating the first item (we are a new knight, so didn't already know the recipe). If we already know the recipe, the cost for the item is reduced significantly, we can craft known 5* recipes for less than 1000CE.
3. Pre-patch, the recipes alone account for 61% of the total cost. Post-patch, the recipes only make up 33% of the total cost (at 5000cr/100CE). This patch has shifted the cost of an item from recipes to energy.
4. Pre-patch we were able to spread the cost of the recipes by creating more than one of the item, and selling the extras. Now everybody has to eat the cost of the 4* and 5* recipes.
5. When the market is at 3000cr/100CE, we need 3080CE to build a new 5* item. When the market is at 4000cr/100CE, we only need 2673CE for the same 5* item. Looks counter-intuitive, but the more crowns we get for our CE, the more we can buy in game, and the fewer CE we will need to make the purchase.
Here are the costs I am using. I don't know how to do tables on the forums, so I'm only listing recipe / energy costs. The crown cost for combining stayed the same as pre-patch (400cr, 1000cr, 2500cr, 5000cr).
OLD
T2 1000 / 50
T3 5500 / 100
T4 15000 / 200
T5 45000 / 300
NEW
T2 1000 / 50
T3 4000 / 200
T4 10000 / 400
T5 25000 / 800
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:15
#2
One problem is that if the
One problem is that if the crown price of energy hits the roof, the crafting costs for 5** weapons will hit the roof.
The other big problem is that lets say you find or buy the recipe of your desired 5* weapon (but you don't have the 4* prerequisite weapon for this), before you could simply trade one from someone who is selling it. Now, you MUST make the 4* (and probably 3* versions etc) yourself.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:18
#3
Inflation Problems
Only problem with the new system is the fact that CE is inflating rapidly and will continue to inflate rapidly. Considering the only way to craft 3*+ items now is with CE, this means that the computation of cost you are calculating is going to fluctuate based on CE prices. Currently, yes, it is cheaper.
However, analyzing it further, with the new trading restrictions in place, you can only trade 3* and below items. Therefore, CE should actually deflate, as the market now no longer supports people making lots of 4* and 5* items for the purpose of selling.
Any thoughts?
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:22
#4
3*
Old Craft
3*
Old Craft Cost==========New Craft Cost
5500c + 1000c + 100EN ~ 4000c + 1000c + 200 EN
Crowns:Energy===Cost + Recipe======Cost - Recipe
==============Old=====New======Old====New
4000c:100EN====10500c ~ 13000c====5000c ~ 9000c
5000c:100EN====11500c ~ 15000c====6000c ~ 11000c
6000c:100EN====12500c ~ 17000c====7000c ~ 13000c
7000c:100EN====13500c ~ 19000c====8000c ~ 15000c
4*
Old Craft Cost==========New Craft Cost
15000c + 2500c + 200EN ~ 10000c + 2500c + 400 EN
Crowns:Energy===Cost + Recipe======Cost - Recipe
==============Old=====New======Old====New
4000c:100EN====25500c ~ 28500c====10500c ~ 18500c
5000c:100EN====27500c ~ 32500c ====12500c ~ 22500c
6000c:100EN====29500c ~ 36500c ====14500c ~ 26500c
7000c:100EN====31500c ~ 40500c ====16500c ~ 30500c
5*
Old Craft Cost==========New Craft Cost
45000c + 5000c + 300EN ~ 25000c + 5000c + 800 EN
Crowns:Energy===Cost + Recipe======Cost - Recipe
==============Old=====New======Old====New
4000c:100EN====62000c ~ 62000c====17000c ~ 37000c
5000c:100EN====65000c ~ 70000c====20000c ~ 45000c
6000c:100EN====68000c ~ 78000c====23000c ~ 53000c
7000c:100EN====71000c ~ 86000c====26000c ~ 61000c
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:31
#5
Eh
Except this depends on ce prices.
Fact is:
Crafting before update: Someone somewhere had to pay $1.
After update: Someone somewhere had to pay $4.
That's right, $4 for an item.
Also, the higher ce prices get, the higher crafting prices will get now.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:29
#6
Consider 4* + Old
Consider 4* + Old system
Needed 200 CE, But patiently saving 100 ME, means you only need to buy 100 CE
So even if the Crown to CE market is very expensive, you only needed 100 CE of it.
Consider 4* + New system
Needs 400 CE, But patiently saving 100 ME, means you need to buy 300 CE
Now if the Crown to CE market is very expensive, you need 300 CE, whch would be problematic.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:30
#7
Only the same cost, IF you
Only the same cost, IF you make craft that item (1) time. Beyond 1, you will be out (100 + 200 + 500ce) for each additional craft.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:38
#8
It is never the same cost. It
It is never the same cost. It is more expensive in every situation.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:45
#9
Just to note from what I've
Just to note from what I've seen after being on the servers, the prices of CE is LOWER than yesterday.
Interesting if it's the "boycotters" having that effect.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:46
#10
No, definitely more expensive
As mentioned by other posters: It only looks roughly the same initially, at the current exchange rate, and only for that item. Truthfully, it's much more expensive because CE will invariably rise in price (of crowns), and now that 4* items cannot be sold (and 3* items cannot be pre-leveled), the cost of making a 5* item really forcibly includes the cost of making 3* and 4* items- all three of which, mind you, have had CE costs boosted tremendously.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:50
#11
uhhh
"If we already know the recipe, the cost for the item is reduced significantly, we can craft known 5* recipes for less than 1000CE. "
Unless you already have the 4*, making a 5* item right now from scratch with the recipe will cost you 1450ce/8900cr...
at 3k/100ce = ~1750ce
at 4k/100ce = 1675ce
Maybe you were talking about pre-patch? It seems to me like this is a more appropriate cost for crafting an UNBOUND item (based on the ~2k CE prices i saw before) since realistically, you're only ever going to craft once now. If you want to reroll for a UV, well, your price just increased dramatically.
So, overall CE cost decreases as the crowns/100ce increases. Yay!...
Except that has always been the case, and it used to scale much faster. (2158 at 5k and 2535 at 4k, prepatch VS 2428 at 5k and 2672.5 at 4k post ) What you're not thinking about is how you get CE. If you're not buying it with real money, chances are you're farming crowns and trading them for CE.
From a f2p standpoint you measure things in crowns. Unless CE is less than about 3200cr per 100ce, the cost of making anything in this game just increased. at 4.7k per 100, its about a 10% increase.
From a paying standpoint, you measure things in CE. Well, they just nerfed how well your CE scaled with the market, AND increased your costs.
Im thinking thats why people are upset?
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 16:51
#12
Right now there is an excess
Right now there is an excess of CE, because a lot of players were hoarding it to buy premade 5* items or to craft items to sell. That suddenly isn't true. And a lot of people that previously planned on buying CE to craft with it suddenly stopped, since CE crafting requirements suddenly jumped. Thus, CE really isn't being used in game right now, due to both the lack of players online (boycotters) and to people waiting for some kind of solution to this before crafting (demand for CE).
However, IF this isn't rolled back, and IF people still choose to play, you can definitely expect to see CE prices for crowns jump, especially if the auction houses fees stay as ridiculous as they are (failing as a cr sink since no one wants to lose 10% of their net assets).
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 17:03
#13
Pupu's correct, the cash
Pupu's correct, the cash price of the item has gone up dramatically. Someone, somewhere has to pay it even if the crafter trades it for crowns. Even ignoring the CE crown price fluctuations and crafting more then once, the player base needs to spend more then twice what we have been spending so far for the game to be unaffected. I'd say that is unlikely, sorry OOO, repeating the same levels isn't addicting enough for people to just do that. So the game economy will be severely affected in some way, just how is yet to be seen.
I personally expect a significant of increase of crowns/energy once this sinks in and existing energy supplies are exhausted. In short, a repeat of the preview-release transition, except driving energy prices well above what the average player could collect in coins for any given amount of energy this time.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 17:00
#14
@Pupu: That's exactly what
@Pupu: That's exactly what I'm trying to check. I'm trying to say, the pre-patch cost was already high. Post-patch cost isn't too much different. At 5000cr/100CE, crafting before update actually cost 107900cr or 2158 energy, at 3500CE for $9.95, that comes to $6.14. After update costs 121400cr or 2428 energy, which comes to $6.91.
Again, this assumes we are crafting from scratch (no known recipes), and already have all the required mats.
The formula ends up looking like (for 5000cr/100CE)
T2: 1000cr + 400cr + 50CE -> 1000 + 400 + 2500 = 3900
T3: 5500cr + 1000cr + 100CE -> 5500 + 1000 + 5000 = 11500
T4: 15000cr + 2500cr + 200CE -> 15000 + 2500 + 10000 = 27500
T5: 45000cr + 5000cr + 300CE -> 45000 + 5000 + 15000 = 65000
Total: 107900
T2: 1000cr + 400cr + 50CE -> 1000 + 400 + 2500 = 3900
T3: 4000cr + 1000cr + 200CE -> 4000 + 1000 + 10000 = 15000
T4: 10000cr + 2500cr + 400CE -> 10000 + 2500 + 20000 = 32500
T5: 25000cr + 5000cr + 800CE -> 25000 + 5000 + 40000 = 70000
Total: 121400
Judging from infinity56's port, it looks like we are converting and adding things up the same way. Yes, the difference gets more pronounced as the cost of CE in crowns goes up. At 7000cr/100CE, the post-patch cost is 25% higher than the pre-patch cost.
The recipe used to be a huge part of the cost of an item. If you weren't farming for crowns for CE, you were farming for crowns to pay for the recipe. Pre-patch, having one friend to create multiple 5* items really helped to save money, since you could spread out the recipe cost.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 17:07
#15
Maybe I'm coming at it from
Maybe I'm coming at it from the wrong angle? I'm going from CE to crowns to calculate the cost. Maybe if I get more time, I'll try it starting with crowns.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 17:21
#16
Hm
There's a flaw in you calculations, you're making ce = crowns an absolute equality, while in reality, crowns are ""free"", and ce is worth cash.
Someone somewhere spent $3 to $4 for the 5* item you're now wearing.
The crowns are variable as how you get them.
Also, now that ce is more important to crafting, the ce prices are going to go higher and higher.
And crowns are worth less and less, so there is no reason for selling ce in the market.
My advice: Hoard as much ce as you can now.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 17:46
#17
Looks alright to me
@leecadet: I did the calculations converting crowns into CE at the current exchange rate of 5k/100 CE, and I get pretty much the same results (100 CE increase for 4* and 5* items). From a purely mathematical standpoint, your calculations are solid.
What many others have said is true, though - basically, what updated crafting boils down to is that the cost of upper-tier items (4* and 5*) are now much more heavily influenced by the CE market.
Overall, the big thing that seems to have changed is the way players will be playing the game, since everyone will be forced to buy their own 4* and 5* recipes.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 17:43
#18
Hey...
I appreciate you guys running these numbers. I know the market fluctuates, but I was curious all the same.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 17:48
#19
Here's what it boils down
Here's what it boils down to:
no matter how you calculate it, ce to cr or cr to ce, no matter what the energy market is, be it 4k cr for 100ce or 8k cr for 100ce, THE TOTAL CASH spent on the game by all collective players will have to just about triple for the same number of people to get the same number of 5* equips as before. Right now that won't be that obvious, since there's still a huge pool of CE in players banks in the game. But once that runs out, unless people magically start spending 3x more real money on this game than they did before, there will be far less ce to go around, and far less 5* items.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 18:26
#20
Posts have a very "sky is falling" attitude
- Tsuyoi
However, IF this isn't rolled back, and IF people still choose to play, you can definitely expect to see CE prices for crowns jump, especially if the auction houses fees stay as ridiculous as they are (failing as a cr sink since no one wants to lose 10% of their net assets).
- Tsuyoi
no matter how you calculate it, ce to cr or cr to ce, no matter what the energy market is, be it 4k cr for 100ce or 8k cr for 100ce, THE TOTAL CASH spent on the game by all collective players will have to just about triple for the same number of people to get the same number of 5* equips as before. Right now that won't be that obvious, since there's still a huge pool of CE in players banks in the game. But once that runs out, unless people magically start spending 3x more real money on this game than they did before, there will be far less ce to go around, and far less 5* items.
Your posts have a very "sky is falling" attitude with them, and a sense of illogicalness as well.
To address the first post I quoted, you aren't even correct in that. The auction house is doing very successfully even though it's not really as efficient as it should be, and people are putting up their items for sale just fine, even if they have to lose 10% of their item value. I don't see it failing as a crown sink right now, it's actually the opposite.
With the second, I don't see how the number of 5* equips in the game HAS to be the same. Pre-update, the amount of 5* was so much that people could have 5* armor+hat AND 5* armor+hat and not see that as "expensive". It's hilarious to actually see a Vog Cub outfit with a Skolver costumer over it, and it's even more funny that plenty have done that (even I wanted to and could eventually in a week). Therefore, post-update of course will have less 5* crafts created, and I fail to see how that's a bad thing, especially if the main suspicion that OOO just wants to artifically extend the time it reaches their assumed endgame of beating Vanaduke is true.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 18:53
#21
The high crafting costs need
The high crafting costs need to take a hike.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 18:59
#22
Aw man! I just got jipped!
Aw man! I just got jipped! Before the patch, I bought a Vog Cap recipe for 45k. I was going to craft it for 300CE and 5000c, once I get the dough, but now they raised it to 800CE?! I want my 20k back!
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 19:06
#23
@Volebamus
There is nothing
@Volebamus
There is nothing illogical or alarmist about saying that CE prices will rise or that people will have to pay significantly more cash for the game to remain somewhat like it is.
CE demand has been dramatically increased, that much is clear. Seeing that crowns are regulated by mist and grind-tolerance and CE capped by what people are willing to spend, not that you addressed the CE price point at all, you just said Tsuyoi wasn't "even correct".
The AH is only a day old, yet people who weren't spamming have about two months worth of junk accumulated. Until that balances out we have no idea what the AH will really look like, so your speculation is as good as his.
Now of course the crafting doesn't have to stay the same. It just won't be the same game for a lot of players without it. There are essentially two elements in the game as it stands, dungeon runs and crafting. The dungeons are, promises in regards to "uniqueness" notwithstanding, monotone and repetitive. So far that has been offset by a variety of weapons and armor; playing with three guns and light armor is a very different experience than playing with two bombs, a sword and demo armor. If you nerf the second part of the experience you are left with a slow grind towards your crafting goals while doing the same levels with the same gear over and over.
So no, as long as that is the game you want to play it doesn't matter that sustaining current play-style would require people to spend 2-4 times as much real world money. However if you prefer to play with new toys on a regular basis (say, every other week), than you wonder how and if it will work out.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 19:23
#24
Come on, I didn't disagree with ALL of his posts
- balticbear
There is nothing illogical or alarmist about saying that CE prices will rise or that people will have to pay significantly more cash for the game to remain somewhat like it is.
*sigh* Just because I disagreed with a part of his post doesn't mean I disagreed with ALL of it. Read what I posted again; I did not contest that CE prices will rise or people will have to pay more real money to get what they wanted before.
I'm only criticizing his claims that:
- The auction house is unsuccessful. Its doesn't matter what you think the Auction House will look like in the future, as I'm disputing his claim that it won't be used since "no one wants to lose 10% of their net assets". We obviously see that's wrong.
- There NEEDS to be the same ratio as 5*-per-player after the update. If we were at the point where many 5* users could use their EXTRA 5* equipment as COSTUMES without any issues, the idea of there being a balanced amount of S-Class items in the past is inaccurate.
Please people, when replying to my post, critique only the things I say, not what you feel like I'm saying.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 20:03
#25
@Volebamus
You shouldn't post parts you agree with then. I read all of your post, responded to all main points, why are you trying to give an impression that I didn't?
Again, just because people are using the AH actively a day after release doesn't mean it will succeed. Personally I think it will work out OK, but Tsuyoi was clearly speaking about its future ("...if the auction houses fees stay..."), responding to future possibilities with "doesn't matter [right now]" is missing the point. It was speculation on both sides there, nothing more to it.
The second point is a great destruction of a strawman. I haven't seen anyone claim that it NEEDS to stay the same, Tsuyoi certainly didn't say so, yet that is precisely (caps and all) the non-argument you are attacking. I elaborated on why the game won't be the same if the total amount of crafting plummets, you could try responding to that instead. Also, just because someone has a costume doesn't mean that it is only ever a costume. Some players might only ever use one set of gear. But different levels are better with different gear, that costume might turn into armor quite quickly if needed, why is wearing it as a costume when not in use an imbalance?
I don't have any 5 star gear yet and have been playing regularly since day one, the game was plenty balanced if you restrain your credit card. Particularly considering that someone wearing 5 star armor as a costume did nothing at all to mess with your game. Now it is out of whack if you don't spend non-trivial amounts.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 20:21
#26
Yes... and no...
Sure, for a free-player who is content with crafting each line once, costs are barely nudged upward. That's fine for me. However, for cash players who buy all their CE and earn crowns in dungeons (and I believe a substantial portion of the playerbase prefers to keep the currencies separate like that, as well, of course, as those who buy all their CE with cash and also sell some of it for extra crowns. Players who occasionally supplement their CE with cash but mostly buy it with crowns are more-or-less in the same boat as free players, except their CE supplement goes away a lot faster now.) Basically, for all the crying that this update hurts free players... as a free player I gotta say, I don't feel hurt. It hurts people who were in the crafting business, because of the 4*/5* thing, but nick recently announced there will be an adjustment to that, so, wait for it. The crafting costs, however, really really hurt cash players.
Hurting the paying customers was probably not the smartest choice.
Now, the higher crafting cost makes it more expensive to craft -multiple- of the same item, meaning it's now extremely costly to replace your Gran Faust with a UV Gran Faust and so on (which pretty much everyone is going to want to do eventually, for whatever their favorite 5* gear is, maybe more than once if they first get an affordable 'low' or 'medium' UV and later a 'very high' or 'maximum!') That's fine... I'm sure that was intentional to make those UV 5* weapons rarer and more expensive. Well and good, but it would have been far, far better to increase the -crown- cost of crafting than the CE cost. Increasing the CE cost to multiply three rings income on gear that every player is seeking to get into the end-game content... that just smacks of sheer profiteering and a lot less of game balance. Cut the auction house take back and get some of the needed crown sink from crafting costs, and return the CE cost to what it was. That's still ... 2x weapon, armor, helmet, shield... 5 bucks a pop -just- for the last stage in crafting for each end game character. Never mind the previous parts of crafting, the gate energy to collect materials, alternate weapons and extra slots and tokens... 5 bucks -minimum- to be an end game character, and now it's been pushed up to over $20 to be a minimally viable endgame character -in addition- to the cost of playtime (gates). Sheeesh.
Mié, 05/18/2011 - 21:23
#27
The thing is, OP, before the
The thing is, OP, before the update you could dilute the recipe cost easily through the first sales, and then more profit. The CE craft cost however you can't dilute. Every time you craft it's there and you should be able to cover that.
What I found out is people sell items bellow the crafting costs on AH. And even if they didn't I suspect not many people have the funds to buy the crafting cost anymore. So it's all about recipes and mats now. Kinda sad that crafting now is overshadowed by leftovers of other people, probably trying for UVs.
TL;DR: crafting is not a real business anymore.
yay