SK has more potential than it seems: Monster Families

Spiral Knights literally has more possibilities that it should be exploring (but yes i know it takes time to turn these to reality) ... as we know, monsters and the story are main compartments of a game and a wonderful one we have in SK, but (ill be frank) I did the math and came to the conclusion that there are 12 more possible monster families. yes, you heard right, TWELVE other than the current redundant 6. Certain monster types can only have more variety within that circle only to a certain limit (beasts need more love imo tho). A certain branch can only extend so much, so let's go back a bit and unveil 12 more possible main branches. the twelve are related and can be said to be derivations from the six we have right now. this thread is mainly to inform the community (and OOO if they even read this), not to suggest an idea so this clearly doesnt belong to the suggestions. anyway, if you refer to this chart i made (refer to the legend please):
le chart (ignore the bottom part, theyre suggestions for possible boss types)
you can see that monsters have three attributes: dmg they deal (top), weakness (bottom left), and resistance (bottom right). with the current combinations, we have slime, gremlin, fiend and undead with same dmg and resist and beast and construct with same dmg and weakness. you will see that there are 2 more possible in the left side and 4 more on the right (excluding neutrals).
further analyzing the chart, you can see that there are no monster families existing with all attribute types as their attributes. (the "isotriads). so, that makes 12 ... ill be putting up possible monster family types/names in the suggestions when ive figured out all of them or when i give up, which ever comes first. currently, i have figured out 8/12 possible monster family names/types to suggest.
i was initially intending to join Njthug and Digicom's art contest and did the math to see other possible combinations of monsters so, hey why not help OOO expand the game while at it? ... so yeah, i guess that ends my act of informing you guys of this fact \(^...^)/
"the universe is indeed a spiral in nature ... it can go infinitely inward or outward ... also the principle of micro/macrocosmos"
edit: so this does belong to the suggestions apparently ... my bad

To summarize, for the sake of later readers:
There are currently 6 monster families, which are perfectly symmetric with respect to their resistances and vulnerabilities. Each one also has a damage type that it inflicts. Akuryo is proposing that we triple the number of monster families, from 6 to 18. We can do this by symmetrizing with respect to the inflicted damage type.
For example, there is a monster family that resists shadow and is vulnerable to elemental (undead). This monster family inflicts shadow. But there should be another version that inflicts piercing, and another version that inflicts elemental.

thanks for the summary :3

Nick's rule #1: no kobolts, goblin, elves ect, only original races. you gotta think harder, but I can't think of anything.

I thought of this once.
We have fiends and undead, which resist shadow and deal shadow. But we could have undead that deal elemental+resist shadow etc.
But then I had another thought.
The devs could just make a 5th damage type if they wanted to. Infinite monster families!
But maybe it isn't for the best of the game? Perhaps only 6 monster families is for the better?

hmm scratching goblins and all other unoriginals off the list then :/
edit: but you have to admit, the current enemies are quite limited which results to limited levels and or gear ... idk bout the gear part tho

Interesting. Many people knew this or thought about it (I didn't think it was thread worthy so I didn't.) I'll list some ideas, but Nick is gone, so his rule doesn't really mean anything anymore. I think it is obvious they won't do this new class thing but it is worth a shot.
Familiars. They disguise their look and attacks to be like random enemies, but they always deal shadow damage.They turn into their normal look in their dying animation(So they attack in different was and with as much damage the enemy they are disguised as would do to you, but in shadow damage.)
Drake. These guys have a similiar AI to the snarbolax. He tracks you before he bites, he moves towards you like the snarbolax and he roars. He can temporarily fly but not far. They can charge at you, dealing heavy damage, swipe their tail at you, bite you, scratch, and breath a tiny bit of fire. (Kinda like a slag but lasts a lot shorter)
Dragon These guys are the same thing as drake's but they fly up and swoop down sometimes(this damage enemies too.), their fire breath goes twice the length as a slags breath but lasts shorter and is more of a thin line. (animation looks a lot different too.) When he does any physical attack it has a 40% chance to deal fire or stun. Fire makes him deal more damage, and he can only appear once in a level (This doesn't apply to danger missions or future events)
Some ideas are:
Almiranian Knights:
A Kat Konjures up a portal that creates a paradox in the space time continuum and brings back the Almiranian knights, and we have to fight them. They would fight like us and maybe we could introduce new weapons with them. (Owlites might come back too and maybe we'll get a new ally.)
They are weak to shadow, resistant to elemental and deals piercing.
Dragon and drake could go under them. (They had pet dragons. Don't judge.)
Elementals:
A new planet crashes into Cradle, and it consists of these elemental based creatures that are can take any shape or form but are covered in their assigned element. They are extreemly hostile.
They are resistant to elemental (Duh.) weak to piercing and deal elemental.
Apocreans:
The Apocreans have come back, because Aprocrean Harvesters sacrificed all of their dark energy to bring back Apocrean knights that resemble the apocrean harvesters and have similiar attacks.
They are resistant to Piercing (Piercing doesn't even hurt them), weak to elemental and deal Shadow.
The Familiars can go under this.
Apocrean knights would work too. They are super resistant to piercing. (They don't even take damage) Apocrean knights materialize in a different place super quickly, and their defense goes up if you try to hit them with piercing. They attack like Phantoms, but instead of charging their weapons, they switch to their guns. They can extend parts of their body to places giving them long reach(They are pretty much made purely off of several tentacles, a brain and spikes.) They can extend their hands to a long reach, which can immobilize you, while they damage you,(You have to attack his arm to cut off his grip) , pull themselves to you then swipe with their sword or damage and poison you when they stab you from afar. They can stab their sword into the ground creating a small shockwave that makes hands immobilize, damage or poison you. They should also be able to materialize into the ground and out.
Again this is just a suggestion for a family and some of its monsters.
Ok, there. I answered the question.

The point is to find new families of monsters, not new monsters within each family. For example, we want a family that's like gremlins (resists elemental, is vulnerable to shadow) but inflicts piercing instead of elemental.

@Arden, pls refer to the suggestions section of the forums. this is a discussion on the fact that there are 12 more possible monster families unexplored yet

Sorry If I wasn't clear. I was saying that what those new things would be based off of. I did get carried off track though with some classes. I'll delete most of my comment. Sorry. I think I answered the question now because I edited it.

I don't feel that we need more monster families, as increased complexity with very little depth added is not a good thing.
Just add new monsters to the pre-existing families that have special rules. Like the oiler's and quicksilver's ability to resist and deal elemental damage when burnt/shocked, Trojans ability to do a Shock AoE, Vanaduke's custom defenses, Alpha Wolvers ability to buff nearby monster's attack.
Having monsters be able to do multiple damage types would be okay, as long as they were a super-class to a pre-existing family and thus didn't have all wacky defenses: example, a Drake being a super-class monster to the beast family, being weak to piercing and resistant to elemental like beasts are, but able to do both elemental and piercing damage (breath and claw, respectively)
Having monsters with multiple resistances is okay as well as long as, once again, they were a super-class to a pre-existing family and they only had one damage type that matched the family they were superior to. (or in the case of the oilers and quicksilvers, the visual cues are already well known by the player that fire and shock are generally tied to elemental traps)

yeah, having variety wont do unless they actually have something unique like a unique play style. many monsters are quite linear in attack you know, like they only do certain kinds of things. Trojans for example have 3 different attacks which make them fun to kill especially when mixed with a mob. but hey, im just laying down the fact that there are more possibilities to explore which may or may never be implemented in the game for reasons.
(im thinking of the elemental dmg beast types to be flora type enemies ... we dont have alien plants trying to kill us do we? plus, a certain plant monster could replace any existing grass patch (like the rock jelly) to make things interesting =w=) <-- yes i know it's a suggestion but this is a "general discussion" which means we shouldnt go too deep with the details of or suggest what they would look like

Do you want me to add that to my post?

do as you please ... though please put that you have edited your post because it might not make sense to future readers .... if there are any =...=)

status effects are pretty much generic for all dmg types so it doesnt make elemental quite unique. shadow is a mysterious dark force and piercing is force projected at a single point (thorn bullets) or multiple single points (wolver bite), then there's elemental which isnt quite defined. i do believe it is the force present of nature but the status effects are evidently forces of nature yet are found in both piercing and shadow. almost every type of status effects are implemented on every monster type which kinda makes elemental lacking in uniqueness unless it is defined as forces of "light" (which makes life possible)
yeah, did i just debate on myself?

yes, to put it simply but since every type of attack is energy based, it makes elemental kind of ... vague ... i suppose it is positive energy as opposed to shadow but have relations similar to that of ice and fire: neither cancels either

yes, to put it simply but since every type of attack is energy based
Give an example of an energy-based attack dealing non-elemental damage, and I'll gladly attempt to explain it.
Shadow is generally assumed to be Dark Energy in this game. It's a real phenomena, it just doesn't manifest nor is as employable as a weapon as easily as it is in the game. It's not "negative energy", but rather energy from a different source and operates differently.

Actually, I was thinking of something for this...
Cross-enemies! Enemies which are a mix of two families.
For example, Jelly Skelly? Pierces like a Jelly, but is weak to Elemental and resists Shadow like a Skelly!
And then there is a Skelly Jelly, which does Shadow damage like a Skelly but is weak to Shadow and resists Pierce like a Jelly!
I feel like a nerd right now... q_p

I think it'd be better if it combined the strengths of both monsters. For example, it takes slightly more damage from elemental, normal damage from shadow, and slightly less damage from piercing, while having the ability to attack with both shadow and piercing attacks.

Give an example of an energy-based attack dealing non-elemental damage
pierce is energy/force directed at a focused single point or multiple single points ... everything [material] is energy you know
It's not "negative energy", but rather energy from a different source and operates differently.
yes it is and i understand that but the way it's defined in this game is that of "evil" for the lack of a better term

Pierce is a result of impact damage directed in a certain way that causes to sections of solid matter to be forced apart, allowing passage for the projectile. (physically imparted force, measured in newtons) Now you can argue that "everything is caused by energy" but if the matter didn't constitute a large amount of the attack and wasn't formed in that specific macroscopic shape, it wouldn't be a "physical attack" anymore now would it? It'd be an energy-based attack (see below)
Energy-based attacks operate by overloading or intefering with the targets systems via a dangerous current, (shifting the flow of electrons, measured in joules) causing a chemical reaction on the surface of the target to consume skin, metal, or whatever the target happens to be made of, (alteration of matter, measured in moles, or even joules in a thermal reaction) or by causing deadly amounts of radiation (measured in sieverts)
Shadow-based attacks work by eating away at matter. (the dark energy essentially overcomes the bonding force between atoms, then flings them away from the main body) So it's a physical tearing, but at a microscopic scale.
yes it is and i understand that but the way it's defined in this game is that of "evil" for the lack of a better term
I just gave you a logical explanation of what it was an you outright ignored it.
If it's negative energy then howcome it doesn't cancel out, annihilating into gamma rays and eliminate all life in the nearby vicinity?

hmm yeah ...
and no i did not ignore your explanation i actually agree to it and im sorry for the misconception, i used the wrong term. im pointing out that only monsters considered "evil" or something use shadow based damage in this game (fiends and undead). i do consider shadow damage as attacks either imbued with energy/forces from unknown origins or simply the energy itself causing damage.
ok so to summarize, elemental damage is caused by forces at the atomic and or molecular scale to cause chemical interference; pierce is physically ripping things at the macroscopic level; shadow is dark energy altering matter (similar to elemental)
anything i missed?
edit: oh and by "yes it is" i meant your arguement is correct

I realize that "shadow" is trying to be an "evil" damage type, but as a scientifically minded fellow, I like to find a logical explanation for everything :P (especially valid because there is a mineral called "Dark Matter" in the game, and even more so because Dark Matter attracts Fiends and Undead)
Sorry if I came off prudent, or aggressive, or any other word for it.

nah, it's fine. dealing agrression and defending against it is something essential irl.
anyway, since they dumped this thread into the suggestions, id like to discuss the originality of the monsters in this game and maybe copy that essence into new monsters to be suggested
Slimes - though many games used slimes as enemies, sk actually made them do something unpredictable: do piercing damage (something you wouldnt see your gelatin do)
Beasts - many games have also used beast types (idk what kind of originality is imbued in this one ... cuteness maybe?)
Construct - basically robots which many games also have but not much in knight themed ones(?)
Gremlins - frequent also but one wouldnt expect them to be furry mechanics
Undead - frequent also (kats are kind of original. theyre probably the undead manifestations of the kat tribe) but i cant think of the originality in this one besides the design?
Fiend - frequent also but one would not expect them to be business oriented small folk working about
(youre probably the only one actually active in this thread Hex :/ or people are just busy at the moment)

I'm active everywhere. I just don't often find threads worth posting in because they're usually discussing things that have already been discussed multiple times along this forum's life.
Anyway, this thread is relevant to a thread I created a while back, and that is new monsters. (especially monsters with additional mechanics)

Wyrm Family
Resistant to piercing
Neutral to elemental
Weak to shadow
Deals piercing
Members
Drake
regular type (gremlin armor)
claw melee attack (piercing)
Wyvern
light type (devilite armor)
tail spike ranged attack (piercing)
Dragon
heavy type (lumber armor)
firebolt ranged attack (piercing+elemental)

@ Thinslayer
The characteristics you gave for the defenses/damage types of the Wyrm family are identical to the slime family, so there would be no justification to making them a new monster family.
@ OP
It's always bothered me that there were only 6 families when there were so many more combinations, but never enough to actually make a suggestion about it. This thread piqued my interest however, so I guess I'll say something. As has been said earlier in the thread, the reason OOO hasn't added all the possibilities is probably to keep the game as simple as possible. However, now that the game has been released for quite a while and we are seriously lacking in new content, new monster families would be reasonable with discretion. Wouldn't want all 12 new types to roll out at once, maybe 1 or 2 every few months to a year to give players time to get used to them. New monster families could also generate more gear in the form of monster specialist/split defense armors and weapons that are more suitable to deal with the new creeps.
Responding to your post about monster originality, the almirian legion seems pretty unique, since they seem to have the most lore (displayed in game) behind their creation than any of the other monster types. Constructs are a bit unique for the opposite reason, with some of their original creators and purpose being a mystery. Apparently not all of them were created by the gremlins and could have another purpose other than killing any Spiral Knight they come across in the clockworks. Chromalisks from the beast family are unique, taking the camouflage abilities of a chameleon to sem-invisible extremes and being able to exert enough force to deal pierce with only their tongues (I personally would have thought it only normal damage, but maybe others don't think that way).
If new monster families were ever introduced, with a full roster of 18 there would have to be some larger more defined way of classifying them. Groups that each monster family would fall under, and these larger groups would be the ones that get the UVs and such, so that there wouldn't be an over abundance of combinations when half of them do almost the same thing.
For example:
Resurrected: Kat Klan (formally in the undead family but now gets their own), Owlite Ghosts, Undead
Underworld: Fiends
Wild Animals: Beasts, Insects, Avions
Machines: Constructs
Humanoid: Gremlins, Almirian Legion (formally in the undead family but now gets their own)
Mythical Creatures: Dragons, Fairies, Nature Spirits
These examples were ones I just thought up on the fly, so I'm not too serious about them (I know slimes are missing, couldn't think of a category for them to go with the others). My point being that even if we have more monster families with all possible damage type combinations, keep the maximum of 6 overarching categories to place them all in with 3 families each to keep things simple.

yes they shouldnt be introduced so abruptly. not so sure about kat klan cuz i think the current spookats are the "resurrected kats" bringing back owlites could be potentially good, im not sure.
as for insects, yes im actually going to suggest them to be in the "deals pierce, resistant to pierce and weak to elemental" slot it also makes sense along with making elem, elem, pierce (same sequence as above) into Flora type because:
insects are beasts' enemies or can potentially be annoying to them (fleas idk if reptiles have those though)
flora are also weak to pests/ insects
beasts can ravage plants/flora
construct/machines can be destroyed by nature/plants just as a seedling can crack rock (idk bout that analogy though)
construct/machines are immune to pests/insects and can easily crush them
and one can continue this analogy as so ... (too lazy to do it but you get the point)
avions are kinda general though, we can have bat-types, bird-types, flying reptile-types (things that refer to flight) though if theyre defined as birds then theyre most likely to be included in beasts or a class similar to beasts because of beaks and talons though creating another class similar to beast would be kinda redundant
as for humanoids, i was going to suggest goblins/kobolds (shadow, elem, shadow) which would look like hooded elves covered in black fur. they could play the role of intelligent alchemists or necromancers that bring stuff back to life or something else, idk (dont have much thought on their roles) ... i have a concept drawing but im going to put up art once ive actually finalized my suggestions' designs.
also for humanoids, ive read a post that suggested werewolvers of some sort which could belong to beast family
mythical creatures (specifically nature spirits): they fit the gremlin description actually if you look at it (elem, elem, shadow) but i would like to see natural entities that manifested in clockworks (idk if it's an artificial world but it seems so)
i also would like suggest a fairy type or holy type on the [ele, shadow, pierce] description but those will have to wait
they may also have certain characteristics similar to existing ones (like im thinking of making the shadow dealing gremlins into kobolds or goblins) but hey, the more the merrier. plus, more possiilities for armor and levels \(^...^)/