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Introducing the coliseum to new players.

33 replies [Last post]
Sun, 12/07/2014 - 10:44
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros

This idea came from some coliseum forumers. And I think, it would really not be hard to do.

There is an obvious lack of players in pvp in spiral knights. Most of the players from the game are interested in Pve, but the thing is that some are not even aware of the coliseum thing or they simply never paid attention to it.

Being a european player, I can see that there is almost no lockdown game during the day , even in the week-ends. There used to be some t2 lockdown but there isn't any longer and the t3 games are only in the evening. I think the t1 never existed.
Maybe because the new players are too focused on heating, upping their stuff and rushing to t3, they often don't even know there is such a thing as pvp in spiral knights.

In the same way as the new players discover the sprites, the crafting and else through the missions we could just add some missions at rank 2 or 3 for instance to introduce blast network and lockdown to the new players. I'm sure it would considerably increase the amount of players in the coliseum everyday .

Sun, 12/07/2014 - 11:54
#1
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
algorithms are the solutions to any problem.

I think it will be as effective as introducing the arcade to new players, since you can't force them to play a match.

Sun, 12/07/2014 - 13:57
#2
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros
Sure, but we can force them

Sure, but we can force them to aknowledge the game :p .

Sun, 12/07/2014 - 17:00
#3
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
algorithms are the solutions to any problem.

do you know how many words do people normally read of tutorials?
seriously, if this worked with the arcade there would be many more parties in the arcade. (not sure of the english in this sentence, yay!)

on the idea, you should introduce them during their 1-3* period, because otherwise they will be one star below the ranks. so around the time of the RT.

Sun, 12/07/2014 - 17:17
#4
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
A better idea for tutorials

A better idea for tutorials is to make it text you can't pass, like Vanaduke's one line..... You can't skip that, just make the tutorial text the same way.

I think I might have been one of the people who brought this up so yes you have my +1.

Mon, 12/08/2014 - 06:25
#5
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros
Thunder > No need to make a

Thunder > No need to make a long text that aims at informing them . In the same way as there are tutorials that force you to try out the sprites ( otherwise you can't pass to the next mission) these tutorials would be just a step that make you try both games of the coliseum. It wouldn't be very long just a little task to accomplish with every class of lockdown and some bombing in blast network.

Also, in the 1-3 periods I agree, even 1* because there used to never be any t1 lockdown because the new players were not even aware of the coliseum. The purpose of this suggestion is exactly to popularize the pvp by aiming the new players aka the t1 or early t2.

"RT" ?

Holy > You are :)

Mon, 12/08/2014 - 09:22
#6
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
All about bots

It still wouldn't be good to bar players from progressing in their missions because they have to wait on other players. If SK can make better bots than what they have already then players could finish this mission easier. Making a good bot is difficult, obviously the SK server knows exactly what your player can do and it has a perfect connection so beating the player should be easy. You want a bot that rarely takes advantage of it's perfect knowledge.

So far the only bots we have are the mindless mecha knights and rescued knights, as well as the recon knights. However these only display the basic "Walk at and attack enemy" mindset.

Mon, 12/08/2014 - 17:49
#7
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros
It s a very good point. I was

It s a very good point. I was not conscient of the difficulty to make good bots.
But if ever OOO managed to create some, it would be incredibly useful not only for tutorials but also in the normal games . they could complete a team when there is a leaver and even allow to start a game when there are not enough players.

Mon, 12/08/2014 - 18:08
#8
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
A good bot would be a

A good bot would be a challenge to both the skilled and the unskilled but not godly. A bad bot would either be one that is exceptionally predictable or one that can perfect counter everything and never miss.

Still it would be nice for a Godbot to appear in regular LD matches when one team holds all the points.

Mon, 12/08/2014 - 19:04
#9
Avihr's picture
Avihr
Void

Excuse me if I do not trust OOO to be up for the task of creating a good enough AI for a lockdown bot, If they did they'd probably take bout 3 years alone just to make this AI, yknow, making a good AI is quite hard.

I mean, DID YOU SEE WHAT NPC's AI ARE LIKE WHEN FIGHTING MONSTERS??!!

Mon, 12/08/2014 - 23:51
#10
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@aviri

mentioned that at the end of post 5.

Currently the bots we have are only useful for taking the aggro of some monsters during a fight. Good AI would take some time to make but we don't want to throw them in with good bots either, I'm pretty sure the current braindead bots we have would be perfect for introducing T1 LD to players. We would only need quality bots for advanced players, stupid bots would be very forgiving and would let new players get familiar with LD shields.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 02:21
#11
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros
I can easily imagine a recon

I can easily imagine a recon bot , a mix between meca knight and those ninja gremlins of the danger mission 42 ( dont know the english name) component? Guardians might be also inspired of heal gremlins able to move while guarding.

However, I can hardly imagine a striker bot. in pve we can often use the hit and run technique because ennemies are far and slow to catch you but with a strike booster, they'd be able to rush at you in a fraction of second. it just lets no time to react and think. For me, it looks way too difficult :o.
Maybe , we could add a little frame between the run and the hit so that the player can react and dodge but then it woul'd be too easy... hmm...

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 02:45
#12
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
Just give the strikers weak

Just give the strikers weak weapons, make them always finish combos, never return to base or stick with a guardian, and use their striker boost all the time and never use boost while fighting. Strikers get heavy Hatchets and pummel guns.

Guardians try to stay with teammates but neither class sticks with the guardian. Only give the guardian swords and bombs.

Have recons only attack if they deathmark someone. Give them bombs and guns only.

Have the classes with bombs only use them when capping.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 10:50
#13
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros
You have a lot of ideas! I

You have a lot of ideas! I wish we had more developpers...

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:28
#14
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Alternatively...

Alternatively we could have actual gremlins pick up the slack when a knight leaves. They could rotate through various types each death and spawn at a point your team controls, then try to path to a friendly teammate (mender) or an enemy (thwacker/stalker). Give this mender its wand smack attack back, and make them neutral to all damage types.

This is more a solution to leavers than to introducing lockdown. For blast network I don't know what could be done, but leavers are less of a problem there. A better way to make the mission bit work would be "collect 5 krogmo coins and turn them into HQ". Doing so will reward you 1000 crowns back (from entry fees), and not force players to play one game or the other. I can see that alone making Blast Network get some life back.

As for the idea, I like having players try out everything the game has to offer. The only bit that's bad is that making players have to play PvP makes them rely on other players. As of right now, players can do the whole game alone if they wanted to.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:19
#15
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
agreed!

@Valtiros: agreed to this idea to include lockdown and blast network as a mission. maybe it doesn't have to be a real game but something like a short tutorial of how to access it and make it just an achievement to complete one ld and bn game. The achievement itself should include some rewards as an incentive to completing them. Although i think all achievements should include rewards, but that is for another thread topic.

Wed, 12/10/2014 - 06:03
#16
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros
Regarding making blast

Regarding making blast networks bots, I don't think it's such a problem. there is already well-known bomberman bots ( almost invicible when high-level, I talk from experience :p) that already include many different level of difficulty . I mean, if the bomberman flash game can do it, I'm sure OOO can just drow on them and add them.

Blandaxt and Fangel , I was indeed more thinking of giving some little tasks to achive instead of entire games suchs as :
- take recon and pass the ennemy team without being spotted
- take striker boost and rush to the ennemy point
- take guardian and heal your teammate
- take guardian and protect your teammates
- Kill that amount of ennemies as recon/guardian/striker
- cap that amount of bases as recon/guardian/striker
- defend
- survive as recon/guardian/striker for that amounf of time.
- else

But still, asking for 5 krogmo coins is totally doable too but I'm not sure that throwing them directly into a realy game would be the best way to make them take an interest in the game or like it. I tried to make some friends who usually do pve play lockdown ( t3 admittedly) and they were like " damn it's unfair" "this damn Uvs" " these trinkets" "am one shot" " the **** Auto aim" " the lagg " "unfair" "unfair" "unfair"...

I think it's a bit hard to directly go amongst the pro people who will rush at the newbies and kill them to make dmg.

Perhaps introducing them little by little would be a more interesting approach and even allow them to be useful at their first lockdown game.

Maybe first the tuto and then : bring 5 krogmo coins ( 3 games) so that they can really experience the game in all its facets and maybe really love it as I did .

Of course they would be rewarded then :) ( why not a 1* heart trinket to start with?)

Wed, 12/10/2014 - 06:42
#17
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
yeah..

@Valtiros: a slow and steady approach seems the best way to teach newbies then the flare and blast your dead approach. agreeed to your idea.

Wed, 12/10/2014 - 11:52
#18
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Well of course

Making players slowly ease into the PvP realm is a good idea. However, forcing them to play a game they don't want to play is a bad one in game design. Getting 5 krogmo coins is, at the very least, 5 PvP games of choice where you lose every game, and costs you 1000 crowns in entry fees. Hence, when you turn in the coins you get your 1000 crowns back. If you want to introduce a pendant that wouldn't be a bad idea.

As of the current system, we have no bots. Let's assume we keep this system for now. Under this system, we would have more newbies playing lockdown, and more of everyone playing blast network. Blast network is a game that can be fun for everyone. Lockdown is only fun if you're not dying every 10 seconds and being spawn camped - which isn't a rare situation, and it's not fun. We want players to have fun in PvP, so letting them choose between which PvP game they want to play is a better design.
And since you get krogmo coins from both games, only require the coins. This will also make players realize the coliseum tab exists, which makes them potentially play the other game in the future.

In later ranks perhaps have another mission like this. Like, rank 4-1 has a PvP mission, rank 7-1 has a PvP mission, and rank 9-1 has a PvP mission. Each one requires more krogmo coins. First one requires 5, second requires 15, third requires 25. First one rewards 1k crowns, and a heart pendant. Second rewards 3k crowns, 2 enamoracks, and an advanced orb of alchemy. Third rewards 5k crowns, 3 enamoracks, and an elite/eternal orb of alchemy.
This system rewards players with a heart trinket, the items needed to upgrade the trinket (at least a bit), and some orbs to use however (maybe for the trinket!). Perhaps give players a bound trinket slot upgrade in one of them, maybe the first one.
We want the players to have fun, or realize that PvP is not their thing. By rewarding them with items that help in PvE as well, they're more likely to be okay with it, especially since they don't lose any crowns for the required games. If they win any game, they make a profit!

Wed, 12/10/2014 - 12:43
#19
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Fangel

Why not just a whole new mission tab devoted to PVP?

With missions designed to encourage multiple styles of play and it not hindering story progression we could provide endgamers and noobs alike with something else to do.

Prizes for these missions could be item and trinket slots, trinkets, UV tickets, fire crystals, orbs, extra Krogcoins, and so on.

As a point of easy accessibility for all tiers have the difficulty selection indicate which tier you will fight in.
Normal=T1
Advanced=T2
Elite=T3

Of course certain missions such as those requiring a certain number (caps, defends, damage) to pass would be scaled per tier.

Wed, 12/10/2014 - 13:00
#20
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

can't think of anything for this thread but

@valtir
theyre called ghostmane stalkers

Wed, 12/10/2014 - 14:13
#21
Fangel's picture
Fangel
We don't need a new tab.

If you want something like that, have a daily prestige mission that pertains to PvP. That acts as a daily challenge and makes players at least acknowledge the existence of PvP as it's right up there with "missions". This also doesn't force people to play lockdown if they don't want to, and if the mission of the day is for blast network it would work great. "Get 10 kills in blast network in a single game" could work. "Capture 5 points in lockdown" would be another. As your rank increases, so does the requirements. Like, as a rank 4-1, prestige might be "Get 3 kills in blast network" and award 30 prestige. For a rank 10-1 player however, it would be "Get 15 kills in blast network" and award 90 prestige. The mission would be the same for everyone on that day (Blast network kills), so you would have an influx of players playing blast network. The next day it might be "lockdown captures", and people would flock to lockdown.

Possible prestige options:

  • Kills (Blast Network)
  • Damage (Lockdown)
  • Captures (Lockdown)
  • Defends (Lockdown)
  • Win X Free for All games (Blast Network)
  • Win X Team games (Blast Network)
  • Win X games (Lockdown)
  • Obtain X rank points (Blast Network)
  • Obtain X rank points (Lockdown)

However, to try to catch prestige farmers (which wouldn't be a big problem, honestly), there would be a few requirements for prestige to be active:
Blast Network: There must be a total of at least 15 kills from all players.
Lockdown: There must be a total of 12 captures across all players, and at least 24,000 damage across all players for tier 3, 12,000 for tier 2, and 6,000 for tier 1.
Do those requirements seem fair? Essentially I want to make sure these happen in real games, opposed to rigged games. Perhaps in lockdown there needs to be at least one of every class across all players? Or at least 2 classes be present? Maybe have a minimum damage/captures/defends per person? (Which might be a bad idea, as I've seen players get captures and no damage/defends before) What happens in a normal coliseum game that would be hard to replicate without simply playing the game?

Thu, 12/11/2014 - 05:33
#22
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros
Oh ! it looks like what

Oh ! it looks like what missions are supposed to be ! I mean ..it looks like what I expected the missions to be. That is to say missions, tasks to accomplish in the normal game , instead of special areas that are generated by the mission and that you just have to follow straight as they actually are.

But, we exceed the topic, we won't rehash the whole mission system. However, your idea requires a complete different sort of mission that is more close to the current achievements ( not rewarded though).

I mean, I would totally agree but I think it would require almost as much effort as creating new bots. We should ask a programmer .

Let me think about something in real games that is not replicable in rigged games...

Cooperation?

I don't have much time atm, so I will answer more precisely later.

Thu, 12/11/2014 - 12:05
#23
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Not really.

At least in the lockdown that I've seen, most teams are a mash of strikers who seem to only care about their personal performance and their damage numbers, and everyone else. What's sad is that those damage hungry players will not jump onto an objective for the team if it means they will likely go down in the process. Cooperation will only happen between organized teams, and most random lockdown games do not have organized teams. If there is an organized team against an unorganized one, the organized one will win.
However two organized teams can both try to get the prestige, which is what I want to avoid. Perhaps for the prestige to not be obtainable in guild matches?

I was using things already in the game as an example before. They would be much easier to code as the base and numbers are already there. Adding new things in like "deathmark 3 players at the same time", "deal 5000 damage at 25% or less health", or "prevent 3 captures in one game" would be fun to add in, but would overall be harder and take longer to program as it requires some completely new code.

Fri, 12/12/2014 - 23:51
#24
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
i agree..

i just notice you are right fangel. in sk, we do not have daily prestige mission that pertains to pvp. Their should be some to attract a better or bigger crowed to these games (especially to tier 1). This would really get game addicts like me on the gerbil Ferris wheel. We really need this in sk.

Mon, 12/15/2014 - 11:07
#25
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros
In random lockdown games, I

In random lockdown games, I always try to win, that is to say to lead my team victory by capping, telling them where to go , when to uncap, etc , but I must admit that most of strikers in rld only care about their personal performance no matters their teams. Still, I sometimes manage to get teams which spare my envy of winning and cooperare to reach it. These are these few games, with often end up in close scores that I'd like the new players to be able to experience.

Also, why not allowing these prestige to be got in gvg matches? What would earning it with organized teams remove to the original purpose?

Mon, 12/15/2014 - 12:11
#26
Tech-Star's picture
Tech-Star
+1

Support!

Mon, 12/15/2014 - 21:35
#27
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum
@Val

If you could do it with organized teams, you could organize two teams to win-trade and get infinite prestige.

Mon, 12/15/2014 - 21:43
#28
Deleted-Knight's picture
Deleted-Knight
Or...

We can make a new symbol that appears by your name (perhaps on the opposite side as your prestige symbol) that represents the total coliseum points you have earned.
It's not a reflection of skill whatsoever but it does tell other people who is an avid coliseum player and who isn't. New players will notice the symbol on veterans and ask about what it is, just like how some people ask about the horse head symbol for people that have highest prestige.

Mon, 12/15/2014 - 22:39
#29
Ganzfeld-Effect's picture
Ganzfeld-Effect

I'm going to cast my vote for just adding another wing to Haven called "Coliseum." It would have buildings that, like the Guild Hall, when you walked into them would bring up the menu. This way, it lets people know there are in fact PvP modes while also letting them discover it on their own.

There could be signs outside each building, or an NPC that gives information about each game so people aren't going into it totally clueless.

Mon, 12/15/2014 - 23:02
#30
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Not bad

@King-Cerrin: not a bad idea to create a building and an actual location for the Colosseum like the hall of heroes so that players can know where it is and this could be a good excuse to create a new city/place in haven strictly for he coliseum lol.

Tue, 12/16/2014 - 08:09
#31
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros
+ 1 to all of your

+ 1 to all of your suggestions. Actually, I think there are a lot of ways to make new players aware of the existence of the coliseum . What we must try to determine is which one is the easiest to code, that takes the least time and still make them have interest and fun !

I'll try to list all the different ideas that were mentioned in order to make it easier to sort out.

Tue, 12/16/2014 - 10:50
#32
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
We need a LD

We need a LD academy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl7mTT8JlnM

Tue, 12/16/2014 - 14:38
#33
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros
A LDemy...I'll rule it!

A LDemy...I'll rule it!

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