The weapon rules are interesting, but I don't know how well they lend themselves to balance. I do like the weapons as power-ups idea, however, so I have a suggestion of my own.

Every weapon equipped by every participating player is becomes a power-up, found like any other power-up, in lucky boxes that spawn on the map. When the match begins, each player has only one of each Proto weapon equipped. For PvP balance, three weapon slots would be unlocked for each player. To use any weapon other than one of the starting Proto weapons, you have to collect it. The catch, however, is that everyone's weapons have been distributed across the map, and anyone can use any of them. Picking up a weapon replaces the weapon you are currently holding. Barring armor, this ensures everyone is on a level playing field when the match begins. To balance match progression, all of the Proto weapons can start at level 10, while any of the other weapons start at level 1. Alternatively, the starting level of a weapon is based on its rarity, with rarer weapons starting lower. Large amounts of heat can be found in lucky boxes and dropped from enemy players, and heat is applied instantly to all of your equipped weapons.

Being able to lift other players sounds like a bad idea, to be honest. I can see chain throwing (and ring-outs if they exist) being the easiest and most common way to kill other players. It would require some tricky balancing, but doesn't really add a whole lot to the game. Being picked up would easily be one of the most frustrating things.

Maybe instead of making lucky boxes throwable, some special pots could be made that can contain items. Maybe there could even be mystery pots. What's inside? A heart? Fire? Only one way to find out...

I still don't really agree on the player-throwing. It doesn't exist in PvE, so I don't see any justification for adding it just for PvP. If you're getting hit in a corner, the shield should be sufficient for escaping if it can knock back players the way it does monsters. If you're getting flanked, picking up another player will do more harm than good anyway.

I'm not quite sure what you mean with weapons. With the idea I presented, the players are essentially choosing the power-ups that can appear, but everyone still starts with basic weapons. I suggested locking everyone to three slots for PvP because you would start with three weapons and because everyone should have the same amount for balance reasons. It would make a much bigger difference in PvP than it does in PvE.

In actuality, though, any of these special rules for weapons are better suited to a specific mode rather than to standard PvP matches.

I only suggested adding item-containing pots instead of throwable boxes because it would be much easier to implement and less confusing to players. The same rules apply everywhere: pots must be thrown, and boxes must be attacked. The effect is still similar: you'd have the option to keep a pot's contents for yourself by smashing it against a nearby wall or throw it at an enemy in case it contains something bad.

Shields have limits, though. You can try to turtle with one, but it won't last forever. I use the shield constantly even when attacking in PvE. Slash, slash, block. Slash, slash, block. I don't think it should be taken away. Without a shield, you're only options are to mash the attack button or run away. If shields end up being too powerful in PvP, their resistance can be decreased.

Sorry, I didn't specify. The weapon power-ups aren't limited in supply. So if somebody brings a Cryotech Alchemer Mk II to the fight, that's an item that anyone can find. Even if only one person brought one, every player could end up with one. It's basically just checking everyone's equipped weapons to determine what weapons are enabled to spawn.

All I meant by "standard PvP" was the default mode of PvP in Spiral Knights. I don't know what you thought I meant. The standard mode (the default and probably ranked one) should have the most "normal" rules.

Implementation aside, changing the rules on how boxes behave can be confusing to new players. Why even have pots if boxes are also throwable now? Confetti can easily be added to pots containing good items. It's good to make as many rules universal as possible. If there needs to be an object that is both attackable and throwable, it should be a new object.

>Yeah, but if the shield recharges, all people will do is just run around until it recharges.
>Nobody will ever deal any damage.
>PvP should encourage skillful play, not feature abusive play.

So you're saying that players will run around until their shield recharges, but by making the shield even more limited, players will turtle less? I can tell you right now. If the shield was a power-up, I would avoid other players until I got myself a shield, and if another player had a shield, but I didn't, I definitely wouldn't go anywhere near that player.

If you don't time the shield properly and counter-attack when necessary (skillful play), your shield will break more quickly. If anything, using the shield as is promotes less turtling because you can move towards enemies and still have a way to protect yourself.

Blocking in Street Fighter isn't considered abusive play. Learning how to get past your opponent's guard is as important as getting past their attacks. In Street Fighter, if you couldn't block, most players wouldn't take many chances. You would focus on keeping your enemy as far away as possible.

>If somebody doesn't bring in any contributive weapons, though, that decreases the available weapon pool and lets a player take advantage of the lack of usable weapons.

I'm not sure how you take advantage of the lack of usable weapons. You can practice with the proto weapons all you want, but they deal the least damage. I was thinking more along the lines of you can choose a powerful weapon if you want, but it gives other players the same advantage. The spawn-rate of weapons wouldn't have to change based on how many different weapons are able to spawn.

>So what you're saying is everything different is bad and you would like to play a standard mode where punching calculators is all you do?
>Because that's a terrible idea.
>'Standard' PvP would only work in large numbers, like GvG.
>And even then there's no guarantee it wouldn't suck.

Woah, woah, woah. Where did I say being different was bad? You've obviously got some presumptions about PvP that I'm unaware of. Maybe this would be easier if you stopped putting words in my mouth. I'm all for casual modes. Those are the modes I would be playing the most. I'm not a hardcore PvP'er. However, a lot of players are. If you want PvP to have lasting appeal, there has to be a competitive, ranked mode for guilds to participate in. I don't know why you keep mentioning calculators, but let's try this: you tell me what you think "Standard PvP" means.

>Your shield doesn't regenerate in PvP, instead it deteriorates and breaks until you pick up another shield power-up.

>You've got two choices, try to turtle and die, or actually do something.

I understand what you're suggesting, but I'm arguing that people will turtle more (by running away) if they don't have a shield they can rely on.

>You also can't move when you block in Street Fighter. You can also go through people blocks with high/low attacks. Blocking isn't a surefire defense against attacks, just an opportunity to cash-in on your opponent's predictability.

You move more slowly with your shield up, which makes you a lot easier to hit, and you can only take so many hits before it breaks. Even with a regenerating shield, if it breaks, other players can wail on you, and you won't be able to get it back until you escape, as an attack that breaks your shield also damages you. Just like in fighting games, blocking isn't a surefire defense.

Without a shield to rely on, what does a sword-user do about projectiles? A gun-user could hole up in a crevice, shooting anyone who approaches. No one can approach if they can't block the attacks. If he has some decent cover, shooting at him won't even work. With a shield, you can block a few shots while running up to him to get into sword range. Then he starts blocking, but already being in a corner, and having nowhere to run, his shield is going to break, and then he's really screwed. So in this case, the shield allows for and encourages more aggressive play. Standing in a hard-to-reach area and shooting continuously is turtling. Blocking shots as you approach a target is not turtling.

Giving players more defensive options encourages more aggressive play because it allows players to take more chances.

>Regenerating health is frowned upon in FPS

Is it? The most popular FPS games have regenerating health or shields. Halo, GoW, TF2 (if you have a medic), and well, they're still popular.

>The less chance somebody has of finding a powerful weapon, the more time you have to chip their health down.

You say that as though you're unable to do anything until you find a good weapon. You'll still have level 10 Proto weapons before you find anything else.

>They won't know that there's the same chance of them getting another Proto weapon as there is their own weapons.

Since you start each round with Proto weapons, Proto weapons wouldn't spawn. If they did, they wouldn't exactly be "power-ups", would they?

>Still, the system is too luck based anyway, since matches rely entirely on people bringing in decent weapons.

To me, it adds a strategic element. Do I bring in my Vog's Fang? It's pretty good, but someone else might find one, too. Maybe I can bring in this other weapon. It's not as powerful, and it's rarely used do to its strange attack pattern, but I've gotten good with it. If someone else finds one, they might not make great use of it.

>That and if PvP required you to give everybody else your secret weapon, very, very few people would participate in it.

Secret weapon? Give? You don't have to give anything up, and I don't think there will be (or at least I hope there won't be) any weapons that are so tremendously more powerful than all the rest. And if there were, giving a player exclusive access to that weapon (assuming that player is the only one who actually has it) would give that player a great advantage during the match.

The objective is to put everyone on a more level playing field, as this would be a more casual setting. (Maybe a mutator?) In a more competitive environment, you'll want to allow players to choose whatever they like for themselves. If they want to farm for days (assuming they would ever need to) to get the stuff that's ever-so-slightly better, that's their call, but there should also be a more casual "fun" mode for those of us who'd rather avoid the overachievers.

>WoW's Arena.

>If I have to say anymore, then your opinion is now invalid.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize WoW was the be-all-end-all definition of what "Standard PvP" was. Apparently if we have anything so much as called "Standard PvP", it means we're going to add in a talent tree and skill system so that everyone can min/max their specs. To me, "standard" means nothing more than the word "standard", as in "ordinary", "regular", "default". The default mode that people play regularly should be the most ordinary one.

How much number-crunching can one even do in Spiral Knights? Let's say I want to specialize in bombs. Okay, I take the Heavy Demo gear. That's... about it. It doesn't even give me a huge advantage against those who don't specialize, unlike WoW where a player who has done all the math is going to destroy a player who hasn't every single time, regardless of individual skill. That's actually an important part of that game, but it's not a part of this one.

And while I never played WoW's Arena, I won't deny that a lot of people are very fond of it, and it's one of the many things that keeps WoW so popular.