Obsidian carbine gets competition from the new Sentenza (numbers given, discussion expected)
Jue, 12/04/2014 - 14:30
OC lvl5
bullet: 84
with poison: 94
charge: 186
with poison: 196
Sentenza lvl5
bullet slime: 84
bullet gremlin: 102
charge slime: 186
charge gremlin: 215
Jue, 12/04/2014 - 14:40
#2
Your comparisons already show
Your comparisons already show more damage against slimes if they get poisoned, even without UVs. Once you get dmg max that makes it better in general, and the poison effect will always make it better in LD than sent. I don't see how any of this points towards it being worthless.
Jue, 12/04/2014 - 14:45
#3
agree
I agree that Sentenza's slightly better gremlin bonus does not obsolete Obsidian Carbine in any way. OC is useful for spreading poison. Sentenza's damage bonus is obsoleted by large damage bonus from other sources, which advanced players typically have.
Jue, 12/04/2014 - 15:30
#4
IMO
Before this update there really was no reason to use Sentenza due to Obsidian Carbine having the poison. It's nice to see Sentenza a bit more viable now esp. against gremlins but as long as Carbine has its poison its still a great utility gun esp. for poisoning those pesky menders. I also find Carbine fairly useful against constructs as well. If anything Sentenzas gremlin high evens out the two guns instead of one completely overshadowing the other.
Jue, 12/04/2014 - 16:30
#5
↓
Sentenza is now better vs gremlins [unless you get damage vs gremlin ultra from elsewhere].
OC is still more powerful vs everything else.
The major change was that prior to the most recent patch... Sentenza and OC were equal vs gremlins [if you poisoned them].
Jue, 12/04/2014 - 16:59
#6
Carbine is still better, unless family bonuses deal extra bonus damage to families now. Like, if vs slime max means more damage than dmg buff max. That's not the case right?
Jue, 12/04/2014 - 18:09
#7
I'd still hesitate to call them balanced with one another, when you consider that poison doesn't just lower their defenses- it also turns menders against them. That's what makes obsidian carbine a good weapon to begin with, that it can let you strafe and shoot to victory without murdering the menders first. The damage factor is really nit picky, and an extra 4% damage isn't going to magically make sentenza "better"... it might be better for casual encounters on levels like the roarmulus twins now, but at the same time it probably won't matter which one you bring for that anyway.
Jue, 12/04/2014 - 21:51
#8
With the Iron Slug. You don't have to care too much about menders (as long as they don't use their aoe heal). It's pretty simple to charge-spam through their heals. If menders shield, snipe them at near maximum range for a guaranteed three hits on the charge attack, which is like 900 damage.
Iron Slug ftw~
Jue, 12/04/2014 - 22:58
#9
Considering that the OC only
Considering that the OC only (reliably at least) gets poison on the charge the only real places to have it is in arenas where the minute poison chance can work in your favor (since it is easier to wittle down the monster count with poison), in nonpoison slime lairs (where the charge is viable against the slow monsters), and on sets with maxed damage.
Sentenza pulls ahead against OC against gremlins when not using damage boosting armors.
My personal advice is to get the Edge or the Crusher and to save the Carbine for last, the poison is unreliable, and the charge is very risky (with sentenza you aren't tempted to use the charge).
Vie, 12/05/2014 - 00:14
#10
OK. So lets pretend for a moment that someone wants a 6 shot shadow damage handgun. They've got their 4* black hawk and they're going pew pew pew and they ask what they should turn it into.
If they get carbine:
Better versus slimes AND construct/beasts AND fiends/undead, if any of those appear or get hit
Better against gremlins if they try to self heal at any point and are blocked
Better against gremlins if you have damage stacked onto it
Hammering away at a mob will kill it through any and all healers, though it might take a few hits to pull through
Charge is much better, as it allows you to poison areas of enemies and doesn't get stuck as easily
If they get sentenza:
Better vs gremlins by.. 20% prior to poisoning, and 8% after poisoning, if they have zero damage boost against gremlins
And you're arguing that it being a bit better against gremlins suddenly makes it the better choice for this player? That you would say "yes, go ahead and craft sentenza, obsidian carbine is basically redundant thanks to that massive 12% damage bonus against gremlins."
You're really going to tell them this?
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 04:04
#11
^rekt
Fehzor efective as always.
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 07:02
#12
I sense a disturbance.
Fehzor used logic!
It's super effective!
Regardless, just because setenza is better against grems doesn't mean it's the better gun. By that logic the decon bomb is better than nitronome. And it ain't.
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 07:07
#13
Revisting this thread only to find Janeks' not very interesting post, I realise the answer to this thread.
Yes, Obsidian Carbine is obsolete. Blackhawk is the best Antigua.
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 09:37
#14
@ Fehzor
I'm pretty sure we have the Argent Peacemaker and the Raptor to deal with 2/3rds of the monsters you listed so that makes mentioning them pointless seeing as we have antiguas for those situations.
You also have to take into account how reliable the poison chance is on the OC, it is terribly low and the Sentenza is capable of spitting out damage just as fast.
If the OC poison rate was fairly high the choice would be easy to make.
The only time to use the OC is when you are in dire need of a Counter to healers (in which the Obsidian edge is far more reliable), Maxed damage sets, or in non poison slime areas.
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 10:29
#15
"dire need"
The only time to use the OC is when you are in dire need of a Counter to healers (in which the Obsidian edge is far more reliable), Maxed damage sets, or in non poison slime areas.
That's like saying that the only time to use Sentenza is when you are in "dire need" of killing gremlins possibly slightly more quickly, and you have very little damage bonus, and you don't have a better weapon such as Acheron, Obsidian Edge, Umbra Driver, etc.
If you want to arrive at truth through argument, then you have to seriously engage all sides of the argument.
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 12:24
#16
Perhaps the thread title
Perhaps the thread title should be reworked.
Before the update the OC was the clearly better choice with poison and nearly the same power as the Sentenza it was obviously worth the investment. With a usefulness almost on par with the other obsidian weapons it was clearly superior.
Once the Sentenza got buffed the OC now doesn't seem as godly a weapon as before.
The Crusher is obviously better since it is used as a synergizing weapon, the Edge is of course viable since it is a brandish and can deal that powerful poison with it's easy charge. The OC though has low poison chance on it's regular attack and it's charge is made for a few situations, the Sentenza now buffed is some real competition.
When it comes to killing gremlins use the Sentenza to chase them down, use the OC if a mender shows up and just use a Gorgofist, or grim repeater for the slimes.
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 13:21
#17
So is the damage table screwed up on the wiki? Because it says Carbine and Sentaza do the exact same damage.
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 15:33
#18
@ Klipik
All standard Antigua lines get a High family perk now instead of Low on the 4 star and Med on the 5 star.
OC isn't standard Antigua so it didn't get a buff; hopefully it will get a poison chance buff.
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 18:43
#19
But if a target is not-gremlin, not-undead and not-poisoned, a Carbine is supposed to do less damage than an AP or Sentenza right?
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 19:00
#20
If we're bringing other weapons into this, then sentenza is going to be looking pretty pointless in almost every situation... as Bopp and you yourself said, weapons like umbra driver and now grim repeater, winter grave, phantamos are quite simply better at dealing damage than sentenza.
Damage numbers from training hall, with no damage boost-
Sentenza: 130 per hit, as many as you can sneak in
Blitz vs beasts = grim repeater vs gremlins: 110 x6 normal; 229 x15 charge
Umbra driver vs gremlins: 191 x2 + ricochets; 361 + 191 for each ricochet, can easily be over 1-2 thousand
Callahan vs beasts = winter grave vs gremlins: 397 per charge hit
In order to beat sentenza against gremlins:
Grim repeater: must be able to use the charge, or get in a good number of shots such as completing a combo at point blank
Umbra driver: must be able to get in any ricochets
Winter grave: land a charge
Obsidian carbine on the other hand at least brings SOMETHING to the table, as it is one of the safest weapons to use while taking down crazy situations with multiple gremlin menders the likes of which we have never seen before. You shouldn't rely on it alone for such a situation, but it would at least benefit you to use it there over other strafe + shoot type weapons.
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 20:52
#21
@klipik
Sentenza and OC have
@klipik
Sentenza and OC have the same damage, sentenza just has a gremlin perk and OC has a slight poison chance.
@fehzor
You can't always think straight numbers, gremlins can be quite a dodgy bunch of monsters and with the thwackers and mortafires sporting shields you can't go in blindly pumping out bullets. Antiguas, pulsars, and blasters may not have the damage that the autogun, alchemer, Magnus, tortofist weapons do but their speed makes them easy to use and less punishing if you mess up.
Ease of use is an unwritten factor when it comes to weapons and should also be factored in.
Lun, 12/08/2014 - 23:18
#22
@Krak
You can do that with
@Krak
You can do that with nearly any weapon (I say nearly, because some weapons like alchemers don't seem to have a bullet-dissappearing explosion like other guns. For example, at the right distance, a callahan/blitz/sent etc. Can destroy those grass patches on an open field, while alchemers cant (I dont think).
But yeah, Ive seen people do it with many weaps. Easiest with bomb like Nitro, harder with AP/Combuster, etc.
Mar, 12/09/2014 - 10:41
#23
Yeah sure, but nothing is as safe as a Blackhawk. It obliterates rockets, whereas other weapons will require perfect timing, distancing, et cetera.
Mar, 12/09/2014 - 21:27
#24
SAME damage?
Then why would you ever go Sentenza, unless you were going to be attacking solely gremlins and had little or no damage boosting armor/perks/trinkets? The high family bonus makes this all the more true, because if you have damage bonus VH+ you're wasting the family boost instead of Ultra+.
Also Magnus hits gremlins fairly reliably. Just not when the T3 ones decide to never face you for no good reason.
@Krakob I blew up a rocket with a WRH the other day and didn't take any damage.
Mar, 12/09/2014 - 21:54
#25
exactly
Exactly. That's why many of us concluded, before this update, that Sentenza was simply worse than Obsidian Carbine.
After this update, Holy-Nightmare is asking: Does the damage bump from +2 to +3 make Sentenza no longer simply worse than Obsidian Carbine? And it appears that many of us answer: No. Sentenza is still simply worse than Obsidian Carbine. But it's a reasonable discussion to have.
Mar, 12/09/2014 - 22:33
#26
Sentenza has it's niche
Sentenza has it's niche uses... C42 is a good example (Toxoils end up poisoning gremlins and here you should focus on status immunity not damage buffs). Sentenza also pairs well with obsidian edge (on sets built around sword buffs) as the weapon to pick off anything that survives the Edge charge attack (seeing as you already have one for poison).
The biggest selling point about the OC is that on a max damage set the secondary effect doesn't become useless.
The Sentenza suffers the same fate as many other specialist items (too much effort to make something that is only really strong less than 1/6th the time).
Exactly what has changed? As we already know, we can obsolete the bonuses and make OC an objectively better gun.