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Iron Slug or Callahan

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Golden-Champion

Iron Slug or Callahan?

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Flowchart

if you're only making one, Iron Slug. But both are worth making. Winter Grave too.

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Bopp
damage type

There are some slight differences --- freeze on Winter Grave --- but it seems to me to come down to damage type. If you want just one of them for use in many situations, then go with normal damage. If you might want to equip two of them at once, or pair them with other guns, or whatever, then get piercing and shadow but not normal.

One consideration is that the charge attack can hit several monsters in a crowd. Therefore, in some situations, you'll be hitting monsters of multiple families. And then arguably normal damage is easier to use than non-normal damage. This kind of argument applies to Nitronome too.

In another thread (it doesn't matter which, there are so many redundant threads about this stuff right now) Orbwanter opined that Iron Slug was the better choice for Firestorm Citadel, because you're already carrying Blitz Needle, and you want a gun that can handle slimes and constructs as well as undead. I'm not a fan of this argument, but you might consider it.

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Qwez

I think the question is more about choosing between Iron Slug/Callahan and Winter Grave.
Iron Slug and Callahan fill pretty similar roles, except the Iron Slug is good against Lumbers, Lichen Colonies, and is still generally powerful. Callahan would be better for Fiends though. But as far as how to use these weapons, Iron Slug and Callahan are identical (deal damage, knockback, and stun). I do not know if Callahan knocks enemies back more or less than the Iron Slug.

Disclaimer: I do not have the Winter Grave. This is mostly speculation based off of my experience with the Triglav and the fact that the Winter Grave has a good chance of moderate freeze (similar to brandishes with their good chance of strong status).
The Winter Grave is a very different weapon with Ice instead of Stun; just like how the Triglav is a very different weapon from the Sudaruska (however it seems like the Winter Grave vs Iron Slug will be much more different than Triglav vs Sudaruska). If the Winter Grave acts as the Triglav does (freezes enemies in place before knockback), you have to be careful about close-range charge shots, and awareness to not get yourself backed into a corner. The freeze will nullify knockback, causing you to not deal much more than a few hits per target (maybe it's different for large enemies). The only time where your # of hits will be similar to the Iron Slug is at near maximum range, where you'll probably get 3 hits on the charge attack. Maybe it's different for large enemies, but I don't see the Winter Grave getting the ohko Lumber Iron Slug charge on Elite with 2 people at near maximum # of hit potential dealt with med damage bonus.
The Winter Grave will probably be more of a mobile Shivermist Buster.

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Orbwanter

IMO, it comes down to whether care more about the regular or charge attacks. If you don't have much CTR and the regular shots are more important, I'd rank them Callahan > Winter Grave > Iron Slug, whereas for Chaos users it's the opposite order.

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Klipik-Forum
@Qwez

I have the Tundrus, and I think it knocks back at least once before freezing. That said, it has a really good chance of freeze, so if you shoot at a group of enemies they're about as likely to get frozen as if you were to drop a shivermist in there. It has great CC. Similar to the Glacius it has slightly less damage potential because it won't necessarily deal the full number of multihits (Which by the way is some insane number like 7), so that's the trade-off.

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Bopp
good points

Qwez, you raise good points about the freeze reducing knockback, just as it does for Glacius. And thanks for your comments, Klipik.

Orbwanter, I don't understand your ranking at all. Please explain more. My plan has been to have CTR+6 and carry both Callahan and Winter Grave. Why isn't this a good plan?

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Parasthesia
i'm a huge proponent of the

i'm a huge proponent of the iron slug being best bang for buck, and then filling your other weapon slots with specialized damage. It's like carrying a neutral damage brandish and having greater versatility in other slots instead of carrying two brandishes that you have to switch back and forth between.

After using iron slug in SL Snarbolax post-update, my opinion of the pierce Callahan is that wolvers are going to teleport around too much to pull optimum use out of the gun charge, and the normal attack may have knockdown but lacks DPS and that same knockdown power in 4 man elite parties. Callahan charge is very good for destroying silkwings and Pit Bosses through crowds of enemies... But other fiends will destroy you while you're slightly immobilized. To me, callahan's usefulness now generally falls behind Slug and Grave, with either having more value per slot.

i still need to test Grave's usefullness versus slimes and gremlins though. Might be worth the knockdown and freeze versus gremlin mortars and thwackers who get up in your grill, as well as sniping pesky healers through crowds, with freeze setting them up for easy pickings if you don't get the OHKO.

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Bopp
I can verify

I can verify that it's not easy to hit wolvers with new Callahan charges. When I fire into a crowd of six wolvers, hoping to inflict a massive wave of damage on at least four of them, I instead hit about one of them. The others teleport away, or appear to be in the splash but don't actually get splashed. Disappointing.

But I'm more interested in Callahan against fiends than against beasts. I never worry about beasts killing me, but fiends are definitely able to kill me if I play badly.

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Whimsicality

The speed nerf of the charge projectile is most apparent against Fiends and Beasts because both are highly mobile in nature and will be more likely to run around randomly. They still get hit by regular attacks as per the usual.

The piercing effect of the charge attack is apparently most useful against larger and/or slower moving enemies, such as, but not limited to: Lumbers, Giant Lichens, Gremlin Schorchers, Chromalisks.

If you only want one of the guns, I say Iron Slug. But there's no reason not to get them all!

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Orbwanter

Orbwanter, I don't understand your ranking at all. Please explain more. My plan has been to have CTR+6 and carry both Callahan and Winter Grave. Why isn't this a good plan?

Callahan's regular attacks work well against enemies that are weak to piercing, but the charge attack only nails Chromalisks, Gorgos, and maybe solitary Greavers if you get the jump on them. Devilites tend to either dodge the charge or throw a projectile at you while you're recovering. If you're primarily spamming charges, the piercing damage is doing little for you, but if you're pairing it with Winter Grave you'll probably be fine.

Iron Slug's shots are still ineffective against everything except 0-defense enemies like Howlitzer heads, but the charge attack is strong enough that hitting for neutral damage isn't much of a downside.

Winter Grave (theorycrafting here, haven't made one) has shots that are excellent against Gremlins, but shooting slimes can be risky if they fire their roots while you're well, rooted. The charge attack's freeze makes it good for crowd control but can prevent it from achieving Iron Slug's raw damage output.

Basically, Iron Slug is Sudaruska, Winter Grave is Glacius, and Callahan is a Flourish. They fill different niches despite being mechanically identical, which I like a lot.

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Bopp
well-reasoned

Thanks for your well-reasoned comments, Orbwanter. I'll take them into consideration.

It seems that fundamentally Callahan is still a weak gun, even after this update. Boo.

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Qwez
how2Magnuscharge

General tip: draw a line from the back of your target, and try to line up your shot along that line as best as you can. That line is the path that the enemy will travel.

General Case: Enemy attacks by facing your direction, moving in your direction.
Step 2: wait until the enemy is about to attack (having enemy aggro is important so that the enemy is attacking you)
Step 3: release the charge for at least 3 hits on smaller targets. 10 more more possible on larger enemies. I've gotten maybe 4-5 on Alpha Wolvers.

Case: Enemy is not facing your direction (eg. aggro'd on a teammate)
Step 2: position yourself to at a couple blocks from maximum charge-bullet range
Step 3: release charge for guaranteed 2-3 hits

Case: Devilites
Step 2: release charge half a block to a block to the left or right of the Devilite. Devilites tend to dodge towards the side that you shot for whatever reason. Generally will hit.

Case: Gorgo
Step 1: stop using the charge attack. If you really want to use the charge, you have to predict their sideways movements. Often when they're about to attack, Gorgos will slide in the direction that they're already moving. Rarely will they attack forwards at you.

For everything except for fiends, patience is key. Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes.

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Klipik-Forum

Magnuses after the patch are like Autoguns before: Good charge, bad normal attack. Sadly Autoguns now have both...

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Bopp
so you disagree

So you disagree with Orbwanter, who says that Callahan's charge attacks work badly against most piercing-vulnerable targets.

Portrait de Holy-Nightmare
Holy-Nightmare
Callahan charge wrecks

Callahan charge wrecks chromas and can work on wolvers too if you are patient enough to wait till they pop up behind you and commit to a bite.

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Midnight-Violet
:3

I'm going for Callahan first considering that ASI Med on the Magnus I got, but looking forward to the other weapons.

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Bopp
Holy-Nightmare

As I mention in post #8, I'm more concerned with Callahan's performance against fiends than against beasts. So what is your opinion there?

(And keep in mind that I've owned and used Callahan for about three years. I just want to know what other people have figured out about how the new Callahan works.)

Portrait de Holy-Nightmare
Holy-Nightmare
Devilites are easy to lock

Devilites are easy to lock down with the regular shots, for greavers just keep moving and place a shot when you can (typical gunner problem with greavers), if in a party just spam charges against gorgos (or just bring a Needle gun, gorgos are always such trouble for gunners and sword players), Trojans are you typical bait and then punish tactic (its just slower than soloing with a blitz)

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Bopp
which is best against slimes and gremlins?

I've figured out what my real question is: Which is better against slimes and gremlins --- Iron Slug or Winter Grave?

They seem to have the same baseline damage. Winter Grave has the advantage of damage type. One stuns and the other freezes. In general I prefer stun to freeze, but that's not my main concern here. My main concern is that due to freeze the Winter Grave charge attack misses some opportunities for damage, as pointed out already by Qwez, Klipik-Forum, etc.

So I wouldn't be surprised if Winter Grave's charge did less damage to slimes and gremlins than Iron Slug's charge. Anyone have anything to say about that, specifically?

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Exerpa
Iron Slug and Callahan (and

Iron Slug and Callahan (and Biohazard) share the same relative damage, so its reasonable to assume Winter Grave does to.

So far, getting the occasional frozen gremlin can be handy for preparing a fatal charge shot, providing of course you are fast enough to spot it and not break them free from an additional shot.
Freezing could be handy to extinguish oilers, if the charge doesn't kill them at least they should be knocked away from oil fires?

I'm beginning to feel that the WG is the underdog of the gunner update.

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Bopp
one-shot-kill play style

To clarify, I'm specifically interested in a charge-oriented playing style, where I run around releasing charges that kill crowds of enemies in one shot. This style is popular with Brandishes. After the update, some players are saying that the Magnuses are the new Brandishes. So I'm trying to evaluate the extent to which that is true.

Basically, is Callahan + Winter Grave the new Combuster + Acheron? Or does Winter Grave's freeze mess that up? I guess it's more like Glacius + Acheron.

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Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

it seems when I see people use it the knockback comes before the freeze