Forums › English Language Forums › General › General Discussion

Search

(Spoilers?) Pay Sparks to Win: The Holiday minigame?

15 replies [Last post]
Wed, 12/17/2014 - 18:35
Whitechocolatechip's picture
Whitechocolatechip

Warning: Post may contain tactical spoilers. Also, it's pretty TL;DR

Aight. So I was originally incredibly tempted to make a post about the absurdity of gremlin assassins and how their cloak negates all status effects (Freeze with winter grave? Unfrozen. Poisoned with maskerwraith because of healers? Unpoisoned. Hit with giant freight-train power attack from Callahan? Somehow, yes, phased through.), and then I got to the 3rd ambush on floor 2 a 2nd time, and I'm just not even sure what to make of it.

Let's review what exactly you're staring down the barrel of the moment you walk into the room:
-2 respawning missile puppies. Because those guys just never get old.
-2 respawning ice turrets. Okay, not too bad, they've had plenty to date already, and they can be hid from with ease.
-2 Assassins. I can't even begin to guess whether they respawn, since you can't keep a healer off their tails for long and they spend 99% of their time invisible.
-1 Giant, periodic shield using battlepod.
-1 respawning gremlin mage.
-Possible thwackers and holday-themed greavers.
-Snow that falls from ceiling for simulated stun effect, wheels on the ends to access the boss, and enemy-traversible-only passages to make sure trying to give the baddies a slip or get an upper hand is not physically possible for more than 29 millseconds or so. Maybe 30, tops.

Can I be the first to ask: What? I've been to shadow lairs, I've seen my fair share of abuse of unrealistically difficult challenges, and unfortunately this is nearly identical to ice jelly's difficulty. For entering a shadow lair, you're basically already coughing up a large wad of cash/time to pay for the key, so sparks and whatnot aren't too absurd of an addon for mandatory price to be payed, and hey, that's post-endgame content with really feasible rewards...

But for holiday reskinned items? This is a pretty shrewd way to limit item gains. The rewards aren't really anything to pay an arm and a leg for- heck, tortodrones only had a couple of "new" items acquired through 99% raw butt ache (because they spank everyone, frankly) and shroud of apocrea had insane hours and effort too, but poison-laced shadow weapons are really handy. But for a reskinned flourish? or a Nova? I'm incredibly skeptical it's even worth considering.

Went in my first go, blew about 10 sparks because "hey, I never use 'em, tis the season" before declaring at final fight it was a money pit dug by OOO. Then practice, application, and dedication- and I found my way back into the 6th ambush with zero sparks, a tactical arsenal, full health and a 12 piece vitapod, pills, shields, a curse potion, so forth- after hours of diligent practice and experimentation with my diverse arsenal and a good helping of luck along the way (found a healing turret in 5th ambush, for instance. Big life saver)...

I told myself "hey, I got this far with a bit of elbow grease and re-evaluation- who knows what I'll discover about this fight. Maybe it's much more practical than I thought." Secondary spoiler alert: it wasn't. I'm still convinced it's a money pit for people paying (potentially, as I have proven) infinitely more sparks to get 2-3x the loot.

So I come here to ask.... why would anyone waste the time? The resources? And everything else into just scoring some extra item bits from the table to slanted, you can't keep anything on top of it for a moment's time? Honestly, I'm left with nothing. I'm 1/5th the way to the resources needed to produce whatever holiday junk I'd want, and I have no incentive to actually give enough of a crepe and complete the rest of the raid. Why bother?

Edit: Feel obligated to say digging money pits is okay and I don't condemn them. OOO overall has possibly the single coolest F2P policy I've seen coupled with possibly my favorite action MMO I've seen- they deserve a secure paycheck.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 20:21
#1
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
Sorry, but you're wrong.

Sorry, but you're wrong. There have been sparkless runs. (Even deathless Elite solo runs)

I don't see what the issue is with people asking for the game to be harder, and OOO delivering it, if only for a short period of time each year. BTW remember when this mission first came out we didn't have Torto shields, awesome guns, overpowered Acheron or Battle Sprites, so it used to be even harder.

P.S. Try bombs, and don't go solo..

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 20:30
#2
Skepticraven's picture
Skepticraven
↓

I've done deathless runs on elite.
Proof.

The iron slug changes sure makes it even easier.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 21:37
#3
Whitechocolatechip's picture
Whitechocolatechip
@Hexzyle oh, I don't doubt

@Hexzyle oh, I don't doubt it's possible, I just doubt that 99% of the population will ever be able to do it without bringing sparks, buying a vita/pills upfront and relying on sheer numbers to overpower infinite respawns. Let it be known I largely despise infinite respawns simply because they often render a lot of less-than-perfect approaches completely impossible. Coupled with intentionally nerfed heart and item drop rates, infinite vs excessively finite seems like a real chokehold tactic.

@Skepticraven yeah. Deathless and at full HP in a party full of people who are horribly mangled and carrying no emergency revievs. I've done enough SL runs as the guy who stays alive competently along with team mates of lesser survival rate to say that having your team mates act as decoys and sponges so you yourself don't have to get overwhelmed is much less of a feat than doing the same in solo. Still, an excellent finish in itself.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 21:48
#4
Skepticraven's picture
Skepticraven
↓

Technically, no one used a SoL on that run. Someone was just claiming that it was impossible in another thread last year, so I took a random picture in the many runs that I dont die in. It was hardly them sponging up damage. Maybe next run that we all have the ER active, I'll have to take a picture.

I join and carry public parties to the second depth [usually while they lie dead] just as practice. Maybe you'll catch me in a party just to see how wrong your assumptions are.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 22:48
#5
Noxiousnarwhal's picture
Noxiousnarwhal
Just did a solo run without

Just did a solo run without sparks - I'll try to get one recorded and uploaded with some commentary in the next few days, but the most important weapons were umbra driver and (oh god I can't believe I'm saying this) plague needle. I packed along a couple mixmasters for good measure, but they didn't get nearly as much use as the other weapons. Plague's worthless in pretty much any other run, but has felt almost essential for grinchlin assault solo runs because of how tanky the enemies can be with mender support. As far as the boss room itself goes, position the rocket turrets to face the back wall and stay at the bottom until the boss becomes targetable. It should only take you a few rotations to defeat, as long as you are picking off menders.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 22:56
#6
Whitechocolatechip's picture
Whitechocolatechip
Eh, it's hardly worth the

Eh, it's hardly worth the effort. I'll play at it just because I'll be loading up on mats for the event anyways. Maybe get myself a seasonal bomb or something, but I really just hate when OOO finally attempts to expand the difficulty and it's a totally different sense of difficulty. I can finally put my finger on why I hate so many of their difficulty experiments- they don't feel spiral knights in a lot of senses.

They could get meatier enemies, more diverse attacks, smarter and more complex enemy formations- heck, a lot of those already exist within the realms of the event, they're just coupled with I would categorize as failed experiments:
-Tortodrones. Hey they, have a unique damage table in a double bossfight, and health drops somewhat routinely... except their attacks are built in a spammy and 0 windup manner, completely unlike everything else SK... so you either manage to stay out of every form of crosshair all at once, or you get buried underneath multiple consecutive shock artillery spreads.
-Apocrea, because having a ghost chase you around a graveyard and spam random hands using their failed tentacle attacks (as in if it spawns under you with its 0 warning, let's just call it a melee hit...) with a literal deathray attack from its eyes. Not to mention all the issues met with invis/shield completely bypassing its attempt to lock you down and kill you. Also, completely inconsistent token drop rates and ghost physics that are notoriously buggy when combined with latency, which you can expect during major events.
-Ghost in the machine's tentacle and laser using boss. Buggable, broken with tentacle attacks once again, and very very boring coupled with an absurd amount of firepower needed to level the boss, and then babysitting his minions. You win by some combination of hiding in a corner (which, additionally, everyone discovers because it's instinctive in nature), bugging the minions into the BP's buggy collision box, and using hilariously slanted effects from multi-penetrating weapons. I own a CTR Divine Avenger, so I can speak that is disproportionately effective vs the boss.
-The occasional Mary Sue or borderline Mary Sue enemies. Gosh, a good number of these keep cropping up, and it's not as much the difficulty as much as having no weaknesses lacks a lot of character and definition for the enemies, so they just seem boring, absurd, and remind you you're in a video game all too much. "You've been placed under some sort of ancient, powerful curse!" "I used cloaking technology, nah I'm good". A trojan will feel like a more reactive, realistic enemy in how it's slow and high powered, and even the often more challenging devilites are squishy, because they're fast and not tough. It really emphasizes the features of the character.

There are things that really tick me off both because they can be done improperly or they just can't be done in the old style of the game in at least a few senses. I'm looking forward to the day they produce a more standard flavor of challenge that's just finally inflated to a level where it still challenges the players. I would prefer a wall of 8 missile turrets instead of 2 that come back to life in a matter of seconds. Vana did a decent, prolonged bossfight based on HP and minions as well, but that was a matter of minutes, and the minions take more time to dispose of, so focusing on ads feels like a duty rather than a nuisance. I dunno, maybe it's just my taste on things.

Wed, 12/17/2014 - 23:07
#7
Turn-Me-On's picture
Turn-Me-On
@Whitechocolatechip You just

@Whitechocolatechip

You just need some more experience man.

Just some pointers:

For Ghosts in the Machine: Stay in the corners of the arena. Tentacles are easy to dodge, as are the lasers. Everyone knows this though, so just blitz or antigua charge when you get the chance.

For Apocrea, dont run in parties. Run solo: When you are solo, you can use the dash as soon as the Hentai Reaper spawns, and he will never attack you until he despawns and respawns again (Dash, then run into his gaze: he will wind up for his attack, then fade into the ground). This will not work in parties cause his aggro is restored or something.

For tortodrones, just blitz from a distance, and wear shockproof armor. If in a party, retreat if injured and heal. Not too hard if everyone is blitzing.

No clue what Mary Sue enemies are.....

I agree with your overall point that difficulty needs to be increased with smarter AI, not just HP and damage increases alone.

Respawning enemies are legit

Thu, 12/18/2014 - 00:57
#8
Whitechocolatechip's picture
Whitechocolatechip
@Octalash er wat. I never

@Octalash er wat. I never said I couldn't do those lol.

For all three of those, that is literally what I did and why I came out victorious. I never said I had issues completing those, because I didn't. I was the guy running T3 solo and doing well with dodge/cloak and optimal spirit hunting gear on elite while my guild mates hid behind T2 and T1 party invites for normal difficulty. Tagged along with one once, I laughed SO hard at the decreased token rates. I do all the danger missions, solo, on elite, almost exclusively without dying literally every day. I do crave challenge, but all of those listed points don't satisfy because I'm not getting tougher SK, I'm getting another game's combat philosophy implanted into spiral knights. There are games with no forewarning on enemy attacks and that don't care if you get caught in attacks with no warning, but spiral knights doesn't do that 99% of the time, so why change that instead of just improving within the tried and true bounds?

My overall point is just this: Why make a holiday mission at shadow lair-like difficulty (if you've been to a few, you'll realize a lot of trends in enemy formation and how they use fast-respawning enemies on a dime) for just reskins of normal loot? Yes, people can do it. People can run it flawlessly, and people do, this can be said for both SL's and the holiday events. I've seen a party-wide flawless torto run by T2's before lol. But most people just pack a crapload of sparks, grit their teeth, and suicide squad to get their gear and never go back again. SL's were okay to suicide squad, because they were costly, they had unique, envious rewards for both usage and bragging rights, and they made you fight for your gamble in things. This is just going in, maybe failing, maybe getting far, maybe winning sometime later after practice and application, but the rewards are utter crap, and the raw difference in time needed and difficulty between the first and second floors (although both are possible and quite capable to get very far in consistently with only a few hours' practice) really just either screams you're there to win the suicide squad with as little suicide involved as possible or you're a moron for poorly allocating your time in an already time consumptive grinding process. I can run that first floor 2x as fast as getting to stage 3 in the 2nd, because there is less division and hijinks, it's just straightforward ambushes with some respawns vs divided, complicated ambushes you want to play through step by step ideally.

Overall, it makes little sense. Why go through the grinding process at all? Very little reason, really. The holiday stuff is more work than getting 25K CR and getting the recipe yourself, AND it'll look more fruity along the way. I tend to not take people who demand difficulty too seriously. There are plenty of people that can do everything with 2 weapon slots and 0 trinkets, but for every one of those there's 9 people that have "bought in" and bring all the game-defeating trinkets (C42 is too easy, please buff ~Guy who intentionally made himself immune to poison and fire) and whine that the game is too easy after forcibly ripping the difficulty straight out of its chest. For the people that can solo it all without buffing yourself up, solo, on elite, I'm happy for you, but I also know the curse of having very little, if anything, in the game left of challenge to you, and maybe you do deserve a harder, meatier challenge now and again, but I will continue to disagree on the styles at which OOO brings to the palette with 90% good and 10% raw annoyance. And that is just a preference thing.

Thu, 12/18/2014 - 04:24
#9
Parasthesia's picture
Parasthesia
What? Complaining about

What? Complaining about pay2win about Reskins and a barely defensive trinket as a reward?

Thu, 12/18/2014 - 05:12
#10
Jmmoormann's picture
Jmmoormann
I don't understand the problem

There are always people complaining about the lack of difficuly and that the only real challenge, SL's, are locked behind a paywall. Suddenly we get a similar challenge which isn't mandatory to get certain gear, completely free and requires serious teamwork. If you don't like the challenge it offers don't do it, but don't start complaining because of either the lack of challenges or the challenges themselves.

Thu, 12/18/2014 - 05:24
#11
Gigaslash's picture
Gigaslash
I sense a disturbance.

This is more of a quantity over load than difficulty.

Thu, 12/18/2014 - 05:26
#12
Whimsicality's picture
Whimsicality

I CTRL+F'd "I'm mad because I'm bad" and it came up with 0 results. Let's change that...

Thu, 12/18/2014 - 06:11
#13
Malware-Exe's picture
Malware-Exe
Now individually

i'm= 13 results
because= 17 results
mad= 3
bad= 3

Thu, 12/18/2014 - 09:29
#14
Jungle-Sword's picture
Jungle-Sword
yes, grinchlin is hard

but it shouldn't be nerfed and it shouldn't be made harder
I mean EVEN I was able to do the first floor solo on elite no spark, and I only had one trink. (2nd floor I totally failed >.<)
What you need is a good team, good coordination and you have to know which enemies spawn new waves. Then you are pretty much set. But I agree that the payout isn't necessarily worth it....especially after going through so much trouble and nerves >.<. That's why I mostly just do the first floor, the end gives enough loot.
Little tip for the mission in general: don't be hasty!!! take your time!!!wait for those wheels to pass....and you don't have to kill everything in 5 seconds! take your time!

Thu, 12/18/2014 - 10:39
#15
Noxiousnarwhal's picture
Noxiousnarwhal
@whitechocolate

There are two missions though - the impostoclaus one is more casual, but the grinchlin assault is meant to be tough! If they made it so that anyone and their grandma could do it flawlessly on their first try, it'd just be a boring grind. As it stands, it's a fun mission that really tests you positioning and skill, with the added benefit of giving you materials towards reskins as well as some pissballs and the occasional trinket.

Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system