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Arcana VS Argent Peacemaker

14 Réponses [Dernière contribution]
Frozen-Beats

I've had previous Knights before with the AP and found it to be useful so I'm looking for a change. My first was the Arcana but I'm not sure how it compares damage wise. Would love some thoughts on which is better for PvE.

Frozen-Beats
I'm also open to the storm

I'm also open to the storm driver or other elemental alchemer lines if they are better.

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Fehzor

Arcana does more damage over a short amount of time, but argent peacemaker has slightly better DPS and a slightly upgraded ability to hit switches, blocks et cetera. Arcana is definitely the more well rounded however- neither gun has a reputation for high damage and both guns are great at hitting switches, but the ability to deal short bursts of damage (and knock enemies away) makes the gun a bit more versatile.

EDIT-

The drivers are less good at hitting switches and blocks as they bounce around triggering things but have much higher damage when used correctly. When you get the ability to charge them (as in charge spam them with CTR max for guns) they'll become incredibly strong when used at a range.

If you're going to use guns as your main weapons you'll want to at least look into them. If you're using guns with swords or bombs, arcana is a decent option as you won't need to feed it damage and charge time reduction.

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Bopp
not data

I haven't had a chance to gather new gun timing data, so I don't know exactly how fast these guns fire. But you can look up the damage tables on the wiki, at least.

We have a lot of threads that end up comparing elemental guns. Try searching Google (not the forum's built-in search). Here's the quick version:

* Argent: easy, moderate damage, usually unsafe charge attack, very boring
* Arcana: easy, moderate damage, knockback, very boring
* Polaris/Wildfire: hard to use well, moderate damage, high knockback, really a crowd-control weapon
* Nova Driver: hard to use, high damage in the hands of an expert, interesting
* Storm/Magma/Hail Drivers: like Nova, but trade some damage for status
* Omega Tortofist: hard to use, ? damage, interesting, somewhat hard to obtain
* Overcharged Mixmaster: powerful, but very difficult to obtain

I recommend Nova or Storm, because I like interesting and powerful weapons.

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Holy-Nightmare
@ Bopp

I would like to give some more insight to your list

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* Argent: easy, moderate damage, usually unsafe charge attack, very boring
This gun has very low damage per bullet in comparison with other guns but with 6 in a clip it's total DPS is fairly high. The problem is that it takes 6 clicks to empty the clip meaning you will be clicking furiously to get that high DPS. In addition to this the charge attack requires much prediction to even be viable, in fact it has moderate damage which isn't bad but the fact that it roots you to the ground longer than an Autogun charge without the immediate spread of knockback or flinch means you WILL take damage if you don't predict perfectly.

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* Arcana: easy, moderate damage, knockback, very boring
This gun is basically an elemental Valiance and should be able to fill nearly any need against elemental weak enemies. It's DPS is fair and it has knockback on every shot, the damage is respectable enough to make it work and the knockback keeps it so that you usually have some room to move. The charge isn't that powerful and should only really be used for it's knockback or to open up in a fight.

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* Polaris/Wildfire: hard to use well, moderate damage, high knockback, really a crowd-control weapon
Polaris and Wildfire are very different guns due to the single factor of the status they deal. The Polaris deals shock which makes it effective at hindering enemy movement and dealing high damage to large crowds of monsters that it shocks and herds. The problem is that the shock status can work against it by preventing it from pushing enemies away.

The Wildfire deals the same amount of damage per bullet as the Polaris but it deals fire status instead. While shock is great for taking out tight knit crowds of enemies fire deals more raw damage making the Wildfire better in situations where you can't keep the enemies all in one spot or in 1v1 scenarios. As a tradeoff for more raw damage though fire doesn't prevent the enemy from moving sometimes, for a gun that is mainly about knockback this is a good thing since you can predictable push enemies around.

The damage of these guns is fair and the charge attack should be used much like a Valiance charge, to get needed breathing room and to open up a fight.

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* Nova Driver: hard to use, high damage in the hands of an expert, interesting
* Storm/Magma/Hail Drivers: like Nova, but trade some damage for status

The elemental drivers are great guns and each have their own niche. Drivers have relatively low DPS but high bullet damage this means that their uses revolve around switch shooting to bypass the small clip restriction and by using the charge "exploit" to deal high spread or single target damage.

Nova can deal massive damage on the charge and with no status you have higher DPS than other elemental drivers, however with no status you can't synergize with teammates or take advantage of monster status weaknesses.

Magma drivers are excellent guns due to the status, since it doesn't hinder movement you can make more certain predictions about enemy movement and hit them hard. You can also use the "Fire and Forget" strategy provided there are no healers and try to keep as many enemies lit on fire at a time to increase DPS.

Hail drivers have very mixed reviews but the general agreement is that they aren't as good in PVE as other drivers. The damage they deal is comparable to other status drivers but it's own mechanics often work against itself as it alchemizes up. Once it is a driver it will create ricochet bullets on every shot, each of these bullets are spawned to shoot off at random angles. The problem arises due to the mechanics of the freeze status, often a ricochet bullet will break the freeze status you inflict.

Storm drivers are the middle ground of Magma and Hail drivers. The status it deals has lower DPS than fire but it slows enemy movement like freeze. All in all a good driver but shock can make predicting enemy movement a bit tricky.

Be sure to turn off AT when using alchemer charge to get the best damage.
http://i.imgur.com/LYbzKL8.png

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* Omega Tortofist: hard to use, ? damage, interesting, somewhat hard to obtain

The Tortofist is an interesting gun to have, it is almost hard to classify as a gun though. This weapon has potential to deal enough damage to compare to autoguns but it has some downsides too. This is what I would classify as a weapon that almost MUST work with another specific family of weapons to be most viable. To be more specific this weapon functions best when paired with a Sudaruska or Sealed sword line weapon. Tortofists are made to spam the charge attack the regular attack is made to push enemies into the incoming crystals of the charge attack, with a heavy sword you have a lot of control over enemies and can easily push enemies into the danger zone.

Note: The impact zone of the crystals seems to be similar to the code in the Vanaduke fight that determines where Shadow fire will fall. It will almost never fall on top of the target but with a heavy sword and some prediction you can put them there.

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* Overcharged Mixmaster: powerful, but very difficult to obtain

A good elemental weapon but the chances of one obtaining it is slim to nothing. I would classify this as a bit of a mix between the Arcana and a Storm Driver. It can pummel enemies with regularity like the Arcana but it lacks knockback and deals shock like the Storm Driver. The charge attack is a bit like the Arcana charge but with shock instead of knockback.

My Recommendations: For practicality I would suggest the Arcana just due to it's wide amount of uses and lack of serious drawbacks. For second place I would suggest any elemental driver except the Hail driver.

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Krakob

Fehzor says Arcanye West is worse at hitting blocks than AP. I disagree. While you can shoot stuff quicker, Arcanye West is Arcanye Best because it has bigger bullets, which means you don't need to aim as accurately and can at times hit multiple things at once. This means that some shots you shoot with Arcanye West will hit switches where AP would not have hit even with the same aim.

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Bopp
Holy-Nightmare

Holy-Nightmare, I mostly agree with your expansion my summary. Thanks.

I have nothing against Arcana, except that blasters are so very dull --- even on the charge attacks.

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Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

For the tortofist ? Damage i think a good fit would be high damage in the hands of someone who's moderately experienced with one
Like knowing how to push enemies with normal hits, shield canceling the spin in the charge animation, predicting shielded enemies, stuff like that someone will learn in a week

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Holy-Nightmare
@ Vohtarak & Bopp

Working with tortofists starts with knowing the basic movement patterns of enemies and their reactions to bullets. Learning this takes far longer than a week but if you already have this it shouldn't be too hard, if you don't then I would steer clear of tortofists.

Part of the reason why I suggested the Arcana is that it offers you a bit of insight into many gun classes. It has the speed of an AP, power like a Magnus, and knockback like Pulsars. While it doesn't excel in these areas quite like these other guns it can provide useful information on how each type can be used.

Like how I did not go after the Gilded Griffon due to past experiences when combating the Dodgy Gremlins with the Sentenza (and later the Obsidian Carbine). Instead I went with the Callahan (pre GU), "THE CALLAHAN?!?! you ask. My reason was simple, I wanted to be able to flinch them at a distance and from what I learned with my Valiance I knew I needed something faster so after watching people play LD for a while I watched a guy messing around with a Callahan, and I noticed it's bullets were much faster than the (at the time) metagame Valiance.

Sure Blasters are boring but they are reliable and good for feeling out how you want to play the game.

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Bopp
not convinced of the learning value of the compromise

I think I understand your point that blasters are a compromise among these three other gun types. But the compromise ends up being so different that I'm not convinced that using a blaster helps you use these other guns.

* Arcana's rate of fire is nowhere near Argent Peacemaker's, is it? (Before the gunner update it certainly wasn't.) And the clip size is different, so your firing pattern to avoid reloading is different.

* On regular shots a blaster may have the power of a magnus (does it?), but magnus regular attacks are nothing to brag about. The point of magnuses is the charge attack, which are very different from blasters' charge attacks.

* Blasters have some knockback, and that is often useful, but it's very different from pulsars' knockback.

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Thagx
@bopp

I agree with bopp

Frozen-Beats
So for your fist gun which

So for your fist gun which would pick? Arcana, Storm driver or Argent Peacemaker. The advice has been helpful with other gun choices.

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Carbinus
@ #11

@ #11
I would pick storm driver personally.

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Bopp
response

So for your first gun which would pick? Arcana, Storm driver or Argent Peacemaker.

You've already had Argent, and it's not especially good. So you might as well not get that.

Are you a very casual gamer, who wants a gun that "just works", without requiring any skill? Then you might be frustrated by alchemers. Get Arcana.

Or are you a more serious gamer, who is attracted to weapons that reward skillful play? Then you will be bored by blasters. Get Nova or Storm.

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Holy-Nightmare
@ Bopp

It's the similarities that prepare you for other guns. As stated in my post I know that they aren't the same.

Blasters shoot fast and have a good sized clip but not as much as antiguas. That doesn't mean that you can't practice kiting and watching your remaining clip.

Blasters have fast bullets but not as fast as Magnus bullets and they don't really have knockdown quite like Magnus either. Prior to the GU this was the selling point of magnus guns, the speed and the high flinch rate.

Blasters have some knockback which means you can practice a bit in herding enemies or closing off chokepoints with that knockback but a pulsar in the same situation would do a better job at that (just with slower bullets).

It is also important to note that usually guns are used as finishers to battles rather than the sole damage output. Antigua guns are great as finishers due to their speed and range; they can easily pick off a monster you Brandish Blasted away.

Guns like Alchemers, Pulsars, and Autoguns are typically the main damage dealing weapon (or crowd control in the case of pulsar) for gunners and require a bit more skill.

Arcana is a gun that is the middle ground between the two, it works well as a finisher gun but with it's respectable damage you can still put it on a gunner set.

Guns like Magnus and Tortofist are good weapons to synergize your loadout. A sword combo usually flinches and enemy and if you follow it up with a regular magnus shot you can get a second flinch in usually. Tortofists work best with heavy blades that can push enemies into the gun's spikes.

Basically you have to get a gun that fit's your set's needs, or build a set around your gun.

Alchemers? Chaos and swiftstrike lets you get that CTR and damage which is needed for these low clip guns and lets you switchshoot easily and more effectively.

Autoguns? Try some of the GU gear since they benefit from any gun buff

Antigua or Blaster? Try the Pre-GU gear to maximixe your speed or damage

Pulsar? An excellent sidearm for Sword users or Bombers to counter ranged enemies

Tortofists? Get a defensive Hybrid Set to boost your sword ASI and Gun CTR. (defensive to help counter any problems this gun may cause while learning to play it)

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Basically you should try out numerous guns, all of them if you can. After all this is a game and limiting yourself to just one playstyle will limit your enjoyment.