winter grave or iron slug?
Jue, 06/02/2016 - 16:19
so far, I really enjoy my callahan, once I finally decided to dust it off and put it to use. now I want to make one of the other two to have another magnus-style gun for piercing-resistant enemies.
my question is, should I make winter grave or iron slug first? from what I heard so far, winter grave is great, but suffers from freeze decreasing the charge damage, while iron slug is just an all-rounder.
Jue, 06/02/2016 - 20:29
#2
all magnuses are great, but Winter Grave...?
All magnus-style guns have great charges. As you know, you have to aim at the front of the monster, so that it gets knocked back along the path of the projectile.
Winter Grave's freeze is just frustrating to me, because it stops the target from riding the whole charge attack. That's not a deal-breaker, because the end of the charge attack does so much damage that it alone can kill many monsters. But you have to aim the charge attack so that it hits the target at a long distance, close to the end of its range. This makes the aiming of Winter Grave quite finicky, in a way that I don't enjoy.
So I guess I recommend that you get Iron Slug. Which sadly makes your Callahan largely obsolete. (I wish Winter Grave were poison or something like that.)
Vie, 06/03/2016 - 03:56
#3
if you want a single new one
+1 for iron slug, for the same reasons bopp stated and its overall usability (pretty good in DaN and the tortodrone event)
winter grave is good to get after that, you can still manage a lot of damage on groups, large enemies, and there's the distance shot bopp also mentioned
Sáb, 06/04/2016 - 03:34
#4
Hmm.
Winter Grave might be preferable in case they nerf the quite frankly ludicrously overpowered charge attack. It's also purdy.
On a totally unrelated note, selling a Winter Grave recipe.
Sáb, 06/04/2016 - 03:49
#5
The charge attack would be a perfectly balanced payout for the previous movement reduction and self-stun the Magnus charge used to have. If anything, those should be brought back.
Dom, 06/05/2016 - 04:28
#6
+1
Agreed. I'd probably buff the primary attack a touch too.
On an unrelated note, I hate how you run at full speed when charging alchemers nowadays. It feels off somehow.
Dom, 06/05/2016 - 06:50
#7
Winter grave is a pretty amazing gun. What it doesn't do is one shot things that are facing the bullet perfectly or deal damage to zombies/fiends, which are two rather nice features that iron slug has over it. I'd recommend getting them both, starting with iron slug.
I don't think slug is over powered, actually. It's a devastating weapon but well, people opt out of using it quite a bit.
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/114803
Notice how there are maybe 2 or 3 loadouts that feature slug in that thread. That's it. The majority of people chose brandishes, which are almost a straight downgrade in terms of raw power... why? Because of the tradeoff for learning how to actually use iron slug vs just using a brandish or two. The people that are choosing to use it are people like me, Bopp, Jessecho.. people that have been playing the game for long enough to make good use of it.
What we really need is to balance the bombs and swords so that there are good options like slug for those weapon classes. Warmaster rocket hammer comes the closest for swords and shard bombs for bombers, but neither are as impressive as slug.
Dom, 06/05/2016 - 09:18
#8
brandishes vs. magnuses
The majority of people chose brandishes, which are almost a straight downgrade in terms of raw power.
Magnuses have several advantages over brandishes. I know that you hedged your statement with "almost", but let's take this opportunity to enunciate the advantages of brandishes over magnuses:
1. The obvious: The target need not be facing into a brandish charge.
2. Predictable hitbox: Magnuses have a weird hitbox. I would even say buggy.
3. Melee safety: When monsters are in my face, I'd rather beat them back with brandish regular strokes than with magnus regular shots. Of course, this is just swords vs. handguns. And I'm not the best switch-shooter around, so I might not be taking full advantage of the magnus shots.
Dom, 06/05/2016 - 15:40
#9
"and shard bombs for bombers"
Wat
Lun, 06/06/2016 - 06:43
#10
@Bopp
That's basically what I'm saying. You trade ease of use and melee hits for higher damage.
@Zeddy
Shard bombs are kind of the more skillful bombs, they just don't reward it. If you don't count invincibility frames in, you out-damage blast bombs and dark briar barrage as well as deal status effects. It's a moot point since there are invincibility frames but hey, maybe the developers do care about bombs and will give us an update or something.
Mié, 06/08/2016 - 23:50
#11
While Winter Grave's freeze chance can stop enemies from riding the length of the charge, an enemy being frozen by it will leave it wide open to be hit by a second charge attack. It's also fantastic for stunlocking Gremlins and shredding the Royal Jelly and the Roarmulus Twins. Since you already have a Callahan, using it and the Winter Grave in the same loadout will allow you to deal strong damage to four of the enemy types while dealing neutral to the other two. Iron Slug is by no means a bad weapon, but I'd personally prioritize Winter Grave first.
Disclaimer: I haven't used Iron Slug, but have extensively used Callahan (which lets enemies ride the charge like Iron Slug) and Winter Grave. Take that information as you may.
Jue, 06/09/2016 - 03:52
#12
as someone who has owned all 3 (sold the callahan)
Id say go for iron slug first for all around usage, then get the winter grave later to expand your arsenal (having all 3 heavy guns comes in handy)
anything I would say in the way of specific explanations has already been mentioned by the above posts, so thats about it for my input
Sáb, 06/11/2016 - 12:46
#13
Aren't normal type weapons usually mediocre unless it's all you can afford? I mean you have two slots at minimum, so there's no reason you should need a single "all around" weapon when you can just change to callahan/winter grave depending what enemies there are...nothing in the game resists both of them.
Sáb, 06/11/2016 - 15:39
#14
@Batabii
Iron Slug's charge is so incredibly powerful that the special damage only adds a small fraction. (Special damage adds a fixed amount, as we've discussed). Normal damage is only mediocre on weapons with low damage per hit, which is sadly the case for most normal weapons.
Besides, on levels mixing enemy types (GitM, Concrete Jungle, FSC), you'll either have to fill two slots with what is effectively the same gun or take a heavy damage penalty against whichever enemy you didn't bring the right Magnus for.
This is not even bringing in that an Iron Slug charge will typically do more damage to Slimes and Gremlins than Winter Grave precisely because Slug will not freeze enemies in place, and if you're first crafting the normal damage gun you might as well stick with it.
Callahan's normal shots are still the excellent vs fiends though.
Sáb, 06/11/2016 - 15:57
#15
agree
The Iron Slug charge does so much damage, against all monster types, that it calls into question the value of damage types altogether.
Similarly, Acheron does so much damage against beasts, that it calls into question the value of piercing against beasts. But this is not a fatal design flaw, because beasts are too easy to worry about, and piercing is valuable against fiends, which are difficult. As a knight damage type, piercing is fairly well balanced.
Ever since the gunner update, I've been considering rewriting my sword guide so that it is no longer organized around damage types. It would instead be organized around monster families. But then I have trouble not bringing Dark Briar Barrage into it.
Mar, 06/14/2016 - 22:06
#16
So you're saying that Iron Slug's charge does more damage than callahan's on neutral targets?
That doesn't sound right.
Mié, 06/15/2016 - 00:18
#17
No, it's the same amount of damage. Let's bring up the Lancer Knightz data:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lancer_Knightz_(Guild)/Handgun_Damage_(Depth_24)
349 vs neutral, 414 vs weak, 67 against resistant.
That's a HUGE loss against constructs and slimes, but barely over a
1/7 gain vs fiends and beast enemies. You might still think that's a lot, and it's not bad, but consider max damage bonus:
464 vs neutral, 529 vs weak. Proportionally, the difference is small. Consider that there are no heavy enemies weak to piercing (outside of Vanaduke, of course, but if you're specifically crafting a gun for Vanaduke and it's Callahan you're doing it wrong) and you'll see that there's just no point when iron Slug can one-shot everything anyway.
Now I'm all for owning a Callahan and even a Winter Grave, but that's mostly for the normal attack against fiends and gremlins, respectively. If the only reasons you wanted Magnus was for the charge attack
, it only makes sense to go for Slug.
Mié, 06/15/2016 - 05:15
#18
nope
So you're saying that Iron Slug's charge does more damage than callahan's on neutral targets?
No, I didn't say that.
You've pretty much got the whole of it. I like Winter Grave in Compound 42, but I really, really like Iron Slug in Ghosts in the Machine.