Spiral Knights - Will gear ever get balanced or is "Challenge Mode" going to be exclusive to clone gear?

Will gear ever get balanced or is "Challenge Mode" going to be exclusive to clone gear?

28 replies [Last post]

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 19:19

Zeddy

So there's an upcoming Challenge Mode. We don't really know what it entails, but there's going to be a scoring system and chances are you'll be able to score more point by killing more things faster, because that is how score systems in videogames tend to function. The challenge mode is going to feature rewards for 'exceptional players', so it's in the best interest of those participating to perform as well as they can.

That means throw away your winmillion.

Iron Slug? Vendor it.

Shard bombs? Enemies not taking any damage half the time is not efficient, discard them.

Catalyzers? Probably worthless.

Any armour that does not start with "Chaos"? Not worth a damn. In a PvE game where there is a "glass cannon" set and a bunch of sets that are not "glass cannon", the "glass cannon" set will always perform the best for efficient killing and higher scores. Chaos or bust. Good luck getting a slot on a competent team without full chaos or a black kat cowl.

Drakon user? Better open the supply depot and shell out for a new sprite. An efficient team has no room for skills with 40-second cooldowns that can be completely gobbled up by a single, shielding mecha knight or a wall behind the user. There might be some room for seraphinx users to use angelic aura for the purposes of bypassing spike-floor puzzles, but this'll mostly be a Maskeraith-dominated affair.

Not even Lockdown is this narrow when it comes to viable equipment for winning. You can make meaningful contributions to the opposing team without wearing any gear at all, but this won't at all be the case in Challenge Mode. So I ask this: Is gear going to be balanced at all or should we be naming this mode "Chaos Brandish Race" and be done with it?

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 19:44

Traevelliath

I wouldn't be surprised if the challenge mode encourages something other than Chaos TBH.

Oh people will always try to brute force Chaos into everything. However there is only so much survivability you can give up, especially when the challenge ramps up.

EDIT* weapons on the other hand... Yeah...

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 19:52

Zeddy

I could only see anything but Chaos being viable if you get some total cheatmode enemies like toxoils. That is, pretty much just covering every inch of the battlefield in status at all times.

If the challenge is fair, you could avoid hits by nitrospam or haze bombs, at least.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 19:57

Klipik-Forum

@Trav

You will always be able to brute force Chaos into any situation until they fix sextuple(6) max status resist UVs.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 20:24

Glacies

There could always be a multiplier penalty for those who use powerful gear (Brandish-line/Chaos) along with specific stats (ASI/CTR/DMG) and a bonus for using something under-powered such as a Winmillion or Proto-Gear.

Honestly, if they are doing challenge mode, I'd rather see pre-made loadouts much like I've been suggesting with Lockdown. It'll allow everyone fair-on-fair usage until someone figures out what the most optimized loadout and we just end up seeing the same class over and over.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 20:35

Sweet-Hope

Maybe before start saying "this would be op and this would be op and this and then and this" should wait to OOO to announce the game and the mechanic, because this thing happened before the update of sparks and orbs which i should admit i wasnt happy with that until i played the game already with the Update and they did a great job with it. same with the sprites.

we should wait to see how they can balance that before assume we going to use our own gear, maybe we dont even going to use our gear since OOO want to be a balanced game and we can have a llite fatih on them that they learned how Lockdown is unbalanced now and will try to fix that on this new chanllege.

maybe they can do it on the way as Glacies says, maybe they going to give us a default gear for that chanllege so everyone can have a fair chance to win (except in the side of internet lags and those stuff)

maybe they can do it in the way of "these gear are banned from this game:" which going to end in gear of: wolvers, gunners, chaos, bomber, making those armos with defenses without damage bonus being only used in the mini game.

maybe i just dreamed about the post or maybe i dont read it pretty well, but didnt Nick say before implement lockdown what kind of game we would want for the next pvp? i remember he says: a game with a game mechanic like mario party or a pure PvP game (which lockdown born) i dotn remember if he says that. but maybe we can expect the new game "chanllege mode" with it own pre made gear and stuff we going to use so would be a fair game and not "LOL CHAOS LOL SKOLVER LULULUL WIN WIN"

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 20:37

Fashama

Be careful, this post could include personal opinion!

There is no need to heavily flame the Chaos set since you don't have a crystalsphere. The status disadvantage could be the absolute no-no if there are many status effects. And why do you don't complain about people with Unique Variants? They have a much bigger impact. But no, criticize the less rich people which want to use the Chaos set. I think more that the standard Wolver sets (Skolver, Snarbolax, maybe even Vog Cub) will dominate if these areas are very dangerous.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 20:38

Batabii

Wild Mass Guessing...

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 20:39

Doctorspacebar

It's a Concrete Jungle out there

The hit limit has to go. Shard Bombs have got quite the skill ceiling involved in predicting what you can while at the same time dodging the mobs due to chaotic knockback. They ought to be more damaging than Dark Retribution.

Anyway, pre-set loadouts sound like the way to go. Who knows? They might be like the Ability Challenges from Kirby's Return to Dream Land, where you'd push a single Copy Ability to its limits to get the quickest time possible- only, in this game, it's your weapon.

...although, Zeddy, didn't you say Catalyzers were "weapons of mass destruction" if used properly? This was in Shard Squad, though...

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 20:43

Fashama

Be careful, this post could include personal opinion!

"a game with a game mechanic like mario party"

This would be so awesome! I seriously hope that this is the case. It could be so much fun, and now imagine the great music which Harry Mack would extra compose for this... I have the "awesome music" creeps again :) Hopefully this will be something with a great replay value.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 20:59

#10

Khamsin

Once the players are good enough to have the challenges on farm status with standard gear, probably. That's the way it goes in any MMO - first you try to clear, then you put it on farm, then you try to power through it as quickly as possible.

Really the only issue is that chaos is the definitive offensive set - I don't know why it got such a substantial buff. I would have rather seen zerker sets for swordie and gunner comparable to mad bomber, rather than a cover-all set. You don't even have to specialize at all with chaos - everything automatically has max CTR so you can use a blitz, a shiver, and brandish, then equip some damage trinkets and you've got maxed out damage.

Tue, 09/10/2013 - 23:29

#11

Zeddy

@Doctorspacebar

Catalyzers are quite powerful, but the problem is that they don't really excel in any area where vortex+OP sword charge wouldn't be faster.

@Everyone else
I'm gonna to say it right now, in this post, so I can link to this post when the update releases sometime in a distant future:

There will not be gear multipliers.

There will not be a limit on Chaos and Brandishes vs other gear.

There will be no restrictions on UVs.

Doing any of that would be OOO flat-out admitting they derped up their balance and haven't bothered to lift a finger to fix it.

Pre-made loadouts to suit the challenges could be a thing. It means they could set up some interesting puzzles and fights tailor-made for certain attack patterns. On the other hand, it also means people wouldn't be rolling UVs and crafting gear to roflstomp challenges optimally. It would also make challenges get stale after a while.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 00:33

#12

Kamishinlnoyari

No balance.

I don't think OOO will balance anything. By "balance" I mean nerf. Chaos: could have CTR Med and Dmg. bonus Low. Brandishes could deal pure elemental damage so some stubborn clones won't use them vs. Gremlins because they'll be useless (I've seen many *facepalm*), and a damage nerf would be nice.
Now, there's a BIG problem: the clones will whine A LOT, they're many and they're greedy for damage. Without their super OP gear they may ragequit. Whenever someone asks what gear suits them best (in The Arsenal subforum), everyone says "get Chaos, you'll learn to dodge, that's the only armor". Most people don't have a chance to try other armor and weapons. That's the reason why I'm here, though.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 02:39

#13

Crossproduct

The only scoreboard that

The only scoreboard that matters in SK is who has the most cr/ce and didn't pay $$$ for it. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 02:52

#14

Zeddy

Why's that important?

What if I had a million crowns but spent it on a Black Kat Cowl? Do I rank below the guy who just has a million crowns?

Do you automatically lose if you buy OCH?

Do you lose if you buy 1000 CE with your credit card and then use that energy to play the market and turn it into 100 000 CE?

Where can I find a list of people's crowns and CE, and how much of those riches were not in any way influenced by credit card purchases?

Why is your ability to operate the auction house the defining scoreboard in a co-operative action game?

I have so many questions.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 03:47

#15

Krakob

I'm hoping we'll see a survival mode. That'd be a lot more balanced than a kill fast thingy or something. Defensive gear would be just as viable as offensive in that case, I'd say.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 08:45

#16

Momofuku

If challenge mode resembles anything like the current PVE experience, it'll just be Chaos and Brandishes. And shivermist/haze bombs.

But I'm hoping it'll be a little more sophisticated than just race-to-kill-fastest and possibly more of a tower defense / survival mode (ie. weren't they hinting that darkness was coming to haven or some such?)

But what I'm really wondering is if the prize payout/token exchange would be worth it. If it's just for points/leaderboard, I may not bother. (But if they're getting rid of Basil from arcade and making Basil recipes purchased from tokens via Challenge mode...)

(It would be nice if LD roles/shield perks were in effect for challenge mode too, in essence allowing you to strategize with jet boost/co-op shielding/recon-ing in a PVE setting.)

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 08:57

#17

Little-Juances

LD classes? Maskeraith, seraphynx.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 08:58

#18

Paweu

It could be like in PSO.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 09:40

#19

Wolfe-Knight

Hmm

When I heard of challenge mode I thought it come to chaos/brandish sets. If it comes down to that then I will just pass off challenge mode (I use DVS and biohazard as I prefer fun weapons), as those who are not using chaos/brandish will most surely lose.

After a little bit of thought I figured another way to be fair to everyone, having randomized default sets (like Glacies said). Each challenge will have a predetermined weapon type in mind and base the random sets off that (so no getting shadowsun with BAB or other such combos). With the current weapon type in mind you will get 4 weapons and a full set of armour (of the same set) and a shield based on the type of mobs you will face. The armour you get will have bonuses for that weapon group or come from the universal sets (cobalt, magic, skelly, etc). If this system (or something close to it) were to happen then the challenge mode would come down to skill, teamwork, and knowledge of certain weapons. It might not be perfect but it sure would be better than having to face full optimized gear.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 10:56

#20

Golfdinger

It doesn't matter so much

It doesn't matter so much what gear you use, it's how you use it. Even if everyone was forced to used the same stuff, there's still a large variety of playstyles and still larger variety of player skill levels. To call them "clones" is just ridiculous.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 04:00

#21

Viconaut

i second what Traevelliath said

people that run around trying to brute through combat tend to be life sinks,( the guys no one would heart res, back when res system was cool) the people with no SoL on hand, unlike those that walk around with hundreds. these are the people that wear full chaos/glass cannon sets and end up doing less dps than the average/lowest knight in the group. in any decently challenging situation full glass cannon is no walk in the park to make viable. (i am full glass cannon i would know) if you get hit ONCE, with shock or fire, your impressive DPS falls to zero while you run around shielding and dodging for your life until effects wear off. (unless you have a pill obviously) for unskilled glass cannons their dps can easily slips behind the more well rounded knight's lower but steady dps. they pay a much higher price for their mistakes, and if too many are made their DPS drops to lowest in the group while they run around recovering from them.

im sure there will be a lot more to challenge modes rank system than just killing things fast. overall completion time will factor in, sure. but i wouldn't doubt, damage recieved, damaged absorbed/shielded, shield breaks, total hits landed and recieved/misses, revives used, some sort of combo/co op point, possibly for multiple people attacking the same enemy or chaining their combos(something ive seen in a few other games) items used, whether or not people are using a monster types specific weakness, battle sprite use, total knights remaining at the end. just to name a few ideas.. there could just be so much. but even IF all that mattered was pure dmg and how fast you could deal it, groups would OR at least should still be hesitant to bring in a glass cannon (or multiples) they hadn't played with already. its just so easy for us to do more harm than help. this would be even more true if in these scenarios knights had limited revives. say maybe only the 1 auto revive? or even just one life throughout making knights standing at the end a factor. i think that would be more interesting (at least if it was a choice) and if nothing else help if not completely fix the problem if it exists. you wouldn't have many GSs if having more knights standing at the end made you a winner while also having limited lives

you see glass cannons either shine or fall completely flat on their faces often in arena/ danger rooms and not so much if at all in a casual floor of the clockworks. of course DPS seems highest when youre one shotting 3 or so mobs at a time with a triglav. but if that same knight isn't at least "good" in a tense/crowded situation like the last stage of arena, then his role choice is hurting the group more than anything. i almost want to say that in order to make full glass cannon worth using (and worth it for a group to have you) requires you to be an above average player. you have to get in as many if not more attacks than the next guy while making half the amount of mistakes or less, otherwise your lack of defense easily forces a higher downtime than your dps can make up/account for

i am not saying "I AM THE GREATEST GLASS CANNON IN THE WORLD" and that i am unmatched in my glass cannon ability. but i am very confident that i make my role a positive addition to a group and not a negative. we all have our days where we are dubbed good, great and amazing! to friends and strangers alike. we also all have our bad days and of course ive limped through an arena here and there. but for the most part its where i excel. each GC has their own style, combos and techniques as the rest of the builds/players in the game do, but as a long time user of the GC and having went through those bad days and the learning process in the beginning i know first hand just how easy it is to really damage the over all group performance. its a fine line between making a group either 4/4 complete or 3/4 +1 upon your arrival

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 05:22

#22

Sirius-Voltbreaker

+1 to momo

Juances you do know that most people use maskeraith too talk and the seraphinx shield lasts 2 seconds?

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 15:30

#23

Voza-Il

Lets face it, OOO is gooing

Lets face it, OOO is gooing to make challenge mode something silly and brainless to conform to the vast majority of players. Meanwhile, people who are not clones like Zeddy, Blueflood, Seiran, and all the bombers and some gunners and swordies out there will leave the equipment gathering dust while everyone scurries into challenge mode with chaos and beats everything.

Survival mode could possibly he the way tto ultimate victory though if they make it right, which is about a solid .69% chance of happening (for you geeks out there, that percentage was not based on any numerical data, only on past experiences).

And the cycle of updates continues....

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 12:07

#24

Quaquonfaes

Trust me when I say it will,

Trust me when I say it will, it will. Like lockdown To achieve perfect score, you will need 3 people with RAW power, no defense and maskewraith spamming hex, and 1 Person with full armor and adequate power using the kitty to keep them alive using heart attack.

TRUST ME, this will be the MOST effective strategy.

The number 1 party WILL be using this strategy.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 11:04

#25

Pepperonius

@Zeddy

when this comes out, we have to do this with catalyzers and shard bombs only. HAVE TO. maybe a vortex. Either way, ALL THE KABOOM!!!!

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 11:43

#26

Hero-Of-Cheese

I second that motion! Got my Biohazard with me, ready to blow stuff up.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 12:35

#27

Traevelliath

Re-reading the "What's In Development" thread...

For all we know, Challenge Mode may not even be combat focused. It could be anything from the Winterfest ferrying, to a relay race while using a Striker Module.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 13:05

#28

Spookington

Strip the flesh, salt the wound!

My DVS hungers for the blood of the many, and could care less about trite things like scores or common sense! See the numbers, taste the violence!

But sadly enough, if Challenge mode is implemented nearly as poorly as lockdown was - i.e. just throwing PvP with players providing their own weapons and gear without balancing all the weapons/gear for competitive play, it will end up just the same way - one or two highly successful loadouts that trump everything else while all the poor plebs who tried to not be clones get table scraps.

You know what this means: chaos/brandish spam until the bare bones of the clockworks are stripped clean.

... "boss monster" = Re-tooled Tortodrone? The wording and all makes me suspect that this may be the case.

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Will gear ever get balanced or is "Challenge Mode" going to be exclusive to clone gear?