Spiral Knights - More than half of the game is recycled content.

More than half of the game is recycled content.

57 replies [Last post]

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 07:41

Fehzor

For levels, we have the tiers. There is one new level introduced in T2 (compounds), and the monster AI is a bit different, but its still a rehash. In T3, there are zero new levels introduced, not counting FSC/bosses. The danger rooms are all the same for all three tiers as well... the danger missions are "new", until you realize that half of their level is a different level thats been recycled. The bosses are new and unique, but they each have a shadow lair that is again, recycled content. The

Every single weapon, barring winmillion/dark retribution/rocket hammer has a parallel line or five that function in exactly the same manner as the original design. Upgrades to weapons don't usually add anything new either, though this is hardly rehashed content and isn't something I'd harp on. Armor models are all the same way, with much of the armor in the game having entirely similar stats- dread skelly helmet, snarbolax cap, and kat claw cowl? Almost all armor models are copies of other armor models, but reskinned/reconfigured slightly.

Many of the accessories are all parts of various levels and models that have been recycled; e.g. the flower accessory came from firestorm citadel's D25 level. The dragon wings, Valkyrie wings and obsidian disciple wings all use the same general mechanism. These are from 3 entirely seperate promotions.

The battle sprites are relatively unique, with the exception of drakon, who is a stronger fire vial, a better fire barrier pickup, and ash of agni.

The guild halls consist of one or two new models, with many compilations of existing items thrown into the mix. Some of the items are existing models that are now being sold to you for 50 dollars; like the zombie bellhop.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 08:00

Bitsbee

What's wrong with being Green?

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 08:12

Blazzberry

I have no mouth and I need to scream

Yet more than a thousand people still play. Incredible.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 08:29

Hellscreams-Forum

@Bitsbee

There's no problem in being green, but there is however a problem in being greedy yet lazy...

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 08:37

Draycos

And we have even more reskins on the way... which would be okay if they were all reasonable or were coupled with other items that really are different.

Doesn't look like that's the case, though. But here's hoping that there's more than meets the eye.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 08:45

Hellscreams-Forum

Let me point this out to everyone.....

OOO is cheap...

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 08:46

Fehzor

The problem with being green is that it should only go so far.

Is it good to re-use content efficiently so as to make interesting levels? Yes.

Is it a good idea to re-sell and re-promote the same very limited set of content forever? No.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 08:51

Hellscreams-Forum

You're right...I'm speechless....

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 08:57

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Your Voltedge isnt safe.

And what is the point of this thread?

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 09:00

Krakob

Relevant.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 09:06

#10

Fehzor

The point of the thread is to discuss our feelings on what was stated in the OP. How should content be rehashed if at all? Is it too much/are we being milked?

That being said, we'll probably play the game where half the posters attempt to derail the thread by posting the word "green", and the other half of the posters judge on whether the thread has been derailed and post accordingly. My goal in this game is probably to stop the derailing.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 09:07

#11

Hellscreams-Forum

@ Krakob

The point of this song is ?

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 10:08

#12

Skayeth

I swear, if I die, I will die in Glory and Remembrance!

First of all, this music fits the forums the most: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2hRTLdvdnk

Second, it is true that OOO is recycling content, but why is it bad? Think of recycling as some kind of re-improvement. It's only true. Wait, never mind. We really need new levels. And easter eggs. I love secrets in the game, like shooting a statue and coins or beasts come out. We need to fix the sleep glitch, add more danger missions, make more secrets, like secret levels, and make new monsters. I think the upcoming tier 3 boss (in a thousand years or so) will be a statement of originality.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 10:22

#13

Hellscreams-Forum

♡♥♡

+1 Annilaton

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 10:25

#14

Skayeth

In Hellscream's profile, I can see wolver, chroma, slime, tokens

Thank you. We really need secret levels.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 10:29

#15

Whimsicality

Some new content would be nice. But I don't particularly mind the rehashed content so long as it's still enjoyable content (Read: Shadow Lairs are pretty fun, plus I kind of like the Compound levels).

OOO has shown they are able to make impressive levels, both aesthetically and level design wise. Blades of the Fallen, Silent Legion (last floor), The Battle Sprite levels, Briar Bone Barrage, Stygian Steeds, Unknown Passage, Lizard Lounge, Aurora Isles levels, all come to mind for memorable and fun levels.

What baffles me is that a game made by the same people who made Puzzle Pirates, don't even include that many puzzles in their Zelda-like MMO. I mean, there's this one puzzle in random Clockworks levels involving Tier 1 Rocket puppies and timed gate switches to access optional goodies, but that's the extent of it. More puzzle elements and miniboss enemies would be lovely.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 10:50

#16

Krakob

@Hellscreams

It's not easy being green. OOO has to be green because otherwise there'd be a lot less content (imagine the game without recycled content). In fact, it'd be so little content that it wouldn't be a complete game to many. Yet they get crap for recycling.

It's
not
easy
being
green.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 10:58

#17

Hellscreams-Forum

@ Krakob

I know...But sometimes...there is something called being too green ya'know...for Ex : Reskin of weapons...

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 12:05

#18

Canine-Vladmir

Am I the only one who thinks the Compounds suck?
Its okay when your lag free but with a performance drop, the entire level acts like a ****.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 12:12

#19

Traevelliath

Problem with MMOs in general is that it takes FAR less time to play content than it does to create the content. It's easier to make content replayable than it is to make more content.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 12:46

#20

Fehzor

Compounds are one of my favorite levels; they really challenge your arsenal by making you figure out a set of weapons to deal with like multiple families. They could definitely use a buff in the number of boxes on them though.

@Traevelliath

Which is why I'm not entirely opposed to having a bunch of rehashed content. But it'd still be nice to see more major updates like what OCH was- entirely new enemies and weapons with actual new mechanics... and like I said, they definitely overdo the recycled content.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 13:44

#21

Arcknightdelta

Please!!

000s don't make half of the supposedly new guns reskins of older guns. Please make them all unique with different sound effects. And please don't make the gunner gear a white or black hat with a gold or silver star in the front centre. And please don't just give us a different colour of the current gunner armour.

Make it look as awesome as this.

http://www.daevasreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/4-0_concept_art_g...

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 14:40

#22

Krakob

@Hellscreams

Sure. Let's not have reskins.
You know how many 5* swords we have? 23.
Without reskins? 7.

5* guns? 18.
Without reskins? 7.

5* bombs? 19.
Without reskins? 5.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 18:50

#23

Qwez

Fehzor's avatar is no longer a silkwing. RIP in playdoh.

Eh... If OOO really wanted to, they have the unique attack patterns, charge attacks, and whatever, but it seems to me that Spiral Knights is supposed to be simple and uniform to cater to casual players. For example, they fiddled with the Spur weapons, "making them in line with the rest of the swords". As much as I'd enjoy uniqueness, it doesn't seem to be a core value of the game.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 19:32

#24

Klipik-Forum

I don't have a problem with the uniformity of weapons except for the fact that if you consider only unique weapon mechanics, there are few choices, and even fewer viable ones. I would have no problem with there being 5 brandishes, 5 alchemers, 5 haze bombs, 6 shard bombs, 3 vortex bombs, 3 blast bombs, 2 magnuses, 3 autoguns, 2 pulsars, 2 catalyzers, 3 antiguas, 5 caliburs, 4 troikas, 4 flourishes, 2 SS's, and 2 cutters if there were 15 other viable mechanics as well. The armor is ok in some cases, but in others (such as wolver and jelly) the ONLY change is the color of the models, not even extra little bits or anything until you get to 5*.

I can forgive them for accessories though, since they are a small company after all. The exorbitant prices are, well, exorbitant, but who can blame them if there are buyers? It's only vanity stuff anyway.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 19:38

#25

Notgreatpig

Well...

First of all, Drakon came BEFORE the barriers
Second, well, yeah

Truthfully, I can't really complain because the game is free. And I'd be happy to argue to someone who thinks it isn't.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 21:24

#26

Hexzyle

Goddess Ilias ain't gonna bless you, boy

RIP in playdoh.

AGH! RAS SYNDROME!

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 22:42

#27

Hellscreams-Forum

@ krakob

At least give the weapon something to add so that the weapon's shape is a little bit different from the others that has been reskined...And the only two weapons that OOO did this was the Leviathan Blade and the Cold Iron Vanquisher...

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 05:50

#28

Arcknightdelta

Lion heart blade was

Lion heart blade was awesome!! I really mean it.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 06:46

#29

Misty-Wellington

I'm not too bothered that a lot of armours and in-game models are re-used. What I'm more bothered about is that some armour lines like Wolver, Jelly, Seraphic, Elemental and Bomber is that they're literally just recolours and weapons just get slightly stronger charges. Hardly a variation at all.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 07:07

#30

Arcknightdelta

random detail coming up.

If only swords can be seen behind shield and guns can be seen holstered. So basically if you have a sword in slot 1 it will be on your back for all to see. If you have a gun in slot 1 it will be at your side. If you have a bomb in slot 1 it will be visible......on the ground to EXPLODE!!!!

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 09:20

#31

Hellscreams-Forum

@ Misty-Wellington

You forgot the gunner sets...

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 12:08

#32

Fehzor

@Not Great Pig
Yeah? So the barriers are a copy of drakon's skill. Point stays the same.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 12:42

#33

Krakob

And Vanaduke came before Drakon.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 12:47

#34

Arkate

Everybody is blaming OOO.

How many times must I repeat this. OOO DOES NOT CONTROL ITS GAMES ANYMORE!!! Every corporation/enterprise has SHAREHOLDERS!!! And OOO was bought by SEGA, which makes SEGA the BIGGEST SHAREHOLDER!!! It is the shareholders who press for new content, and are listened to more because without them, no game would exist. And OOO being a little smidgeon of a corporation with a tiny dev team, they have no choice but to get down on one knee and pledge their allegiance to the shareholders.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 12:47

#35

Arkate

RAGH DOUBLE POST!

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 12:51

#36

Fehzor

You'll have to keep saying it until I have direct proof or confirmation, because I don't believe you.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 12:53

#37

Arkate

OOO was bought by SEGA.

Go through the Steam news archives for SK. And if you don't believe that shareholders control anything, then I would assume you have never heard of the United States of America.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 13:01

#38

Fehzor

These are just the patch notes. What exactly do you want me to be looking for?

And why does this matter at all?

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 13:17

#39

Arcknightdelta

@ Arkate

You're telling me 000s has no control over Spiral knights? And the evil organisation SEGA are in control?

Proof or it never happened. And don't give me no steam link boy.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 14:02

#40

Whimsicality

Operation Crimson Hammer was interesting in that it tried to introduce elements from PVP into a PVE environment. The Ghostmane Stalkers with their Recon thing, and Seerus himself with his Blast-Network-esque Hammer explosions. The levels were new, but recycled content in a way that felt fresh and exciting.

For the first run or so.

Reusing ideas isn't always bad, so long as the execution is still fun. I quite like the introduction of the new consumables, especially the Recon Flare and Artillery Strike. For one, that Smart-Bomb thing that's been unused for so long finally makes an appearance, and I like the idea of Knights with a specific class fighting by your side with the Flares.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 13:42

#41

Arcknightdelta

@ Whimsicality

Recon flare? Artillery striker! What is this awesomeness you speak of friend?

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 14:30

#42

Arkate

@Arc

The devs have control of the design and mechanics. But everything related to money the Shareholders control. And if SEGA was not a top Shareholder, why was there a Sonic promo?

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 14:30

#43

Whimsicality

The Recon Flare is a fun item to use in that it allows you to mimic the properties of a PVP element, dropping an enemy's defense to 0 and giving you a window of opportunity to go ape. Nothing is stopping you from doing this in the first place, mind you, but I find it more satisfying to go overkill.

The Artillery Strike is in essence, as useful as a Mecha Knight kit. In that, it doesn't really do much. But I do enjoy that they reintroduced previously unused content, and the concept that we can call for a hail of bombs at will.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 15:12

#44

Arcknightdelta

@ Whimsicality

Give me a link so I can read or watch this awesomeness.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 15:15

#45

Arcknightdelta

@ Arkate

There was only one sonic promo. You can't use that as your only evidence. If SEGA had their way we would have the whole frikin sonic cast added to the costume list. On top of that we would have sonic the hedgehog soundtracks playing while we used striker class boost in LD.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 15:57

#46

Fehzor

It could be that the developers are heavily restricted by SEGA, but we have no evidence or no confirmation. So I'd like to refrain from relying on that to explain happenings in the game.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 17:17

#47

Shotjeer

Let's not forget the Obsidion weapons, correct? Poisonous Shadow weapons.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 17:53

#48

Traevelliath

I just wanted to add to the whole Sega and OOO talk...

Sega did (seem to) help with a few performance tweaks. I wouldn't take it as definite proof, but it does seem like they have a hand in the programming.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 19:43

#49

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

You know how many 5* swords we have? 23.
Without reskins? 7.

5* guns? 18.
Without reskins? 7.

5* bombs? 19.
Without reskins? 5.

Thanks Krakob, this helps.

@Thread

Hmmhmm....it's true. Reskins are everywhere. I don't like it, but I don't mind it too badly. (Unless you count weapons. Those need more quirks.)

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 20:15

#50

Traevelliath

I decided to look at Dark Souls just for the sake of interest and comparison...

- Dark Souls has well over 125 different weapons, separated into 22 unique weapon types. Each weapon type has its own unique quirks, but some play out similar to others (For example, Great Hammers / Great Axes / Ultra Greatswords , Catalysts / Talismans / Flames, Piercing Swords / Spears).
- Spiral Knights has about 60 different 5* weapons, separated into 19 unique weapon "types" (i.e. without reskins).

I will admit SK has some balance issues that renders certain weapons obsolete. However, Dark Souls does have similar issues. For example, the broken swords are clearly inferior to the Shortsword, which is clearly inferior to the Longsword, which is clearly inferior to the Sunlight Straight Sword. Fist weapons are outright garbage (except for the one that lets you do a Shoruken), as well as Whip weapons. And there is an objectively best Catalyst/Talisman based on your current level of Int/Faith (respectively).

What I'm trying to say is this: Reskins are alright, as long as you can still have some fun swinging the weapon around. Yes, Fist weapons and Troikas are completely out-classed by most alternatives, however you can still have a great amount of fun punching/crushing things with them.

I don't mind enemy reskins either, because A) There's still a large variety of enemy types, even when disregarding each reskin per status and B) The same enemy type can feel a lot different when going from one tier to another.

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More than half of the game is recycled content.