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I would like to discuss my Tank playstyle with the community, and a rant + questions about the Shivermist Buster

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Jue, 04/30/2015 - 09:18
Imagen de Hexzyle
Hexzyle

Introduction

I'm a tank.
What does that mean? It means I use haze bombs to generate aggro, and I keep it by restricting use of dash unless not doing so would end up killing me.
I frequently use Stagger Storm and Venom Veiler: the former to subdue enemies so they're far more predictable, and the latter to increase general party survivability, as even the Swiftstrike Buckler can take multiple hits from poisoned Tier 3 enemies.

I've found though that there are two things that often generate enough threat to cause monsters to switch targets, and that's the Blitz Needle (especially when people just spam it harmlessly at the front shield of a Trojan instead of taking the time to walk around it since it's not even paying attention to them) as well as other Haze Bombs.

The Shivermist Buster
I really clash heads with players who use the Shivermist Buster for many reasons.

Now this is probably just me, but to my understanding, a combination of Stun and Freeze is a diminishing return. Stun already reduces mob movement to a crawl, while Shivermist stops them entirely. Although that also effects turn rate, Stun slows mob attack rate to a point where it's barely threatening, although I admit Freeze still is quite useful for turrets.

Secondly though, is a problem more people might relate to. In Firestorm Citadel, when someone is using Shivermist a lot... it tends to build giant walls of frozen Slags. Now in a level where there are timed spike and fire traps everywhere, and monsters that can create fairly large fire-inflicting, long duration AoE attacks, this can be pretty deadly if you get stuck on the wrong side of one. As someone who likes to get really close and personal with monsters so I can focus heavily on their direction of attack and be able to sidestep attacks with very little movement, this is a massive threat to me.
You can't shield bump enemies out of freeze, and you often can't break the freeze before the haze has dispersed.

Thirdly, it doesn't do anything to Trojans if you're standing on the wrong side of them. While I understand that more experienced players are probably experts in holding Trojans, less coordinated players are less likely to be able to do so, and also in bad circumstances Trojans do occasionally escape such as if your get mobbed by nearby enemies or you need to move for some reason.

Fourthly, it blocks knockback. Most my weapons have close ties with knockback. Volcanic Pepperbox's charge creates a spray that keeps back enemies within a cone of effect, and I've discovered it even works well at keeping devilites just out of projectile range. Sudaruska throws enemies to the other side of the room, effectively removing them from the battle for a good few seconds while you deal with more pressing matters, or just simply used to do a Gandalf. Iron Slug deals more damage the further it knocks back enemies. (and I've noticed Slug sometimes even pulls mobs out of a Shivermist's radius) However freeze does increase damage from VPB and FoV since you can get a full charge on frozen enemies.

My Strategy

The way I handle Trojans is by dropping a Haze Bomb, doesn't matter which but my preference is the Stagger Storm, within range of a Trojan to build threat on it. Doesn't matter if the bomb is facing the shield, the attempts of status infliction, even while being blocked by the shield, still generate threat.
5+ seconds in the haze and the Trojan can take combo after combo to its back and it won't turn around, instead keeping its focus on me. I like this because my teammates can't, through action, do something that would get me killed
I don't really care what order my teammates take care of enemies. Of course if they get rid of the Trojan first, I can return to attacking since there isn't a lumbering giant staring me down every time I want to use a Suda/Slug/Pepperbox charge, but if they clean up the smaller mobs first, they'll have an easier time moving around and actually getting to the Trojan.
When I'm holding a Trojan is the only time I exclusively use a non-damaging status bomb like the Stagger Storm, at all other times I alternate charging it and a more offensive weapon.

Conclusion

Now that's my strategy with Haze Bombs. How do I handle mobs when a person is using Shivermist Buster, exclusively? It seems almost lazy, since it can still cause some quite dangerous circumstances.
I find it really frustrating too when someone is using the Shivermist Buster, draws all aggro, and then gets killed by the enemies they drew the aggro of. I haven't yet heard anyone complain in this situation, but if they do, they can bet they'll get a piece of my mind.

Is this just me not knowing how2playgame? Does anyone else have difficulty telling where the monster telegraphs are underneath the Shivermist's haze? Or am I just the only person who gets hit by frozen enemies?

Jue, 04/30/2015 - 09:58
#1
Imagen de Fangel
Fangel
Hmm.

Well I don't usually take my shivermist unless I have multiple slots open, but in the past what I've done is try to make sure the area where we are staying is where the freeze radius is. Third depth of FSC at the end with wave upon wave of 5 slags? I drop my shivermists constantly right up next to the door because that means they won't get frozen over the spikes. Some people will still brandish-charge them off the area but they likely are thinking more "omgenemy, must attack" rather than "if I kill things up here in the constant freeze, I won't have to go down and pick up loot because it'll all spawn on me!"

Your strategy with haze bombs? It's interesting. However it seems that you're going more for drawing aggro than actually inflicting the status, which is what most players I've seen use haze bombs for. This is likely why you see other haze bomb users acting differently.

As for noticing when enemies attack under the mist bomb, that's something you need to be be attentive to in general. Looking for one sign and one sign only that a monster is attacking is likely to get you hit. The windup visual, the animation itself, and the noises all designate certain attacks - for example gremlin thwackers will make a sort of "HWAAH" noise when doing a standard attack, make a chuckle when throwing their hammer, a sort of heavy breathing for healing themselves, and what I think is the equivalent to a gremlin swear (OH $#&! OH $#&!) when doing their spin attack.
With that in mind, frozen enemies have one less thing to look at when attacking, but I mean it's not like they're suddenly going to turn around to 360 no-scope you.

Final bits, if someone is freezing enemies, keep them in the freeze range. If possible, get behind the mobs and attack from there. They can't attack what they can't see! If they turn around then, well, you can just walk around them again. It's a death sentence to attack any mob in this game from the front (or just in general spam clicking in their attack range), freeze doesn't change that stance.

Jue, 04/30/2015 - 10:19
#2
Imagen de Qwez
Qwez

From perusing Hall of Heroes, where would you place Tank among one of the 9 classes of Spiral Knights (Striker, Gunslinger, Bomber, Specialist, Cobalt Knight, Guardian, Elemental Defender, Shadow Defender and Piercing Defender). Or is it just a playstyle involving Haze Bombs.

When I'm trying to stall Trojan, I like to have a Catalyzer for that. No knockback, easy to spam bullets to catch shield, does little damage otherwise, so you don't take aggro from other enemies if your teammates are doing their job. If timed correctly, you can push Trojans around, and there's no obnoxious Pulsar spam. It's clean and does the job well... it's better at stalling Trojans than for clearing crowds...

I haven't actually seen that many Shiver spammer lately, maybe because I don't frequent FSC. Anyways, I have the most trouble when someone is constantly unfreezing an enemy that's shiver'd without staggering them. I just think to myself, what's the point of shivering if you're going to use weak attacks on the enemy, might as well use Stagger Storm. The way I see it is that Shiver is good for helping chargespamming with some weapons, or for temporarily taking some enemies out of battle.
I would prefer if a shiverbomber didn't try to freeze everything; just freeze like half of the enemies to reduce the amount of enemies to deal with at one time. Because as you said, for some weapons it's not good to have frozen enemies. But, as far as I remember, most shiverbombers just freeze everything...

EDIT:
@Fangel
No, it's actually pretty safe to attack a majority of enemies head on with things like Winmillion, FoV, and Heavy Swords (except when these enemies are frozen). I sometimes even try to attack Mecha Knights head on with swords (sometimes works, trying to learn when to go in and when to back off). For Mecha Knights, some fearless new players just wreck them in T3... I strive to become as fearless as they are. But against the majority of enemies, the safety of attacking from the front comes from the range on these swords, which freeze nullifies. Unless I'm being overwhelmed by enemies, I don't like to have Freeze, because it doesn't deal damage and makes it harder for me to attack most of the enemies because I like to attack up front against enemies aggro'd to me (and due to freeze they'll just smack me back if my attacks didn't stagger them, or my attacks have too long of a cooldown to escape before they hit me). Walking around may also prove difficult if a whole crowd of enemies are frozen and you can't easily get around them.

Jue, 04/30/2015 - 11:02
#3
Imagen de Skepticraven
Skepticraven
↓

As a debuffer/aggroer, I use stagger/venom/(AoA for freezing slimes) as well. Freeze is convenient for heavy gunning teams [autogun line] that need some space away from monsters. Unfortunately, most vanilla players only grab a blitz to gun against vana/trojans. Shivermist is more of a utility "stop enemy in its tracks" weapon than anything else... only useful in areas where the team is overwhelmed by monsters (shadow FSC) or where players are still not adept at dodging attacks.

Jue, 04/30/2015 - 11:05
#4
Imagen de Fangel
Fangel
Oi

Well I say it's a death sentence because if all you're doing is attacking with your sword a lot in front of them, they won't care and will eventually hit you. Just about every enemy attacks where they're looking, hence you bait them to attack before strafing slightly and attacking.

Too often have I seen players swing at lumbers right in front of them only to get smashed. Too many times have I seen players corner a zombie and then walk up to the enemy and attack its face - hint, it'll just swipe at you until it's out of the corner and can move again.
That sort of thing. It's not like you walk in front of a scuttlebot and die instantly. It's that strafing enemies is the only guaranteed safe way of dealing with them, other than carnavons and tier 3 gremlin thwackers, of course.

This is when you want to utilize the fact that enemies are immobile via freeze. I will agree however that freeze benefits charge attacks much better than any other status.

Jue, 04/30/2015 - 11:29
#5
Imagen de Holy-Nightmare
Holy-Nightmare
.....

I have never used a Shivermist and in all my travels on Cradle I have yet to meet a person who spams them like I spam VTs. Most players are smart enough to know that they are used for dealing with large, high priority targets.

Most of the enemies in FSC have a high flinch resist so getting in melee range is foolish unless you have charge prepared.

Jue, 04/30/2015 - 16:57
#6
Imagen de Speed-Of-Slow
Speed-Of-Slow
:3

If there is already a support bomber in the team, I would quickly switch to offensive bombing with DR and DBB (or Nitronome, if they let me. They usually don't.)

Really, why use Shivermist when there is already someone laying waste with VT,VV, or Swagger Storm? No reason at all, except maybe "this is the part of the show where I just spam Shiver".

In terms of swords, I only use things with high knockback, for I value self preservation much more than massive DPS. Which is why I'll take a Sudaruska over a Brandish-line.

So I understand your feelings in this. If only random FSC groups were more coordinated.

Jue, 04/30/2015 - 19:36
#7
Imagen de Hexzyle
Hexzyle
There's some good points in this thread

@Fangel
I drop my shivermists constantly right up next to the door because that means they won't get frozen over the spikes.

Well I'm glad someone actually thinks where they're placing the Shivermist.

t's a death sentence to attack any mob in this game from the front (or just in general spam clicking in their attack range), freeze doesn't change that stance.
strafing enemies is the only guaranteed safe way of dealing with them, other than carnavons and tier 3 gremlin thwackers, of course.

As Qwez brought up, there are certain weapons that are completely safe to use in this matter, but become dangerous to use when the enemy is frozen. The only thing I need to strafe when using Troika is projectiles and lumbers.

@Qwez
Probably Izola, but not for the reasons you might expect. Forget the Plate Mail. Unless you're planning on actively taking Lumber & Trojan hits and don't want the stun to mess you up, you're better off with other armor.

The Troika can be used to parry most enemy attacks as its knockback is greater than all melee attacks. (barring overhead slams by Lumbers and Trojans) You can even use this to protect teammates by knocking enemies sideways while they're winding up an attack, i.e. Alpha Wolvers, Retrodes, and Zombies readying their leap, or simply standing still and knocking enemies back every time they walk back into range. Good practice for the latter technique is on Scuttlebots and Jelly Cubes (which can be hit after they lunge for an attack but before they do the omni-swing to harmlessly knock them out of range), and it has a very strong practical application on Glop Drops.
And then when you go full out with the charge...

The Magnus has an interesting knockback mechanic. It's bugged: enemies hit by a Magnus charge always go backwards from their facing, not their direction from you. You can use this to your advantage however. Hitting an enemy with the charge will "suck" them backwards, often so that they are no longer in range of the Knight they were trying to attack.

And the Plate Shield can really soak up Trojan overhead slams as those are mostly normal-damage anyway, and there's a rule of thumb that most enemy melee attacks will do partially normal damage, even in Tier 3. Venom Veiling helps in this endeavor even more: you can basically laugh off a poisoned Trojan's hits with any Plate Shield.

@Fangel
This is when you want to utilize the fact that enemies are immobile via freeze. I will agree however that freeze benefits charge attacks much better than any other status.

Although freeze attacks do allow easy landing of charge attacks, they don't allow landing of time-efficient, high DPS charge attacks.
Enemies don't clump and can't be toilet-bowled while frozen, they just stop where they stand. This means that knockback-benefitting charges like the Brandish Line, Magnus, and AoE charges like literally every sword that isn't underrated deals out far less damage as enemies are spread out and immobile.

I've always had the feeling that Shivermist is a "emergency bomb" that you drop to give yourself a breather and to re-evaluate the situation, picking off targets that are a pain in the butt. Not to be used exclusively for the entirety of FSC because FSC isn't that hard that it's needed, and it basically slows down progression because it's one less person dealing damage.

Vie, 05/01/2015 - 18:18
#8
Imagen de Poopsie
Poopsie
...

Unfortunately, the main reason of monsters being unpredictable is that some party members just knock backing around monsters without caring the directions they're thrown. And often times, those who did that doesn't have enough damage bonus to flinch the monsters. Thus, I got hurt so many times when I have avoided the incoming monster attack, and somebody just throw that monster in front of my face again.
On my personal defense, that's exactly the reason why I blitz trojan even when I have no quick opportunity to aim at their back, because I want the trojan more predictable to me, since I wouldn't make trojan spinnning around, which also gives easier time for other party member to aim-killing him.
Though most of time, I play the exact opposite, sniper mode. I dashes most of the time to avoid monster agro, and snipe kill them one by one following order of their danger rate priority.
I find that occasional (not spamming it all the time) shivermist is just fine. Within the right distance, brandish charge to the frozen monster still connects up to 3 out of 5 brandish explosions. I wouldn't say its damage heavily reduced due to shiver. Magnus line is also not that far-fetched, at maximum range (bullet exploded) always provide additional hit, so stationary monster could eat up to 3 hits per magnus charge. But with other existing supporting bomb (also raging on people who cover vortex with shiver), I agreed with everyone here, shiver should be toned down as its usability less than others.

Vie, 05/01/2015 - 21:57
#9
Imagen de Hexzyle
Hexzyle

But with other existing supporting bomb (also raging on people who cover vortex with shiver), I agreed with everyone here, shiver should be toned down as its usability less than others.

When I say toilet-bowling, I don't just mean vortex, but also when you have aggro of a large number of mobs (especially if you're support bombing), you can cluster them into a tight wad by simply circling them.

Sáb, 05/02/2015 - 11:02
#10
Imagen de Fangel
Fangel
Well definitely

I agree that shivermist shouldn't be used for every encounter, that's just sorta crazy. However, when a large horde of monsters appear it's not a bad idea to drop a few shivers down to make dealing with a high-priority target easier. A good place to use a shiver is in the ghosts in the machine danger mission. The second depth especially in the key room fights, holding the enemies in a strategic position (i.e., below the halfway point for the left side and in the bottom/left corners of the right side) is stupidly useful, however your team has to hold back on shooting all the enemies above. Rather frustrating for loot to appear somewhere where you'll spawn like, 8 bombies instead of down next to you.

Unfortunately with a bad team, players will knock enemies outside of the freeze radius rendering the bomb more or less useless. Honestly that happens a lot with any bomb though, players get too swing-happy and pay no attention to the expanding circle of support under the monster.
But yeah, a good shiver user isn't necessarily trying to max their DPS, but rather their team's survivability. A bad user just wants to freeze all the things.

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