What else is there to talk about?

17 Réponses [Dernière contribution]
Portrait de Paintool
Paintool

Spiral Knights is a 5 year old Free 2 Pay MMO come April, the original team is gone, and where still having the same discussions as far as how the game ought to be run and balanced since the beginning of time.

I could get into this whole discussion again about what I would do if I was in charge of the operation, but after nearing 5500 hours and 300,000 prestige, I almost don't care as much or feel like I've played this game more and longer than the actual devs* (there are no devs) have played or worked on the game.

I err on the side of making players happy and more willing to part with their money than forced frustration and paywalls to make an extra buck.
We will literally have a year entirely dedicated to recolored rocks in SK history. Think about it. But OOO* (Sega Networks) doesn't have to change anything.
I mean has anyone ever heard of an MMO that's praised for changing to make things more convenient for a player? I need examples to rub in people's faces.

Seeing as their are no alternatives to SK (equal or better), there is no where to go.

Remember it was only a few years ago we were saying the core opening up would make people quit the game, and yet here we are wondering where is everything.

Arcade Redux is dead along with Nick after he left in 2013. Just saying.

Portrait de Cyphereau
Cyphereau
.

Let's talk about the aging of Spiral Knights.

Pretend the player count is an analogy to the blood volume in our bodies. Also, I'll use Steam's player count to use as SK's entire pop., considering that as an accurate portrayal.

Our current player count average is less than half of when SK was launched (steamcharts.com > spiral knights). This, by using our analogy above, means we've lost more than half of our blood volume. We're prone to fatigue, heart failure, et cetera. Look at SK! The updates look like they're drawn out - tired. SK is exhausted and tired, because of the player loss. This is causing a "loop": less players, less update development. Almost all games with numerous players (LoL, WoW) have tons of updates. If SK got many updates (at least 1 a week), then the player count would increase. Unless there is some sort of developer defect over at OOO that is hindering update development, as would leukemia or some sort of disease inhibit blood development in human bodies, I don't see why SK shouldn't be getting frequent updates.

You've H-E-A-R-D our cries! Throw a surprise update or some crazy stuff that we will love! Do it OOO! Try crunching for once, but de-stress if you need to ;)

I understand your position on this, but you have the HELM of Spiral Knights. You have the wooden arrow pointing us where to GO. If there aren't enough arrows, where will we go next? That's what SK is - gameplay-oriented. Make more danger missions! Make so many that you get to play Compound 42 once or twice a month! Do something that attracts us. Give giveaways frequently. Give Forge bonus events. Give heat events. Give crown boosts. Give us frequent "mini events"! Give us free low-star weapons! Give us the want to log on everyday!

I want to play SK. I really do. But if the pie goes cold, who would wanna eat it? If the fish goes sour, who's gonna wanna eat it? Not me. Nobody will.

These so-called accessories and costumes... Why do we need them again? Couldn't we get recolors or reskins of other weapons instead? A ruby Blitz Needle? A sapphire Gran Faust? We have so many accessories that focus needs to target on something else.

Everyone raved about the new Missions. But we want one we could farm. Farm LOTS. RELEASE the new Tier 3 boss!

To end this parchment, I am signing off. Sincerely, mysterious Spiral Knight Cyphereau

Portrait de Bonjourhippo
Bonjourhippo
It's fairly obvious that

It's fairly obvious that there is nothing more to expect from Spiral Knights; like you said, it's aging, it lost it's creativity with Nick. Good news is Nick's new studio is having some major success with their new game (Steam greenlit, over 100k sales in early access already) and so with any luck, in a few years we could see a spiritual successor to this game; unless some Spiral Knights 2 is in the making on OOO's side, this is pretty much the end of it, at least in terms of new gameplay content.

Portrait de Avenger-Of-Troy
Avenger-Of-Troy
the new t3 boss was already released...

CAUTION SPOLIERS

The new tier 3 boss was herex...

Portrait de Cyphereau
Cyphereau
.

^ Nope - real T3 boss will get rewards with it, too. Herex could've been a mini-boss like Arkus, meaning the true T3 boss is almost here (in theory).

Portrait de Avenger-Of-Troy
Avenger-Of-Troy
I doubt it

I mean... really. There's nothing in development (probably)

Prominis-Alt

Clearly the most important thing to talk about is the most recent fashions. Have you seen that Valentine's day lockbox?

Portrait de Fehzor
Fehzor

I'd talk about what we can do to help the game along. Buying prize boxes shows we're still here, but isn't going to be enough to sustain the game's development forever.

Portrait de Bonjourhippo
Bonjourhippo
Pity over OOO and its

Pity over OOO and its situation with SEGA has fueled the game for a while now, but no important update has been seen in a while; I'd even argue the Gunner update was of no significance at all, most of the new armors are completely underused, the weapons were barely just variations of existing ones.

The game developers are likely bothered to work on this old, outdated hunk of code that lost its main contributor anyway. The game itself requires knowledge of a homemade engine, that does not provide relevant experience for the mainstream game engines, honestly, why would anyone bother picking the game up as it is? The only salvageable bits of SK are the lore and the concept (and the always happy to pay community), the rest is worthless by today's standards.

Portrait de Fangel
Fangel
disagree here

I'd even argue the Gunner update was of no significance at all

I'd argue the other way actually. After having the new guns for some time I can say that the update did a lot more, it's just not necessarily having to do with the items on the surface.
It used to be blitz needle was your charge weapon, alchemers were your "high skill level" weapons, and antiguas were your lower skill level weapons (and polaris was your "annoy your teammates" weapon). However, the gunner update revamped the entire system, making each individual gun usable in its own way. The only one to suffer from these changes was the catalyzer, and honestly, its first pass was the best one (after adding 1 damage into it to break blocks). The gunner armors are better as specialist gear - used to mix and match into your playstyle instead of locking you into one specific playstyle.

Before the gunner update you didn't see many different weapon types. Post gunner update I'm seeing people using all different types of guns - blaster variants, autoguns, pulsars, magnuses... pretty much every weapon but catalyzer I see people using normally. Compare this to swords where you see brandish or sealed sword, and that's about it.

Gunner update did do a lot for the game, but it was the evolution of playstyles over time that really made the update worthwhile. I have a friend who's new to the game, and she uses literally only autoguns. Or at least, did until mecha knights became too much. In the old system, that would be not just impractical, but nearly impossible to play competitively. In the new system they've powered through all of the old missions without much problem on elite. Gunner update has had massive impact on the game, but it's what's not in the patch notes that makes it that impactful.

Portrait de Bonjourhippo
Bonjourhippo
Yeah I can definitely agree

Yeah I can definitely agree it caused a change of meta (especially in LD); I guess the no significance bit boils generally just down to the feeling that the game itself didn't change with the update, only the ways to go about it did (the game being for the most part and for most players, doing the missions, then keeping one busy), then again, very debatable.
I'm more inclined to talk about how working on Spiral Knights as a developer right now is a bad career choice, and generally not interesting. Nick dropped a few words about SK in a recent interview, which seems to say he's done with MMO's altogether, could be an interesting read (incidentally gives a clear feel of how Nick intended Spiral Knights to be played).
Here's a quote from it:
"There's a really great philosophy in the MMO space, 'Let people quit your game.' Let them happily walk away from your game, reach some point of closure and then they'll come back when you release more content," Popovich said.

Oh and the actual link, duh
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-02-15-how-to-prepare-for-unex...

Portrait de Bopp
Bopp
interesting

Thanks for the link, Bonjourhippo. For years I've been telling players "go away, come back, no big deal". It is gratifying to hear that philosophy stated explicitly by SK's designer.

He's trying to manage expectations. We'll see whether it helps. There are always inattentive and immature players. They might still get enraged if updates don't come as rapidly as they want.

Disclaimer: This post is not intended to defend the lack of SK updates. I want updates just as any other players does.

Portrait de Shadow-Turtle
Shadow-Turtle
lol what

I'm more inclined to talk about how working on Spiral Knights as a developer right now is a bad career choice, and generally not interesting.

Bonjourhippo, what makes you think that working on Spiral Knights as a developer is a bad career choice, assuming the developer wanted to go into the gaming industry, and especially, why would it not be interesting?

Portrait de Bonjourhippo
Bonjourhippo
Well as you may (or may not)

Well as you may (or may not) know, SK runs on a set of libraries made by OOO (http://www.threerings.net/code/ for reference) which surely do the job, and that's great but working with legacy libraries (over 10 years old in that case) in an industry that changes constantly is just a bad move, not to say it's a worthless experience but definitely not optimal; in layman's terms it's much like working with a typewriter and trying to convince anyone that qualifies you to use a computer. As far as a learning experience, the only relevant experience one would get out of it is Java programming, which in itself is ok but just not specific to game development. The point is it gives little transferable skills; it would be a much different story of course if the game ran on a more modern engine, say, Unity or Unreal, but that's not the case.
Now you might point out that SK, being an MMO, has a much longer lifespan than your average game and that's true, definitely; but the engine in use has little to no reputation, and knowing this engine only qualifies you to work with games that use it, that is OOO games only for the most part.
So to summarize:
- Mentioning in your CV your experience working with a legacy engine, in 2016, barely qualifies as a relevant experience, it certainly won't shine on your paper.
- Directly as a consequence of what's just above, it's pretty much a waste of time if you're looking for a career, which most developers will anyway.
- Working on a project that sees close to no large scale update is hardly interesting; unless you have a passion for repeating the same code patterns needed to implement the monthly new costume. Again, save for the repetitiveness, you will get little to no insight of how a game works, unless you're specifically interested in the game mechanics concerned with milking the 10$ monthly allowance of the casual P2P players.
I could go on with this for a few pages but I believe that'll give you enough to think about; I'm a developer myself so I like to think I know what I'm saying, but I won't hold it against you if you don't take my word for it, this is the internet after all.

Again if you're not convinced by the reputation bits of those libraries, feel free to check out OOO's Google group dedicated to the said libraries; spoiler alert, it's a bit dead..https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ooo-libs

Last but not least a quick disclaimer to just remind that this only applies to Spiral Knights; OOO as a whole always seems to have great game concepts and so whatever's coming next from them will surely be interesting to work on; just that what is currently released isn't.

Portrait de Skepticraven
Skepticraven

You talk about pudding. Or cupcakes. Those are good as well.

Portrait de Shadow-Turtle
Shadow-Turtle
lol what

Bonjourhippo,
I think the only thing I agree with here is that using the libraries isn't optimal compared to using something like Unity or Unreal. Oh and the facts that the libraries are old and that the google page is quite inactive.

Otherwise, here are some other things to think about too. That collection of libraries is code built with Maven and Ant projects and that use java for functionality, and OpenAl and OpenGl to help the developer deal with graphics. Sure, possibly, since I haven't quite looked into the code too much myself the Open graphics libraries may be abstracted behind java code so you really ultimately deal with java code writing only. That's a possibility.
But still, by learning the libraries and how they work, you can take them and use them to build a game (which is their purpose) and learn more than just java by doing so. You can learn maven, ant, opengl, openal, design principles and practices, how to deal with code you didn't write, how to deal with really old code (which by the way does entirely exist in the industry), how to deal with undocumented, or rather, not google-able code, and i'm sure if i gave it more thought than i have which isn't much some more things besides that.

Those libraries are tools to help you build a game. Yes, they're older and they don't have much of a reputation, but that's not surprising with today's generation that was brought up with constant ease and instant gratification type programming lessons. Unity is used when you want to whip up a quick game by yourself and don't have the time otherwise. These kinds of old code based libraries are used when you want to do something cool and really impress someone, and yes, believe me, if you can make something of high quality with libraries like these, oh you better bet moneys that it'll get looked at harder than if you did the same thing in Unity.

Why? because it took you a drive, passion and dedication level that Unity literally does not take. When you're trying to get a job, it isn't just about can you build a thing - which basically if you're using Unity, any young person can do before they even hit high school - it's about can you build a thing when the odds are against you and you actually have to work for it.

The game development professor I had in college told our class once that if we could build a game from scratch in assembly, we'd practically get handed jobs. Just some food for thought. What we ended up using was Cry-Engine (i think community edition) because my professor agreed that though Unity was cool, it would be more worth to use Cry-Engine as it was a real in-house tool used by developers that worked on Crysis, which at the time was free, and then it ended up being sold on steam for some small-ish sum of money. It was a giant pain to us, and we had to learn how to try and deal with it. But if we had done something better than we did with it, it would have been much more impressive had we done the same in Unity simply because Cry-Engine has a lower ease of access. And that equates to this scenario here with the OOO libraries. They're harder to use and learn and old. But they're valuable because they're tools that you can use to build your own game with. Honestly, if you wanted, I'm sure you could even build your own Unity-like program with those libraries at your disposal. Besides, how do you think Unity was built anyways? with code similar to something you'd see in these OOO libraries. Not java sure, but a programming language is pretty much generic once you learn one or two of them.

TL;DR
I'm not the brightest chip on the old block, but I'm not easily convinced by any of your arguments here really.
The one argument that makes sense is that using OOO libraries to build a game isn't optimal, but that's because they're less accessible, less google-able, and you'd have to take time to use them well.
The rest of the arguments have an alternative view point for their values outside of just programming. Game development and the characteristics that make a good developer are most exercised by using old legacy code.

Just my two sense. I'm a developer too. :)

Portrait de Bonjourhippo
Bonjourhippo
I get where you're coming

I get where you're coming from; my observation are really based on the assumption that SK is not being updated anymore. That's just guessed from the Dev radio silence we've had for a couple years now added to the fact lots of legacy bugs aren't getting fixed or even responded on. If OOO were to make a move tomorrow and decide it's time to update the game big time, I have no doubt it would be both interesting and a valuable experience, I just don't think realistically that's the move they'll make.
Similarly if tomorrow you decided to contribute to their libraries or fork them to bring your own necessary twist on them, you'd benefit from it; that would give you insights on how a multiplayer game works.
The reality of things right now (just as I see it) is new content in Spiral Knights is only ever promotional, and that's a repeated pattern that will not teach you much. OOO is clearly willing to re-use the design assets of SK, as they've shown with Rise of Knights (even though it kind of failed).
It looks like OOO is preparing a game transition, just judging from their job offers; they're now going with Unity! They also quote their expertise in mobile and MMO development, so their next game could be either of both of these. That sounds like a much more exciting project to work on, who knows, maybe SK is getting a much needed fresh start.
( Jobs overview)

Portrait de Cyphereau
Cyphereau

I hear there is an aqueous dungeon and a world map of some sort coming out soon. Hype?

- Mysterious Spiral Knight, Cyphereau