Spiral Knights - OOO No loyalty to loyal following---DEV RESPONSE WOULD BE NICE

OOO No loyalty to loyal following---DEV RESPONSE WOULD BE NICE

55 Réponses [Dernière contribution]

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:40

Pawn

I'm in the boat of players who has put a lot of time and energy into getting what is widely considered "elite" gear. The hunt for great UV's is what really drives the CE market, and therefore your (OOO) profits. It is the primary reason CE is bought, directly or indirectly--still the primary reason. It is most certainly the biggest driver. Much more so than CE for dungeon diving or CE for crafting 1 set of personal 5* gear.

Like many loyal supporters, i have invested a lot of time, energy, and some real world $$$ into making this happen for myself. With the advent of the newest patch, players like myself who have been supporting the game through time, money, effort, viral marketing, etc, are seriously seriously getting the screw job.

Something should be done to protect our investments (=time, money, effort, all things relating therein). In one fail swoop OOO has now said, the stuff you have grinded 100's upon 100's of hours are now comparatively worthless. Just look at the difference in 'value' b/n a high and v.high.

Some solution needs to be reached. I suggest, when you reroll an item--items that prepatch had a high or v.high UV are allowed to keep that UV. Give us with those items a leg up for having shown the loyalty and driving the market. Is it fair? It's more fair than just taking a crap on the players who worked the hardest, that's for sure.

So flame away if you are too dull to see the logic of the argument above. Any intelligent person should be able to empathize with the situation.

Also--Dev's please address this issue. Many people would sincerely like to know where you stand, or what your perspective is on changes like this that completely alienate a very loyal and dedicated player base. Otherwise, this is likely the last straw for me. Some sort of response, even if it is simply -'we don't care about that' is needed.

If you don't care to respond, then goodbye.

P.S. Something to consider--this is the only game i've ever played where the community at large (my exposure to them at least) views patches as a bad thing. When people hear a patch is coming, a sense of dread accompanies it. Oh no, what are they going to do to us now...

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:45

King-Tinkinzar

Goodbye! ;)

Oh and wrong forum...

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:45

Lagretta

Byeeeeeees :3

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:45

Sunless

Oh... Oh wow. It's May 17th

Oh... Oh wow. It's May 17th all over again.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:47

Pupu

Legacy Username

You realize this update didn't make you lose anything or make the game harder right?

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:48

Pawn

@ pupu

it made us lose the value of our existing items.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:52

Madadder

empathize is one thing...

empathize is one thing... objectively view this is another

they decide the give an expansion on something and all you do is complain. now i feel sorry for OOO... damned if they do something damned if they dont. they might as well shut SK down now that everyone's gear is now second rate instead of trying to reach the top once more

value is subjective btw i dont have many UV based equipment but i am grateful that i have some regardless of the type

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:51

Madadder

double post

....

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:52

Pawn

it's really a simple fix

Add in some provision to protect the players who have been supporting their game. How hard would that be? Make Pre-patch max UV's simply stay on the item when re-rolling additional UV's. Win for everyone.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:54

Pupu

Legacy Username

Nah

@jeburk
That depends on the % rates for double and tripple uvs.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:55

#10

Blanky

You can never make anyone

You can never make anyone happy, no matter what update happens everyone complains. Why?

This was a fairly good update. I don't know why everyone grinded for this "elite" gear. You don't really need "elite" gear if you are going to play the market game for half of the time you are on.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:55

#11

Thelemon

Legacy Username

tl;dr

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:57

#12

Madadder

jeburk

but that isn't fair jeburk... OOO shouldnt play favorites just because you supported the game. once you cough up the cash, it's their resources to use as they please. no special breaks or they take the heat from the free players

mer, 07/20/2011 - 15:59

#13

Steinstoki

The update killed CE and

The update killed CE and single u.v. item.

The best thing in game, guaranteed 3 u.v. , is only through crown. A Mist tank is sufficient for people to do 2 boss run, assuming they had guildies and friends.

Even when you mass craft, which end-game player would pay over hundred of thousand for a single good u.v. item instead of trying their luck for 2/3 u.v. ? Yes, it does depend on the rate of 2/3 u.v. on mass craft but from what the patch notes says, it's exceptionally rare.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:02

#14

Captain-Teemo

1) 4k ce just to unbind

1) 4k ce just to unbind gear... 4k ce is over 10 bucks and that is JUST the unbinding!!! That isn't any profit to the person buying, who is certainly gonna mark it up. 5* gear is going to be VERY expensive, and prolly not the most commonly vended item.

2) 3x uv costs 375k cr, with the price of ce dropping this is actually RAISING the difficulty of getting these by "buying" your way into them... At the current market price of about 5k per 100 ce, this is gonna cost over 7500 ce to buy. Coincidentally 7500 ce is 20 USD, and again that is ONLY the cost of getting a 3 uv ticket. Crafting and leveling and unbinding the item is just going to cost more...

Add into that the fact that the 3x uv ticket is going to be 3 completely random uv strengths and types means 1, 5, even 10 tickets won't guarantee you any value in the uv added...

In short - previously valuable gear is still going to be valuable because 1 max uv of a meaningful type is better than 3 crap uv's.

5* gear won't flood the market because the cost simply to unbind the gear is gonna bump the price enough to justify many players simply buying 2-3* and upgrading themselves.

imo - the only thing this patch has done is let OOO in on the market, allowing ppl to dump more cr and ce to OOO, where previous most crafting was done on mist, and most high end transactions were done privately avoiding ah fees (especially trades conducted in CE, while OOO gets real money for every ce in existence, this ce trading hands for gear mostly created with minimal ce actually being spent does not continually profit OOO)

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:05

#15

Madadder

im getting a funny sense of

im getting a funny sense of déjà vu here. its almost like these types of reactions from a new patch have all happened before...

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:04

#16

Myou

Legacy Username

Huh?!?

I dont get how this KILLED single UV items? Did single UV items become suddenly obsolite cause EVERY piece of gear would have one...maybe but the cost through the goblins to get the UV ADDED to a non-UV item would still be there so the cost is still up.

All this did was make 2 & 3 UV items even more rare. So people are willing to pay 100k for a max piece of gear...they'll now pay 500k for double max gear and 1+mil for 3 max gear.

So quit your b****ing and go craft your rage away...or quit the game and give me your CE...I'll put it to good use as I try to have fun in an already enjoyable game.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:05

#17

Pawn

@ monkeyman and others who can't relate

How would you feel, if you going into a situation you were told:

We will give you 1x compensation, for every 1 unit of production.
You will be compensated at the end of the month.
We can call 1x compensation $10, and 1 unit of production 1 hour of work.
Based on these expectations you bust your ass all month and work 200 hours.
You are happy and expectant (based on expectations set by them) of your $2000 coming.
Then, they say, we have patched our model. We have decided that 1 unit of production will be 10 hours. Here is your $200.

How would that make you feel?

It is important for expectations to be clearly defined, and for you to live up to your own end of the bargain in such things. It begins to be an ethical argument. It is not good business ethics to just revalue someone's work after the fact, creating a demand for more business to maintain the status quo. It would be like building a car that intentionally breaks down and has to be serviced at your own shop.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:10

#18

Pawn

@Myou

I don't think that is how it will play out. If you look at the difference in value b/n a UV v.high and UV high it is not based on utility, but rather on comparative rarity. We will have to wait and see. But i can say with 99.99% confidence that the Value of single item UV will precipitously plummet.

Again, they set up the model in which so many of us invested ourselves to get the best. By revaluing 'the best' as a middle of the road-ish item, they have pulled the rug out from under us.

Also, i will say this: if there was not a monetary business model working behind the scenes here, then i would be annoyed, but not outspoken and considering this unethical. Or if that business model was a 1 time purchase like star craft, or if it was monthly subscription like wow. But given that it is a micro-transaction model, in my opinion this waltzes right over the line of ethical.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:13

#19

Madadder

actually since you worked

actually since you worked under the old model its only right that you get $200 but be allowed to work under the new model

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:13

#20

Steinstoki

It's like I can't empathize

It's not like I can't empathize with people who grind a lot for their gears, however, making every end-game equipment trivial is part and parcel of any multiplayer online game. Not trying to start a war or be sarcastic here.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:17

#21

Blanky

Jeburk, sometimes bad things

Jeburk, sometimes bad things happen and you just have to shrug them off. Sure $200 isn't as much as $2000, but you are still getting money, at least.

Most cars these days are built crappy so the mechanics/dealers get more money anyways. ^-^ You shouldn't of grinded so much for getting a bonus in a game. It's just a small lucky bonus that you can get, you don't HAVE to have one. Does it matter value of a UV drops? You can still make a profit from it. You have to look at the good side of things too, ya know. You won't get anywhere if you don't.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:19

#22

Dirt

Legacy Username

Just leave already.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:20

#23

yusyus

Legacy Username

that's right but think about

that's right but think about people who used REAL MONEY so they could skip grinding and then be notified that they lost 90% of their value.
things lose value over time that's ok but such a drastic drop is a slap in the face from one big greedy company. (i didnt pay cash but still feel this is wrong)

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:20

#24

Pawn

@ live2win

You have the only reasonable argument i've seen to this type of patch concern. Although i don't know that it scales very well across MMO's. I mean, a new level cap with new equip is a little bit different beast. This is less of new content, and more of just nerfing what we already bought. I mean, the fake, not real, not perfectly corresponding with real economy works differently on this game. Also part of my issue stems from the pay model ramifications. It's almost as if they said, "your old best weapon is now only a decent weapon...but for $40 you can try and make it a new best weapon!!!!"

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:22

#25

Pawn

@dirt

If you don't like what i have to say, then don't participate in the conversations i'm having.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:24

#26

Merethif

Déjà vu?

I have a déjà vu too...

@jeburk
P.S. Something to consider--this is the only game i've ever played where the community at large (my exposure to them at least) views patches as a bad thing. When people hear a patch is coming, a sense of dread accompanies it. Oh no, what are they going to do to us now...

Please ALWAYS talk for yourself - not community. I'm part of community and I'm looking forward to any patch and update and see them as a good thing. And I believe I'm not alone.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:24

#27

Nodocchi

How would you feel if you

How would you feel if you were told as a new player that all the players which joined before a certain date got a huge advantage by being guaranteed one max UV on their 3 UV item? How would that make you feel?

It is important for new and old players to be able to reach the same footing without favoritism to any one group. OOO didn't revalue your work after the fact, your work always had the same value, you just invested it poorly. Don't blame it on OOO that you can't predict how the value of your investment will do in the long term.

Also whats with the favouritism for only high UVs and above? What if a guy who has been playing for a while wants to keep a medium UV? You are sounding pretty elitist in your arguments.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:25

#28

Sunless

that's right but think about

that's right but think about people who used REAL MONEY so they could skip grinding

Those people left at the May patch.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:30

#29

Sillty

This patch.. *puts on

This patch..

*puts on sunglasses*

really grinds your gears, huh?

Yeeaaaaaahhhhhhhhh

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:33

#30

kneo24

Legacy Username

So let me get this

So let me get this straight...

You spent time and money on the game to get the best items you could.

Now people can spend time and money in a different way to get the best items.

If people want the best gear, they will pay the price in crowns. They can obtain those crowns through buying energy with real money and selling it on the market, or they could grind themselves into a frenzy. Or they could do some of both.

Isn't that essentially what you did for your best gear? So how does this cheapen what you have?

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:34

#31

Shrinkshootr

I understand where you're

I understand where you're coming from, jeburk. But understand the changes, as well. You say you grinded hundreds and hundreds of hours for elite gear; this patch tries to make it so that isn't so necessary to that extreme. This game does advertise itself as grind-free, although we all know that's not true. You and other vets toughed it out through a system that was harsh on resources for those trying to get awesome gear. 3R seems to have tried taking a step to fix that. I understand you don't want all your previous effort to seem devalued and wasted, but I agree with 3R's attempt at making this more accessible to the playerbase. This allows everyone with a fair shot at UVs, instead of requiring hundreds of hours of resource gathering and/or purchasing CE to get the gear that you want.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:34

#32

Sunless

So how does this cheapen what

So how does this cheapen what you have?

Because he feels the item is now worth less given it's not the presumed best any longer.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:40

#33

Volebamus

I haven't checked the terms

I haven't checked the terms and conditions about the game, but I'm pretty sure it says something there that everything you possess on your character's inventory is still never technically yours, and that everything is in OOO's control.

So yeah, lol@investment

mer, 07/20/2011 - 16:50

#34

Cobaltstarfire

You knew this patch was

You knew this patch was coming for a long time, it's kind of silly to be a big drama queen about it.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 17:13

#35

Tenkii

NOAP

ah screw it, the post below has the best analogy of this.

OP is silly and mad.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 17:05

#36

Trouser

@jeburk

This is nothing at all like a company agreeing to pay you a certain amount for your work, then paying you less than agreed. It's a lot more like if you bought a computer, then the next year the company came out with a newer, better computer, and started selling the old model for less. How would you feel if that happened? How would you feel if it happened every single year? Would you go on the computer manufacturer's forum and complain bitterly about them making your computer obsolete and worthless? How inconsiderate of them, how disloyal to their paying customers!

Or would you consider that to be absurd, because you expect them to keep making enhancements to their products?

mer, 07/20/2011 - 17:14

#37

Madadder

so jeburk.... can i have your

so jeburk....

can i have your stuff when you're gone? anything bound can be sold at the vender i dont care for the unbinding

mer, 07/20/2011 - 18:42

#38

Eruzei

More people need to read the

More people need to read the TOS for (pretty much every) MMO they play, which says that the gameplay can change at any time, and by accepting those terms they accept that they have no right to expect things to always stay the same or never suffer nerfs/buffs to themselves or others.

Because... yeah. Welcome to MMOs, where gameplay actually can CHANGE from patches and you will never -always- be on top of the heap. If you constantly feel 'betrayed' by that when it happens in your game, then perhaps MMOs are not the right game for you.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 18:57

#39

Quasirandom

When you get that 3x UV gear,

When you get that 3x UV gear, they'll probably all be low UVs, and one of the three will be worthless. So it still won't be as good as a single very high UV in something useful.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 19:00

#40

LosingSleep

Legacy Username

This is like whining when

This is like whining when Apple releases a new iPod and your old one SUDDENLY doesn't cut it.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 19:28

#41

Senshi

Legacy Username

So...

Let me get this right. Three Rings released a patch that allows better items to be created than have existed ever before... and you don't like it because your old stuff is now obsolete. Did you -really- not expect better equipment to ever be released?

I sure did. Granted, I expected it to be in the form of totally new equipment not multiple UVs (although the 'sort by number of UVs' and other bits of terminology in past announcements have suggested for a -long- time that it was coming). Actually, I -still- expect new equipment when the core opens that will be better than past equipment (at least better in there, even if it scales back to balanced in the original three tiers).

It seems very strange to expect your equipment would -not- be made relatively less powerful by future releases. Better brace yourself now for it to happen again, since any areas with higher challenges than T3 are likely to also come with opportunities for better equipment.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 19:31

#42

Iron-Volvametal

Sooooooo...

Does this mean your stuff is up for grabs? :D

mer, 07/20/2011 - 19:32

#43

Ignominious

Legacy Username

1 good UV > 3 trash UV's. A

1 good UV > 3 trash UV's. A good 1 UV item will still be exceptionally good. Honestly, what do you think the odds are of getting VH ASI, VH CTR, and MAX dmg vs family would be on a weapon? The odds are astronomical and the price tag incalculable. Absolute top end gear went for roughly 20K CE, or roughly a million crowns depending on the trade ratio. That is 3 rolls on a 3 UV item which most likely won't yield anything fantastic. It is nothing compared to the cost of obtaining the new top end. The new top end is for the very lucky and insanely dedicated. The money you spent on your old gear is laughable compared to what the new stuff will cost.

If you're going to spend millions of crowns for an extra few % on one item then you've got bigger problems than your old gear being less than the best. The problem is you think you must have the best. Know your limits and accept what you are capable of earning. If you think you are always entitled to obtaining the best then you will never be happy because there will always be something better tomorrow.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 19:49

#44

Sylvanius

Legacy Username

I can't spell "intransigence".

I do hope that not everyone here makes it a point to come across as an ass when they post their half-baked manifestos.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 19:58

#45

novareid

Legacy Username

This. That is all.

This.

That is all.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 20:12

#46

Rommil

lol

regardless of what you think of his position, the "how does this revalue what you have" and the "this doesn't devalue what you have" arguments are pretty darn laughable.

edit:

and my suggestion was a one time "transmute" option on a weapon with a pre-existing UV. so if you want to roll for two, or three UVs, you could transmute the UV on it (whatever it is) and get one or two new ones. For the same exorbitant cost. Perhaps make this option available for 7 days, so anyone who has issue, then has the time to address that issue. It'd be pretty much win-win. As well as forcing one's hand. LOOK, IF YOU WANT THOSE UVs GO PAY FOR THEM NOW, OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE.

Seems to me that would be the fairest course of action. Those who feel they were wronged would have a chance to "right the wrong" done to them. Those who are new wouldn't actually be out anything, or put in any sort of disadvantage.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 20:12

#47

Ilikebread

Hehe. Just work your way up

Hehe. Just work your way up again. Three rings may be money grubbing, but what are they seriously suppose to do, never add better weapons again? Think about it this way, you still have the same armor in the game. Your problem is that you don't want others to surpass you with these new updates, since barely anyone has triple UVs right now, it puts them at equal footing with you.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 20:14

#48

Rommil

@bluestarfish

"You knew this patch was coming for a long time, it's kind of silly to be a big drama queen about it."

you do realize that no one had any idea about the UV roll until here recently. No one had any idea about 3 UVs and the implications there of until today!!!
i mean, if you are going to make an argument, at least get your facts straight first. SHEEESH.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 20:20

#49

Rommil

for the record

i'll state that i think there is a certain level of unfairness to the whole scenario. And when i read about it, i decided, thats enough for me too. i'm done. But after i saw the prices they were/are charging, i don't really care.

If you want to spend your time and money @ 375k a wack for three UVs. god help you and god bless. i wish you the best of luck. (this is assuming that 2 and 3 UVs are super rare when crafting---i hope they are) If anything, at this point, i kinda wish they didn't do the single UV roll, or made it more like 50k. But thats just personal opinion.

oh--and for those arguing about planned obsolescence, well, i see where you are coming from. BUT. planned obsolescence doesn't happen in a day. It doesn't happen without warning. There is a reason (such as the computer or iphone example) those companies spread it out over a year, and on a set time frame with, by-and-large, transparency on what is happening. There is sort of an unwritten agreement b/w the producer and their consumers. Everyone of you on here with (insert fancy phone here, say the new Iphone for this example) would have cried foul if you purchased the new Iphone and 5 days later they released a NEWER IPHONE.

so while the argument starts to make sense, ultimately it doesn't work. you aren't comparing apples to apples, and in this case, its not even close to apples to apples, thus a very faulty analogy.

mer, 07/20/2011 - 20:24

#50

Rommil

and while i'm expressing annoyance

at all the terrible arguments (i don't fault anyone for the "side they take," but at least have a good argument, if you are going to engage in internet arguing) i feel it worthwhile to say that ingominious has hit the nail on the head.

He is one of the only people who addressed the issue and showed where it was flawed. While at the same time, also clearly acknowledging that yes, this has in many ways, devalued the worth of the previous top-teir "prestige" items.

Recherche

OOO No loyalty to loyal following---DEV RESPONSE WOULD BE NICE