I really feel like all the new lairs for the Ultimate bosses are made just so you cant escape, and so that you're forced to run away and pull out a Gun, or a Bomb. I don't feel like Im having fun when Im forced to use one kind of weapon. All the rooms are tight, and cramped up, and it seems like all the designers have on their minds right now is the stun status, since there are lumbers everywhere. I don't feel like Im supposed to be fighting, I feel like Im supposed to be running from everything in a cramped up hallway. What do you guys think?
Design Choices
Sat, 10/15/2011 - 20:41
Sat, 10/15/2011 - 22:07
#2
@ Earnestevans
Yes, new enemies that take more hits to kill would have been much better. This is why I enjoy fighting monsters like Toxilargo, or Lichen Colonies. They still have quick movement, and powerful attacks, but its still easy enough to maneuver with them around. Most of the new things in this update seem to be re-skins, anyways.
Sun, 10/16/2011 - 02:11
#3
So basically, you want fight
So basically, you want fight to with a sword only and you complain that the lvls that are supposed to be the hardest ones of the game aren't easily beaten without using all options you have as a team/player? And so you propose, to have less enemies, with more hp, to force everyone else to mainly use swords too, instead of p.E. reducing the hp of the mobs with a bomb (which can deal insane DPS if there's many mobs ;)) and then finishing off the stronger ones / leftovers with swords & guns?
Sun, 10/16/2011 - 17:27
#4
I feel as if the Developers
I feel as if the Developers are adding mobs to boss fights, and decreasing mobility (by congestion and the new Slow Fields), in attempts to make them harder, versus focusing on improving the bosses themselves. This definitely succeeds in making things tougher, but it also makes the fights less unique and quite a bit less tolerable. (Note the very small respawn time of mobs in certain instances.)
If I could speak directly to the Devs, I would ask that they spare a few mobs, add a bit more space in certain areas (there's a lot of unreasonable congestion in UIMF for example), and add new functions to the bosses.
Sun, 10/16/2011 - 16:29
#5
The Good: Curse Zombies,
The Good: Curse Zombies, Unexpected status effects (Ice Jelly Palace threw me, big time.), Addition of new turrets to old boss zones.
The Bad: Not enough room to move, Period. If you don't have a sword, you are screwed in these fights. As a gunslinger, I simply cannot dodge the sheer amount of damage that is coming my way enough to land hits of my own. Instead of throwing tons and tons of mobs at us, increase the variety of mobs in the fight (forcing weapon and tactic swaps.) and add interesting mechanics (like the snarby fight where you need to kill turrets to open the gates. That would have been an awesome fight if I wasn't taking damage every time I put down my shield to shoot.)
The Ugly: Instantly Respawning Turrets. Horrible idea. Do. Not. Implement. This.
Turrets are dangerous foes, especially in T3. There is a good reason why Howlitzers, Polyps, and Rocket Turrets are attacked first and destroyed quickly: They are too dangerous to leave alive! Don't punish players for getting rid of a particularily dangerous enemy by making them respawn. All it does is promote ragequits and decrease (my) desire to play at all. If you must include a respawning enemy, they MUST be relatively easy to kill (such as mini-jellies, or the special 1-thorn Polyps in the Ultimate Jelly Palace boss fight.)
Sun, 10/16/2011 - 16:44
#6
"So basically, you want fight
"So basically, you want fight to with a sword only and you complain that the lvls that are supposed to be the hardest ones of the game aren't easily beaten without using all options you have as a team/player? And so you propose, to have less enemies, with more hp, to force everyone else to mainly use swords too, instead of p.E. reducing the hp of the mobs with a bomb (which can deal insane DPS if there's many mobs ;)) and then finishing off the stronger ones / leftovers with swords & guns?"
Everything in this post. The current ultimates give huge incentives to actually utilize bombs. On live servers, you can go through most content with just DA and Polaris, and to me that is limiting the game hugely. This new content as a whole incentives you to actually think about every available option in the game. The fact that stuff that used to sit on the shelf IE most of the weapons aside from DA, Polaris, Shivermist, Argent Peacemaker, and Blitz Needle actually have a chance to shine is a good thing.
Not to mention on the armor front how a lot more sets are going to be utilized because damage is less avoidable so the player can't just use vog cub or skolver and easily get through all the content.
By the way, I found Ultimate Glooming Wildwoods to be the most fun. Royal Jelly was perhaps slightly too easy except for a few of the encounters.
"Turrets are dangerous foes, especially in T3"
Welcome to challenging content.
By the way, you clearly missed the purpose of the polyps if you think they're there to shoot thorns at you. They only do that if enough royal minis are up, their normal function is to respawn more royal minis to heal the King.
Sun, 10/16/2011 - 17:13
#7
Bombs are Suicide
I don't buy the idea that dozens of enemies in closed spaces is supposed to promote bomb usage. Bombs are great for AoE only when there is space to move around. Today I tried a bombing build in Ultimate Royal Palace, Ultimate Ironclaw Munitions Factory, and Ultimate Gloaming Wildwoods. I was able to tear up URP with an Ash of Agni because of the large, open areas and easily kitable monsters. However using bombs in UIMF and UGW simply did not work out well. There were too many monsters in too confined of a space to be able to effectively place bombs. Getting the 4 seconds needed to charge a bomb without taking damage or shielding is nearly impossible in many rooms and simply not worth the effort. I can often do more dps with a DA, and it doesn't put me in as much danger.
Sun, 10/16/2011 - 19:21
#8
"Welcome to challenging
"Welcome to challenging content"
There is a big difference between challenging, and stupidly difficult. Instantly re-spawning T3 turrets falls in the latter category.
I'm didn't make any comment on the new Polyps in the Royal Jelly fight. I'm saying that if you are going to re-spawn turrets, they should not be T3 turrets. (However, I would be PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH THE DIFFICULTY IF ALL RESPAWNING TURRETS WERE SIMPLY MADE INTO ONE TIME SPAWNS)
Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:01
#9
"(However, I would be
"(However, I would be PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH THE DIFFICULTY IF ALL RESPAWNING TURRETS WERE SIMPLY MADE INTO ONE TIME SPAWNS)"
I wouldn't. It would be too easy. The whole point is that you need to learn to fight while dodging projectiles. Without the turrets, the content isn't any noticeably different from FSC. FSC already exists, run that if you want that level of difficulty.
Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:23
#10
Insta-Respawning Turrets are a bit much...
Yeah, I am going to sort of agree with the respawning turrets thing. Specifically, the fact that some respawn the second you kill them.
There's one part in UFSC, near the end of Ashen Armory, where there's some Howlitzers that respawn. The thing with them is that they take a couple seconds to come back, so they're a bit more bearable, and there's actually a reason to kill them. The other ones in FSC that respawn instantaneously are kind of overwhelming. I don't really mind that they respawn, I just think it would be better if they took some time, even only one or two seconds, to come back. And if that seems too easy, maybe add some respawing melee based enemies. It's just the futility of killing the howls that bothers me.
Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:58
#11
Hmm
The Ultimates definitely encourage a more creative use of weapons. (And definitely armors!) Shiver is in all my loadouts for crowd control, except for Jelly where it is replaced by Ash. But the vortexes or blast bombs? No way, there isn't room or time to charge when constantly shielding or slashing for the knockback/quick kill. Even in UGWW I tried using DBB with CTR Max, but there are rarely times when I could pull it out so I ended up removing it from my loadout.
For me, the respawning turrets fell into two categories. There were some that you could use terrain or range to stay safe, I thought these were a fun and creative test of skill. Then there were the ones in close proximity with no cover at all, those weren't challenging they were annoying. In an organized party you should be able to overcome the annoying turrets; use 1-2 knights to handle respawning turrets then the other knights aggro and handle the mobs. Solo... good luck.
Mon, 10/17/2011 - 06:15
#12
"I wouldn't. It would be too
"I wouldn't. It would be too easy. The whole point is that you need to learn to fight while dodging projectiles. Without the turrets, the content isn't any noticeably different from FSC. FSC already exists, run that if you want that level of difficulty."
Except for the added hazard floors, a vastly higher number of mobs, and the added unique features for the fights (Snarby joining in the first arena in Terrilous trail. Slag Guards added to many fights in FSC, Ice-themed jellies in URJP.) make them noticeably harder without adding turrets that constantly spam the (very limited) available movement area with projectiles. I'm perfectly happy with most of the levels and the difficulty, but wherever I see respawning turrets I find myself going down easily 3+ times or more in quick succession. This isn't a case of learning to dodge the projectiles, it's virtually impossible to do so. Focusing down a turret, especially when it's in a difficult to reach spot, is a tactical and smart decision. Punishing a player for doing so is... well... Absurd.
Mon, 10/17/2011 - 12:14
#13
Focusing a turret down isn't
Focusing a turret down isn't a decision though. You just do it and then continue with the fight. It doesn't add anything of value if it is the first thing killed and then you proceed with the fight like it was never there.
And yes, for some of the fights there are unique gimmicks that are difficult to overcome, but they can't do that for every single fight. Sometimes they need to just bust out some standard but difficult encounters. Unkillable turrets provide that level difficulty for fights that don't have as challenging a gimmick. Do you whine that you can't kill snarby, you can't kill the missile spawners, or you can't kill floor traps? No. Think of them in the same way - an ever present danger that you have to avoid while defeating the enemy. At least turrets are CC'able, count yourself lucky.
Tue, 10/18/2011 - 02:31
#14
Try a combination of nitro,
Try a combination of nitro, vortex, ash, maybe briar (and if you want it really relaxing shiver). Also 1-2 team mates that have practice playing with a bomber + are good at shield-bumping as a team (like: get stray mobs back in order. And keep them away from team members that are currently charging their weapons) . And maybe a "sniper" that good in interrupting especially nasty attacks in two places at once (use shield cancel to bump backwards)... stuff like that.
Tue, 10/18/2011 - 10:52
#15
Relating to what Ufana said,
Relating to what Ufana said, I've always been curious about this combination:
- 1 Knight lays Graviton Vortex
- 1 Knight lays Venom Veiler
- 2 Knights guard and fend off monsters who might interrupt the others' bomb charging
In general, the GV would bring in all close monsters, the VV would (most likely) poison them. Assuming the second two Knights are doing a good enough job blocking incoming attacks, both bomb layers would be able to successfully land a bomb every attempt. Now that the monsters are in a concentrated (and poisoned) area, major AoE/mob control damage could occur by all 4 Knights at once. I think if a team perfected their timing abilities, this might prove to be an effective strategy to use in a battle like this. But then again, it might not be worth the complications, and you would probably need defending Knights with strong armour to resist possible shield-downed attacks.
I certainly agree with you that the new lairs feel much more cramped. I believe that difficulty was increased in many areas by simply adding loads more of basic enemies, which I think was excessive in areas. I would have preferred new stronger enemy types rather than just a greater number of the same old ones, however I realize that would also require a considerably larger amount of development work. In this aspect, I approve of the new curse zombies, and it would be cool to add new enemy types to the other Ultimate lairs. For example, gun puppies in Ultimate Roarmulus that fire Polaris bullets would really liven things up without needing to place 3 regular mecha knights instead.