Spiral Knights - A simple and very effective way to balance and improve Lockdown.

A simple and very effective way to balance and improve Lockdown.

14 Réponses [Dernière contribution]

ven, 01/06/2012 - 08:10

Renpartycat

Let's face it. We all know PvP is horribly unbalanced. While it is a great element, it's also a very difficult feature to both implement and balance. I've played many games with PvP, and every PvP system I've encounter has balance issues. In fact, I'm sure every video game with PvP has balance problems. But let's get started on the topic at hand, shall we?

This suggestion makes use of a "Weapon Triangle" and it promotes more teamwork and synergy with each class: Striker, Recon and Guardian. For those of you who don't know what a Weapon Triangle is, it's quite simple. It consists of three weapons. One weapon is strong against another but weak against the other. The only time weapons can be neutral is when you fight fire with fire: two of the same weapons. In a nutshell, this suggestion will benefit Lockdown not only in terms of balance, but it will make the game mode more fun or entertaining. It will also make Lockdown more competitive, seeing as it would be much more skill-based.

Here's what I have in mind. Each class has three weapon slots. In each they have a Sword, a Gun and a Bomb specifically designed for each tier of Lockdown. A 3-Strike sword, a 3-Strike Gun, and a Blast Bomb. These weapons will be distributed to everyone and everyone has the same Sword, Gun and Bomb. That way, the game mode becomes skill-based. If you get killed, you either made a mistake or your opponent may have been slightly more skilled than you. Each of these weapons will have your team color on them, so it's even easier to tell friends apart from foes. Not only that, but you will receive a special Shield, Helmet and Armor which will also have your team's color. This defensive gear will have the same Defense values so nobody will have superior gear. All damage and defense will be the Normal type in Lockdown. As I've said before, this will promote more teamwork and it will make Lockdown much more skill based. You'll have to rely on teamwork, the special ability of your class, and most importantly, your skill.

Some of you agree, some of you disagree, and the rest of you aren't sure how exactly this would work out. If you can handle a serious debate or discussion, and if you have any thoughts or constructive criticism, feel free to post.

But, if you're just another random prodigal that squanders obscene amounts of money on this game to get Max UVs you're probably gonna complain because you can't use your expensive weapons, and you're gonna use your empty wallet as an excuse. The lot of you need to realize that this game has always been skill based, and it always will be. If you don't believe me, try running through FSC with Proto Gear and one 5 star weapon that doesn't have any CTR UVs other than the one it gets at Level 10, and no Brandishes (until they balance it). After that, go to Lockdown and tell me how many matches you can win without taking a single pip of damage, and you must have a decent amount of kills and damage in each game. Nobody really cares about all the money you spent on this video game. Even if it's an obscene amount. Because at the end of the day, you know deep in your heart that the rest of us, the knights that spend decent, little or no amounts of money on this game can get the job done just as good as you can, and your obsession with Variants and virtual items has burned your wallet. Sorry but it's the truth. It's good to spend some money on the game to show Three Rings some support, and get something nice out of it, but there's a limit and you just don't see it.

Of course, the health values for Striker, Recon and Guardian may need to be tweaked a bit. Just so we don't have everyone playing as Guardian. Now I'm not saying everyone should have the same amount of health, just a slight tweak. Another change I strongly believe is important for Lockdown's balance is a slight nerf to Strikers. Add a short cooldown to the strike booster. Sure, you can still use all of your strike booster's energy in one go, but when you stop you'll have to wait a moment before you can strike again. A 3 second cooldown is what I'm looking at here. Just to ensure that we don't have strikers exploiting lag, as it's one of the major issues in Lockdown. It's quite annoying and game-breaking to see a striker hit an enemy once without taking damage, quickly striking and attacking again immediately afterwards and repeating the process. At the moment, playing Striker doesn't require any skill. The quick cooldown should fix that, and besides, the cooldown starts when you stop moving, so you can spend some of your three seconds attacking and your strike booster should be ready quickly afterwards. Discuss.

ven, 01/06/2012 - 08:29

Ztype

I love this idea. This is the

I love this idea. This is the gateway to divine equality. :D. You have a really good idea here. For people like me (the majority) we are not fuelled by ce, we are fuelled by skill. Also it will help to bring a variety of equipment in LD.

ven, 01/06/2012 - 08:39

Softs

Well... that would truthfully

Well... that would truthfully get rid of the reason I like Lockdown, choosing a strategic set and seeing if it's viable against a human character. I agree that Lockdown is problematic, and I agree that the player's ability to take advantage of singular techniques (primarily shield-cancelling) and gear combinations is the problem, but I wouldn't trade the current state of things for a match where I couldn't choose my own gear...

ven, 01/06/2012 - 08:54

Juances

-1

You fix the problem by taking out variety.
That's boring.

If you really want this, make it a separated mode and leave current lockdown alone, until you find a better idea.

For the record, I never spent a penny on the game for my main character, but i still have some 'godly' UVs i collected over time. Money makes things faster, but you can reach the top without it.

ven, 01/06/2012 - 09:02

Mohandar

Playing striker doesn't require any skill?

I think this is a fantastic idea, but you've got some things slightly off. Truly mastering the Striker class (in the current setting) takes a lot of skill, although it's true that class overall is horribly overpowered. It should say something that a skilled striker can take down a guardian all too easily, let alone dueling a recon.

I'm wondering if what we need is a class triangle- design it so that each class has a particular advantage over another class. For example, Striker > Recon > Guardian > (Striker). It kind of makes sense, Recons are scouts not intended for melee combat, weak to Strikers that excel in fast, hard-hitting melee; Guardians are susceptible to bombs and sniping, but can hold their position against (relatively weaker) Strikers.

ven, 01/06/2012 - 09:13

Nacho

I agree with juances. You

I agree with juances. You take out variety.

ven, 01/06/2012 - 09:14

Renpartycat

@Softs, Juances

With my idea you have access to a Sword, a Gun and a Bomb while playing. Aside from my suggestion, you already have 3 different classes to choose: Striker, Recon and Guardian. What more could you possibly want? With great balance, teamwork and synergy Lockdown can still be as fun as it's always been (At least when you manage to enter a balanced match or you just somehow enjoy Lockdown in general even in it's current state) and it's generally better because it's skill-based.

Honestly, the only "variety" you're looking for is flashy weapons and gear. Are you expecting everyone to look like they're playing in Proto gear? Trust me, you have enough variety already. And don't worry, I'm 100% sure that if Three Rings ever considers spending time implementing my ideas, they'll make the Lockdown Gear look cool. Perhaps each armor will have a different style for each class? Maybe they'll even add cosmetic changes to the weapons or come up with new weapon models. You never know when people will start saying things like "Man, I wish I could wear that Lockdown gear on my knight all the time." Maybe if the hype is great enough, Three Rings might release the Lockdown Gear for knights to wear when roaming through the clockworks. Or maybe even new accessories along with such an update.

It might sound strange at first, but trust me when I say this: Don't knock it til you try it. We can't try it just yet, but here's a question I'm sure you can answer right now: Would you rather have a balanced, fun and skill based Lockdown, or a pay-to-win Lockdown with major balance issues? I'm being honest here. These are your choices. Because the best way to balance Lockdown is in this very thread. However, you're entitled to your own opinion so you don't HAVE to agree with me, but I'm just trying to convince you is all.

ven, 01/06/2012 - 10:07

Blue-Phaze

Wow, Renpartycat, you write

Wow, Renpartycat, you write too much '-' that 5th paragraph was completely off topic. It has nothing to do with your suggestion. You should delete it.
About the suggestion itself... I agree with Juances, I think it's a bit too drastic, I mean, taking out LD's WHOLE variety just so the matches can be balanced.
There are many other ways LD could be balanced, you don't need to [screw] up its whole gear system. You don't need to make every player play with the same gear, you just need to make all gear play the same; with slight advantages/disadvantages, ofc, for the sake of strategy. That's the basic difference between restriction and balance.
I do like the old "rock paper scissors" balance though. This triangle is balanced but only involves three offensive possibilities.
That said, you should consider making a "triple triangle", applying "class triangle", "weapon triangle" and "damage triangle". Like this:
Class - Striker > Recon > Guardian > (Striker)
Weapon - Swords > Guns > Bombs > (Swords)
Damage - Piercing > Shadow > Elemental > (Piercing)
Maybe, this triple triangle could give LD its variety back while still making it balanced.
I can already imagine how this would work:
Before any LD match, players would have to choose their triangle combination. A Shadow Striker Swordsman, or an Elemental Guardian Gunner for instance. "Wow, I don't even know how many combinations are possible" = Variety.

Something you should consider:
The more "advantage points" you have over your opponent, the more damage you would deal.
These advantage points would be ranked from 0 to 6. You can get up to 2 points from each triangle.
Disadvantage = 0
Neutral = 1
Advantage = 2
Example: A Shadow Striker Swordsman would have 4 AdvPts over an Elemental Guardian Gunner (while EGG has only 2 AdvPts over SSS)
Maybe I should create my own thread about this....

ven, 01/06/2012 - 10:18

Uuni

IMO they should give all

IMO they should give all weapons different stats in PvP and start hitting stuff with nerfhammer and buffbanner. For example make wolver completely useless at first, see what people start using after that, nerf that a bit and make wolver in par with that and so forth. Same with DA, GF, Polaris and BTB/FF. Nerf the most used to ground and see what people pick up after that. Drop the damage a significant amount and see what people prefer after that.

Another method is to give something nobody uses a huge buff, like iron slug or sudaruska. Then try to make others in par with them, not over them

ven, 01/06/2012 - 18:21

Nacho

Too drastic. Replacing

Too drastic. Replacing every weapon and amour is too much. If you think about it, all weapons of the same star are supposed to be at the same level, even though they arent.

They should balance the weapons instead. But if you want that armour weapon thig, they could be a prize bought with krogmo coins. It would be cool to have lockdown specialized armour.

ven, 01/06/2012 - 18:20

#10

Slayzz

Just decrease the range of

Just decrease the range of flourishes, and there. Problem solved.

ven, 01/06/2012 - 21:08

#11

Renpartycat

About the whole "variety" argument.

There's a good reason why I've designed my suggestion to be like this. I wanted Lockdown to become completely fair and balanced. I wanted Lockdown to be a game of pure skill and teamwork.

And there's also a reason why I made it so that everyone plays on an even level. It was so everything would be fair, so nobody could complain about weapons. People are still complaining about certain weapons such as Heavy Swords, Rapiers, Pulsar Guns, and every other overused weapon in Lockdown. No complaining about what weapon that other guy's using, if you died you died due to a mistake, or your opponent may have been slightly more skilled than you.

I can see through your arguments here. Clearly the lot of you want flashy weapons, and you want Lockdown to stay in it's current state: A tedious game mode where dying in an instant is the only "fun" allowed. If you think balance can be implemented in another way, please prove yourself and post your knowledge. Because as far as I know, there are only three ways to balance Lockdown.

- Perfect Balance (My suggestion, makes Lockdown skill-based and promotes teamwork)
- Class-based Balance (Replace all weapons with two special weapons to play with in Lockdown, Striker/Recon/Guardian get different weapons each)
- False Balance (Only nerf or revamp a few weapons)

If you want False Balance, that's fine. Don't come back to me when you feel like changing your mind. It's your opinion and I will respect that. But in all honesty, I'm trying to balance Lockdown for great justice. I want to make PvP skill-based. I want PvP to require great amounts of teamwork. Because you know what the truth is? You want to know why PvP is so imbalanced in so many different games? Because they don't think like I do. Many of us have strong minds that are ignored by the consensus of buffoons that have been overshadowed with logic-breaking arguments and lies, and due to that, not everyone can see the true point in a good thread and why it could be great. But they see one little thing they don't like, and they start complaining. No video game is perfect and there will never be one. We all experience changes we aren't used to, but in the end we adapt and see how nice these changes are.

But there is still hope. Someone mentioned how my idea would be better for a different game mode? Just take everything from the first post and use it to form a Team Deathmatch sort of game mode. Sadistic and masochistic knights that think dying every second is fun can play Lockdown, and those with higher class and standards can enjoy the fun of a skill-based, teamwork friendly PvP environment. There, now everyone's happy. Is it so hard to realize the truth when it's been thrown at your face multiple times? We now have a solution for all of this. Three Rings takes my ideas and makes Team Deathmatch, it distracts everyone from Lockdown, Three Rings attempts to balance Lockdown while everyone's trying out Team Deathmatch, and soon PvP will become truly balanced. With everyone happy, Three Rings will gain more profit, and possibly another opportunity to make one of their nice CE sales/deals.

Sorry if I sounded a little aggressive there, I'm just giving you the straight, raw truth. Didn't mean to upset anyone or shoot down anyone's opinions.

ven, 01/06/2012 - 23:48

#12

Blue-Phaze

Hey renpartycat, I like your

Hey renpartycat, I like your way of thinking. It's just like mine. You don't care about personal instantaneous profits like 'Make them guns/bombs stronger NOW', you care about the game. You care about the community and what's the best way to contribute with the developers. But hey, chill, this is the internet, not everyone thinks the way we do ;)
Your suggestion's great, but the cons were already pointed out, LD would probably become kinda boring without the whole strategy of choosing your gear before a match. I don't know about you, but that part of the game that you're just standing there at haven, not playing, but strategically thinking about how you could beat those bastards in LD is close to half of the fun I want from a game. switching it all to pre-determined gear wouldn't be something I call "exciting" if you know what I mean... Matches would become all the same after some time.

Just try playing rock-paper-scissors for a whole hour. I can't stand even 10 minutes...

sam, 01/07/2012 - 00:05

#13

Renpartycat

@Blue-Phaze

The biggest problem is the fact that PvP is the hardest element to implement and balance in a video game.

We might be able to form a great idea, but chances are whatever we post will have a few flaws in it. It takes time and effort to come up with a decent idea, even if it's a failure. But these ideas inspire other ideas, and within time we will have the right set of changes ready to be added in. It's like forging a sword. Anyone can try it, but not everyone may succeed right away. Over time we get better from trial and error. With great practice, skill and inspiration, one can craft the finest blade of them all.

Sooner or later we will find that blade and treasure it all across the lands. But until that day comes, keep at it in hopes of forging the best blade, or in this case, formulating the best idea.

sam, 01/07/2012 - 00:27

#14

Biodragey

@Renpartycat

THANK YOU! God, about time someone said this! Gah the reason don't like LD is cos of the lack of teamwork in it >_> I mean really the new people in T2 LD (yes T2!) always never pay attention to other players in their team + they don't know where the chat log is >_> so trying to talk is USELESS!
Once I organised it so I healed people (Guardians heal) guess what? They ran straight through me ignoring the heal effect then we all died. + so many people in T2 use Twisted Snarble Barb it just takes away skill!!!!

Whoops sorry noticed that the part about the chat log is off-topic. Sorry! Nonetheless it is true D:

Recherche

A simple and very effective way to balance and improve Lockdown.