Spiral Knights - Specialized Sheilds?

Specialized Sheilds?

8 Réponses [Dernière contribution]

lun, 04/02/2012 - 20:53

Wtfbot

So I was thinking today, " I could run all three damage types and always do good damage at every floor." Then I thought, " I wish I could do that with shields."

So I thought, what if they had shields that had no normal defences, but instead had very heavy Elemental/Pierce/Shadow. Only a single damage type and health(average or above average health.) Then imagine you could hold two of these shields( after unlocking the slot), but only these specific shields. You'd use a button to switch them, let's say E by default with the option to rebind. And the better reaction you had with the shields the less damage you would take, but the worse you were with the switch and the damage you would take would be un shielded. These shields would have the ability to completely negate damage types, or they could be completely useless.

Basically I want more risk for reward(something like using a Swiftstrike buckler and Skolver armor in FSC) to my shield choice, and increase the skill cap at the same time.

So what does The Arsenal think?

lun, 04/02/2012 - 21:33

Demonicsothe

The Arsenal believes that

The Arsenal believes that suggestions go in Suggestions.

So what you are saying is, give knights the ability to use 2 shields. Because knights are super fragile things. And we require 2 shields, even if both of them give insanely nice weapon bonus.

Completely negate damage? So, no point to its health. Well, duh. Shields should never break. They are shields afterall.

Also, I'd like to suggest that knights be able to attack while shielding.

lun, 04/02/2012 - 21:50

Wtfbot

No you always take normal

No you always take normal damage so yes it could break, it would non-mitigated true damage on the health. I never said anything about weapon bonus's either. I love it when words are put in my mouth.

Also why don't we have a shield that alows a quick weak swipe? Why don't we have sheilds with double bubble area and increased bump distance? Why don't we have shields that do directional protection? Why don't we have a shield that when you block just as you take a hit it either mitages all the damage completely or gives you an damage/speed boost? Why don't we have shields that allow movement through hazards while taking damage?

What I am saying is I'd like to see these have a little more depth then "Set it and forget it." Give us an advantage that's not completely numbers, and give us disadvantages that make use way risk against the rewards.

lun, 04/02/2012 - 21:56

Demonicsothe

Still in the wrong

Still in the wrong forum.

What you are suggesting is dual wield shields. A.k.a., duel wield swiftstrike and bts.

No idea what kind of shield should only take one swipe, and ssb is weak enough. Increased bubble means increased areas protected, even beyond your knight. Why would you want this I don't know. Bump is, at least partly, determined by shield hp. Go craft an omega. Why would u want directional protect, this screws up gunners and swords. And what if you get swarmed, your backside is open. Reaction type shields are punishing on players with lag. And any sort of buff is again, unnecessary. Are you finding the game really hard? We do have shields that allows you to walk through hazards while taking damage. Try letting go of the shield key. Or, just learn to avoid traps.

lun, 04/02/2012 - 22:57

Wtfbot

Sorry wrong forum, just let

Sorry wrong forum, just let them move this topic, and let's forget about it.

No I am suggesting a new type(s) of shields. The old types would stay as they are, but you can only hold one of them. The new shields would have a second slot available. A new mechanic if you will. The trade off is you would always take damage on it's health, meaning it would be very easy to break if you are hit with the wrong damage type, and the health would last long enough vs normal so that it was on par with current shields. In order to not die you'd need to react to the damage type you are taking. Much like if you are in FSC and you are killing slags with your Glacious and the trojan in the room spawns, you switch to your Blitz needle in order to quickly take care of him. If you hadn't it would take much more time to kill him then it would if you hadn't.

And all those things I just ran off. All of those are really really rough draft. In game design those are called "Pre-Production." They aren't meant to have hard numbers, they aren't meant to really be implemented in their current state. They are simply idea's. And the idea's I am suggesting is something like what they have done with Guns, bombs, and sword charges. They add mechanics to the game that make it interesting to work with. IE Risk vs Reward: rewarding good play, punishing bad play. Meta assessment: This map is full of traps I wonder what type of shield is best for that? Team Supporting: a shield something Lockdown guardian with a larger bubble.

Also thank you for attacking me with you "Is this game to hard for you?" Actually I was a free to play player in about five 5*'s for months and months were I ground a combination of Jelly king and FSC. I've been playing for 44 weeks now with a few hiatuses. I used to often solo dive t3 and work the recipe market back in the days before HoH's. I don't need a stronger shield, infact I don't hardly even need a shield for FSC anymore. I just want a shield that feels like it does more then just block. I want it to have something interesting about it. Not just some passive stat boost and some tweaked numbers. "Oh I can optimize my loadout for this area! Yay! So deep!"

I feel like you just want to shut everything down cause you don't want anything different. The cool thing is even if any of these were implemented it would still be 100% optional, it probably wouldn't even be optimal. You know what that means? Even if you think they are stupid, or pointless, or just not for you. People could still use them and you wouldn't have too. They'd leave your favorite shield alone. But you know when you see someone doing something neat with a new mechanic I bet your gonna reconsider.

lun, 04/02/2012 - 22:56

Demonicsothe

To move forum, go to edit on

To move forum, go to edit on your original post. There should be an option to move it to Suggestions.

lun, 04/02/2012 - 23:19

Demonicsothe

If one is still allowed to

If one is still allowed to hold an existing shield, you basically create a ssb with different damage resistance. Or, a bts with shadow/elemental. And in the zombie/trojan case, one could conceivable use a shadow shield of your design i the new slot, while using a vps or the like in the original slot. Like I said earlier, this unnecessarily makes the game easier.

This is my problem with this, the balance part of it. A regular shield that has already proved itself capable for a floor/strat of any kind alone. Pair it with a new shield that blocks 100% of a special damage. This removes what little decision you needed to make when choosing a shield for a floor. For your special shields with no abilities and simply a huge defesive value, no. Removes a challenge, when the challenge itself is not hard.

Basically, shields as a whole aren't broken, or in need of a buff. They work perfectly fine.

And then there are the shields with new mechanics. This becomes the reverse of what I explained earlier with the ssb example. But instead of a great buff shield in one slot, you have it in another. And this is if you give it bad/ no defensive values at all.

Something neat like what? Beating up that jelly faster? Running through clockwork mile faster? Blasting the trojan halfway across the room with a directed shield? Exactly what mechanics are you proposing to the devs to add? My post here isn't to disagree with everything you say. Its to provide a different point of view. The point of view that asks, "why".

That's why I'm disagreeing, so you can flesh out your ideas, instead of a vague "buff when something happens", or something concrete. Numbers aren't required, but an approximation is better.

mar, 04/03/2012 - 00:41

Wtfbot

No once again you've gotten

No once again you've gotten this incorrect. I didn't say we should have 3 shields. It would replace your current shield. There would be no VPS+ Singlel-Damage type shields. IT would either be VPS(example of a good single damage type shield) or single damage type shields.

And Balance comes after everything, it's not even a concern cause nothing I have said is in stone so you need not worry about that. Numbers can always be tweaked to put these ON PAR with other shields. Furthermore I've already spoken of the disadvantages of these shields that more then makes up for the advantages you would get.

And again you are still acting like you get SSB or BTS on the off hands, I get it you were confused though, and I didn't know why you were so opposed as far as it goes.

Why not? Why not have the option? Why not be able to not use it? Why not get a shield( much like picking between Brandish line or DA/GF) that fits your play style? Why not have a shield that acts more like a support role then anything else? Why not give us a shield that actually let's us give ourself and advantage in attackdamage by quick reflexes?

I'm not asking for a buff to shields, if anything I'm completely opposed to that, I'm asking for shields that have glaringly obvious disadvantages in defense, mobility, or general useability, and offer either Mobility, utility, support, or offence. Mobility being sorta like Quicksilver items where they give you a speed boost even if they don't give you much more then that. Utility being like Shivermist or Shock items, basically it would some form of crowd control( not stun locking or anything but a little more then the normal shield bump.) Support being something like shared damage or a slow area heal, or an Area AoE damage resistance buff.

The thing is if I get to detailed on these things then you will do nothing but tear my post up for wanting OP things in the game, or that I just want to make the game easier or something. Or you will just say "Oh well it's just pointless to put in weaker things." But what I am saying is the old "Starcraft: Broodwar," way of balancing. That "everything is OP in one way," and "everything is UP in one way." So you are stuck with this interesting dichotomy. Where you have to make choices to best suit either your playstyle or the playstyle you are used to in that certain area/position.

I'll give an example:

One of my problems with FSC and really the game as a whole is that when some hazard is laid down on the ground. It's either take damage and move away from it(unless it's shivermist or some type of shock and then you just get stun locked for days) or Shield and be pushed away from it. These hazards are "area denial's." I don't mind "area denial's," infact I like the idea, I think we need more. The problem I have with it is if you are caught in them AT ALL you are in a lose lose situation. On one hand you have to either sit there and let your shield break( spikes) or hope it stops( Zombie breath). So if we had a shield that gave us movement while it blocked damage to us from the hazard for a short period of time(enough to get a cross a small patch of spikes or fire when needed). Currently there is no good way out of hazards in this game, there literally is only take damage or wait for it to end and hope your shield doesn't break, that's pretty anti-fun. So I want a shield that can deal with that, why wouldn't we want a shield that could deal with that. What's it's disatvantage? Slower shielding movement speed at all times, it's a good trade cause I could make it work thematically and call it the "Feather Foot." The idea would be you walk slowly with grace across traps and hazards, IE your feet are like feathers.

See? I gave the reason why you would want that shield and then I told you what you'd give up for that advantage.

Let's see if I can come up with another:
"The Silkwing." Look it up on the wiki you'll know what it does.

Description: A weak shield with minimal defences that constantly heals over time in a small area around the player. It resembles and act's very much like the monster by the same name.
Advantage: A slow AoE heal over time in a close proximety to the player.
Disatvantage: Can't heal other players with the same shield, can't heal yourself, very slow heal over time, very weak defences. The shield would pop it's self after a certain amount of healing.
Thought proccess: We don't have a good support item in this game, this is aiming to fix that with a slightly new mechanic for players. Yes this would be a weak weak shield, but the idea is that it would keep the other players strong during your time with them and that would more then make up for it.

I can keep going:
"Front line Defender."

Description: With a strong frontal defence a shield that favors positioning to tank more damage then the normal shield.
Advantages: The frontal cone of a player would have almost impenatrable defences.
Disadvantages: The remaing area on the players bubble( which would be shaded a different colour) would be as effective as shield's 2*s below your shields current rating.
Thought proccess: We need a shield for a tank, something like VPS crossed with an Omega shield but with some extra Umph up front.

These keep on rolling:
"The Iron Curtain."

Description: A lumbering wall of might, the bubble protects all inside but also slows the user.
Advantages: Shared damage in a moderate( less then Guardian shield) area around the shielding player.
Disatvantages: The shielding player will move slower the more teammates who move into his bubble. Also the shielding bubble has a set up time.
Thought Process: Basically another Tank/support shield with a slightly different role. This one is about keeping your team alive but also offers yourself a bit of protection. The slowed movement speed means you couldn't always stay up with your team but it would help you save people with clutch shields, the set up time would keep it so it wouldn't negate all damage constistantly.

Ohh let's go with some CC:
"Mist of War," yes I know fog, but Mist seemed more Apt for spiral knights.

Description: With a burst mist that clouds the vision of your foes.
Advantage: A disengage.
Disadvantage: Weak overall defences, has a cooldown( and UV's to reduce it), damage in the mist reveals player. Mist doesn't stop incoming attacks.
Thought Proccess: A shield or those who like to use the really really high damage/fast attacking equips some times being mobile and disenaging is the best way you can survive. What better way but have the enemy not focus on the squishy target?

I could keep going all night with these. The rought drafts of Specialized shields are not hard, it's much harder to keep them Themeatically relevant. And really balancing needs to come after EVERYTHING else as numbers will be easily tweaked to bring it in line.

mar, 04/03/2012 - 07:44

Demonicsothe

When did I say 3 shields? I

When did I say 3 shields? I was referring to your post when you said one slot for regular shields, and one slot for the special shields you are suggesting. You suggested 2 slots for a shield, with a key binded for each. And I was telling you why not. Because you can use a regular shield in the original spot. And then a better shield in this new slot you proposed.

I'm not even talking numbers. Even if you reduce the new, heavy damage resistance to something on par with current shields, it would still be imba. Buff shield in original, strong shield in new slot. That's not balanced. You're saying balance comes after everyone uses the new, nice looking mechanic, then nerf. Balance has to come before implementing. At least an attempt to balance has to.

Knights don't need an advantage, I believe I've said this. And this is referring to extra damage, movespeed, and attack speed you are proposing.

Are you now proposing shields that do a variety of other things? This is a suggestion forum, but most people will support your ideas better if you just give some specs of the new equipment. Not, "devs, I want a shield that does some extra stuff. Make some for me." People like to see your proposed ideas in a fleshed out form. All these rough drafts you have is a shield that does something. And you don't even bother explaining. If that's the way you suggest things, just make it into a list of "possible new shields added".

The only traps I can think of that forces you to stay inside the trap zone is freeze and shock. Freeze arguably the more dangerous one once you are on it. But if you do bring up ur shield, the hit will unfreeze you. And shock has ticks, so as long as you aren't in the middle of the trap, you can get out. And with your example of fsc, why are you standing in a fire pit waiting to be killed anywats?

That idea, at the very least, is overpowered. And your anti-fun argument is off because you are suggesting a shield that allows you to bypass the point of aoe denial mechanics. The point of such traps is to force you to move along a limited area, increasing the difficulty factor. Are traps really meant to be win-lose? You can always choose to take the damage and cross into another safe area.

Like I said, directional shields are unnecessary when current shields have all the defence you could need.

While archetypes are good and all, the current game mechanics don't support them. Nothing is hard enough to require a damage soaking player. And due to game mechanics, the monsters tend to aggro most hit/most damage players. Another problem with a bubble shield is that the guardian will move slower. By the the time you catch up, your party is already fighting. A good concept, but has no match in a easy game like this.

You want mobile and high dps? Try a brandish. If you are referring to the cutter line, it doesn't have good dps. And how long would it take the devs to implement a haze bomb that hides the player within range of the enemy, and only reveal when they are attacked? Maybe some sort of aoe recon cloak. But friendly mechs have been known to chase after stealthed enemies.

I can throw out ideas all day too, doesn't make you special or more deserving than the other people. Its how you incorporate such ideas into the game. Not, implement this because I want it. How are you hoping to change the game, add to mechanic, add to depth?

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