Ask a Master Gunslinger Anything
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 11:12
#52
Yes, it's a flat % of the
- Yes, it's a flat % of the ORIGINAL attack delay. As you continue to take this percentage off, the difference becomes effectively larger with each step since its a percent of the original delay taken off of the new, lower delay.
Nah, that's not how it works. You're thinking 4% IAS reduces swing timer by 4% but it actually increases the number of attacks you deal over time by 4% and, of course, reduces your animation accordingly.
Assuming a gun with 1s firing rate: 60 shots in 60s
What you're thinking:
50% IAS = 0.5s off firing rate = 60 extra shots (120 total).
100% IAS = 1s off firing rate = infinite shots.
How it actually works.
50% IAS = 50% more shots = 30 extra shots (90 total)
100% IAS = 100% more shots = 60 extra shots (120 total)
Regardless, IAS is still pretty important for reducing that animation delay but it's not as powerful as you believed.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 11:13
#53
@Fenix (continued)
I realized
@Fenix (continued)
I realized I missed part of your question, and forgive the double post but my last post was monstrous without the added info.
Yes, the bread and butter of my strategy is to exploit enemies' weaknesses by switching to the gun that does maximum damage for what I'm trying to kill. That being said, there are times I'll use the "wrong" gun on an enemy or a group if it's beneficial.
These are usually situations where we're somewhat overrun and crippling certain enemies becomes a higher priority than simply killing them.
The most common examples include locking down groups with my hail driver or disabling gremlin healers on T3 with my callahan since it knocks them down and interrupts their casts. Still, that's something that only happens when stuff hits the fan, so to speak.
Utility can be very important which is why I recommend the Callahan and an elemental alchemer to people that only carry two guns rather than a shadowtech alchemer. Still, for the majority of your play you'll want to use whatever weapon the enemy is weak to.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 11:23
#54
@Stardrinker (2):
Do you have
@Stardrinker (2):
Do you have insider information I'm unaware of? The difference is small enough that even if you FRAPS it and count individual frames you don't get clearcut results. Meanwhile I have secondhand information (purportedly from the horse's mouth) that it's shot delay, not attacks per time. Beyond even the hearsay, doing it your way makes a lot less sense from a coding perspective...
Curious what you're basing your info on.
P.S.
If you do have an inside line, a few gunning issues I'd love to have looked into are IAS not effecting reload time, the bug causing Magnus-line charge attacks to not fire if your back is against a wall (it hits the wall behind you), the bug causing Mangus-line charge attacks to pull enemies towards you instead of knocking them back (probably related to the previous bug), and the overall balance of the Iron Slug. Not the damage it does, but the firing mechanics since it loses the Magnus line's signature stun and does normal instead of piercing damage, but doesn't gain much functionality for these losses...
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 11:32
#55
Doing it the way he is
Doing it the way he is talking about is pretty much the only way you would want to code something like this. I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 11:34
#56
Nameless vs. Deadshot
isn't deadshot's curse resistance + shadow resistance + undead damage preferable to nameless' ias + elemental resistance?
i haven't seen the curse resistance discussed yet.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 11:41
#57
Well actually no. The only 2
Well actually no.
The only 2 sources of Curse is a Faust/Gran Faust and Phantoms.
Unless you go about spamming Faust charge or getting hit by phantoms alot, don't expect yourself to be cursed alot in the clockworks.
Undead Damage and Shadow Defense isn't necessary as you have Silvermail for undead and shadow and Angelic series for shadow.
Elemental Defense is too prevalent later in the game.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 11:42
#58
@Wallach:
My info is
@Wallach:
My info is secondhand and admittedly it's been a long time since I've done anything with C++. That being said, I was told (and honestly believe) that my method is what's actually used and is the best way to handle this kind of thing.
What matters from a game play perspective is how much time must pass between when someone attacks once and when they can attack again. This is the number the game cares about, the number that decides whether your next right click produces another attack or does nothing. Having this number attached to the weapon and directly modified by stats make sense. Calculating this number indirectly based off of a different number (shots per minute) and modifying that number than calculating the new delay is a very roundabout way of doing things.
@Raunwynn:
If you're farming graveyards, sure. Outside of that, the armor is kind of meh.
If you aren't using a Faust (and if you are, Nameless is out of the question) and aren't fighting phantoms, what's cursing you, exactly? :P
As a general rule, elemental damage is more prolific and is harder to avoid than shadow. This is especially true in the current end-game content.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 11:49
#59
i haven't seen any t3
i haven't seen any t3 content.
i'm just farming t2 and preparing for the expense of my 5* gear.
can you get too much elemental resistance?
i'm using the owlite shield and that has a bit of elemental on it already.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 11:50
#60
@Fossa: I don't think you
@Fossa: I don't think you quite understand what he's saying. There is not some X number shots per minute that the game is looking for. What he's saying is that the rate that IAS increases your shot timer is modified in such a way that it does not gain exponential value. He is explaining this in "shots per minute", but what he is really saying is that you shoot a flat amount faster with each rank of IAS given as a percentage of your normal shot rate. If you could thusly reach "100% IAS" (an irrelevant term in this game) you would shoot twice as fast as you previously could, not "infinitely" faster. That is what I meant about code; if each step is, say, 10% and the player could somehow reach 100% of this stat, you would want them to shoot twice as fast.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 11:58
#61
Do you have insider
- Do you have insider information I'm unaware of? The difference is small enough that even if you FRAPS it and count individual frames you don't get clearcut results. Meanwhile I have secondhand information (purportedly from the horse's mouth) that it's shot delay, not attacks per time. Beyond even the hearsay, doing it your way makes a lot less sense from a coding perspective...
Curious what you're basing your info on.
Just common sense really. No-one who's worth their salt in the gaming word handles IAS that way anymore. It was a relic of older games whose programmers didn't know any better. Even with a cap to IAS in the game, it's just something you don't do.
I've also done the tests with medium, high, v.high, ultra and maximum sword speed, timing them personally. Every increase in level gave a reliable 4% increase. As far as I know, that's more testing and evidence to support my claim than anything you've shown.
- If you do have an inside line, a few gunning issues I'd love to have looked into are IAS not effecting reload time, the bug causing Magnus-line charge attacks to not fire if your back is against a wall (it hits the wall behind you), the bug causing Mangus-line charge attacks to pull enemies towards you instead of knocking them back (probably related to the previous bug), and the overall balance of the Iron Slug. Not the damage it does, but the firing mechanics since it loses the Magnus line's signature stun and does normal instead of piercing damage, but doesn't gain much functionality for these losses...
I suggest you file a bug report for these, and if you already have, wait for a reply. And possibly try not to get too offended about this, as I have no ill intent.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 12:52
#62
@Fossa, thanks again
@Fossa
Thanks again for the pointers. I am serious about guns - I just slipped into Tier 3 with a Sunset hat / duster, was planning on going with Nameless armor before I read your post, moreso now. The Magnus is far from my only gun; I've got a cryo driver, shadow alchemer II, and a handful of others I'm trying out. (I actually had to cut back on my gun-habit, it was getting in the way of building up tier 3 armor)
I understand the damage benefits of stacking one of each element in your armory; I'm already doing that somewhat, taking guns that fit the enemies I expect. But I'm not trying to min-max my damage output just yet, and I'm very interested in the utility of a gun that's long range, works the same on everything, is too fast to dodge, and does splash damage for groups. Sounds like a fantastic general-purpose weapon.
Once I'm targeting the end-game, I'll probably build out a Callahan as well ... assuming I've given up on my needle gun by then. I know you called the autogun-series "not real guns", but the needler is just fun! And the needlers have both better range and a tighter spread than the basic autogun. I would love to see how well a Blitz Needle would rip into Vanaduke.
Regardless, if I change my mind and decide to unload the UV magnus, I'll let you know first.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 13:00
#63
I'm gearing up for lower
I'm gearing up for lower areas of T3 at this point, I play somewhat infrequently so it's slow going, but that is besides the point. Anyways I'm not really looking to be a gunslinger but I would like to be equipped with the best obviously. To pair off with whatever sword I choose to go with.
If I'm only going to use one gun through T3, is Callahan what you suggest? You think its the best overall high end gun to get me through to Vanaduke?
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 13:40
#64
@Wallach:
So apparently this
@Wallach:
So apparently this is a convention I'm woefully ignorant of. The last time I looked at this kind of code was in 2000. ;)
If this is an industry wide standard, something taught early on at places like Full Sail, then it definitely has weight, but I'm not sure that's the case or that they're necessarily following those conventions. Again, I've heard from someone who allegedly talked to a dev and they told me they're using the method I outlined, even if it is "outdated". It works for this game since the cap is so low.
I'm even more convinced this is the case since using your method would likely impact the "deploy" animation/deploy time and reload animation/reload time which is not the case. IAS doesn't get your first swing or bullet out any faster. The delay between when you right click and when you see the animation start/hear the gunshot doesn't change (outside of lag). Similarly, the reload period is exactly the same with IAS 0 and IAS Max. The only thing that's changed is the pause between one attack and when you can attack again which you would expect if they were using the "outdated" method I outlined.
I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong, but I don't think a general convention is grounds to rule out the method I described. ;)
@Stardrinker:
How did you "measure these personally" and get reliable info? Full attack cycles aren't long enough to measure accurately and if you're looking at overall numbers per minute and not an individual attack cycle your data is going to be heavily distorted by the "recharge" period which isn't effected by IAS. For guns it's reloading, but sword users have the same "pause" at the end of their combo which isn't changed by any increase to attack speed.
Looking at an individual attack cycle, well, the slowest weapons have cycles that complete in about 1 second. Trying to accurately tell the difference between 4% of a second and 5% of a second is somewhat unreliable.
If what you're saying is accurate then IAS 6 yields a 24% in the number of attacks per time period which means the attack cycle takes place in 80% the time of a normal cycle. If what I'm saying is accurate it takes place in 76% of the time of a normal cycle. If you record your cycle at 30 FPS then that 4% difference is a single frame. Not exactly easy to spot conclusively.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 13:47
#65
@Digital
I used the strike
@Digital
I used the strike needle in beta and just couldn't stand it. I tended to get myself killed more than anything. If it works for you, kudos, I have a friend who uses the fiery pepperbox and makes it work. It's just not something I would ever recommend to someone looking to pick up a gun. It takes the finesse required for the magnus line, cranks it up to 11, and removes my favorite benefits of using a gun. I consider the essence of gunslinging to be precision and the autogun series are anything but precise, even the needle line. ;)
@Paska
Ordinarily I recommend a well rounded gun like the Valiance or an Iron Slug if you're only carrying one gun since most people pull their gun out to deal with rocket puppies, _trodes, and mechaknights all of which are strong to piercing damage. If you only have one gun and it can't kill puppies, well, that's unfortunate. Especially as you get deeper, having a gun to shoot gun puppies in their stupid, death-belching faces is wonderful.
If you don't care about that and just want a gun to shoot fiends, beasts, undead, and gremlins, it's a great gun.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 13:49
#66
How did you "measure these
- How did you "measure these personally" and get reliable info? Full attack cycles aren't long enough to measure accurately and if you're looking at overall numbers per minute and not an individual attack cycle your data is going to be heavily distorted by the "recharge" period which isn't effected by IAS. For guns it's reloading, but sword users have the same "pause" at the end of their combo which isn't changed by any increase to attack speed.
Looking at an individual attack cycle, well, the slowest weapons have cycles that complete in about 1 second. Trying to accurately tell the difference between 4% of a second and 5% of a second is somewhat unreliable.
If what you're saying is accurate then IAS 6 yields a 24% in the number of attacks per time period which means the attack cycle takes place in 80% the time of a normal cycle. If what I'm saying is accurate it takes place in 76% of the time of a normal cycle.
IAS does affect the final swing delay for swords.
- If you record your cycle at 30 FPS then that 4% difference is a single frame. Not exactly easy to spot conclusively.
That's why I measured it over 60s and not on a per-frame basis.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 14:02
#67
Well Fossa, now this is
Well Fossa, now this is coming from someone with limited T3 experience, only a handful of runs and nothing beyond Basil, I do have an Avenger which does real well against gun puppies, are they that awful in T3 that I can't get close to them? And clearly the downside of the avenger is the low damage to gremlins and beasts, so from the sound of it Magnus to Callahan might be the way to go. Looks like I might have to think about it some more.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 14:04
#68
@Stardrinker
IAS changes the
@Stardrinker
IAS changes the refresh time between attack cycles for sword users?
Oh man, excuse me while I smack my guildie for misinforming me, grab my pitchfork and torch, and visit Three Ring to talk about IAS not impacting gun's reload time.
Alright, assuming what you're telling me is accurate I concede defeat, but maintain that capping IAS is still one of the best ways to handle armor/UV for gunslingers. Hitting the cap is less important than I previously indicated, but in the interest of not confusing the debate I won't go back and retcon my earlier posts.
Moving forward though, my thoughts on gun UVs:
Capping IAS is less important, so technically non-IAS UV's are viable. However, I still believe they are the best UV to pursue.
Yes, some people are saying that IAS is a bad UV since you can only benefit from 2 points of it on your gun(with Nameless Armor, which you are probably wearing). However, please keep in mind that for a damage UV you're only employing that bonus damage 1/2 to 1/6th of the time depending on whether you only use the gun on mobs weak to its type (2 per gun) or whether you use it indiscriminately either because it's your only (non-cursed) gun or to apply status conditions in dire situations.
This effectively caps the efficacy of those UVs between 1/2 and 1/6th of what the UV is actually worth. So that's a cap of 1-3 if you get a Maximum! damage UV which is exceedingly rare. To cap an IAS UV at 2 you only need an IAS of 2. ;)
CTR UV's are still kind of awful, which is why I'm selling a CTR UV Hail Driver after discovering this first hand. You still won't be charging in combat unless you're behind cover, at which point the charge time is pretty much irrelevant.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 14:12
#69
@Paska
They can be pretty
@Paska
They can be pretty horrible, yes. The basic ones shoot 5 shots in a wide/staggered spread, the fire ones shoot curving/bouncing fire trails, and the rockets turn on a dime. Engaging at anything other than max range when fighting more than 1 can be difficult and deadly. It's one of the main reasons non-gunners carry guns.
On T3 farming runs my bomb-buddy routinely AFKs when we come to the sections with 4+ gun puppies in the grassy stages.
Having a gun, but a gun that can't damage them, well, it wouldn't be my personal recommendation.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 14:22
#70
Say Fossa, how often does
Say Fossa, how often does Callahan's Charge Stun you and how long if it does?
Heck, is charge even an option for any gun?
And is soloing guns only practical and effective?
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 14:23
#71
Honestly I like the autoguns
Honestly I like the autoguns because of the spray aspect. Blanketing the area with shots helps weaken the group. I agree, the precision aspect is completely removed from the autoguns, but I think of playing gunner as a supportive role. Raw damage output (blanketing or targeted) helps a good deal. I personally feel the pepperbox is the better of the two since it can set enemies on fire (additional blanket damage), but since I haven't used a needle shot yet I don't know. If I didn't like my faust so much, I'd go with a pepperbox and possibly an iron slug.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 14:53
#72
@Kawaii_Desu
Pretty much the
@Kawaii_Desu
Pretty much the only time I charge attacks is before stepping on to a party button or before a party member opens a door/breaks a wall. The self-stun rate on the callahan is very low. I think I've stunned myself once in all the time I've been using it.
Yes, soloing with guns is effective, though slightly slower than with swords. The only enemies that will be a major headache are bats (Greavers). The trick there is learning to shield-repulse properly so that you knock them away just before the attack goes off (before they have time to dash back in). Shield repulsing early or late means you take the hit, so patience and precision is key.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 15:15
#73
@Fossa: I wasn't saying IAS
@Fossa: I wasn't saying IAS was a bad UV. I was only pointing out that you have a low IAS ceiling for weapon UV if you are wearing Nameless, which I think a lot of gunners are going to for T3. I personally think damage type UVs are probably the best for guns, if not most weapons (barring a few cases where the charge is more useful than general weapon use).
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 15:32
#74
@Wallach: Damage also has a
@Wallach:
Damage also has a functionally low ceiling since it only applies to a single enemy class which is 1/6th of the enemies you'll face. Even if you only use it on the enemies weak to its particular type, that's still two enemy classes only one of which is weak to its UV bonus.
In a best case scenario you're getting half the value which means that unless you get a UV of Ultra or Maximum you aren't better off than having an IAS UV where you only need Medium to hit the cap.
This stops being true if you build six guns, one for each enemy class, and get a UV of High or better on each of them (for the proper enemy type, mind you), and alter your loadout according to the stratum you're facing, and don't have to face stratum that have more enemy types than you have open weapon slots, but that's impossible much of the time, and extremely costly even when it is possible.
Heck, even if you're only focused on endgame, Vanaduke has four enemy classes (Undead, Fiend, Slime, Construct).
So, to get an effective UV of 2 with DB you need to get an actual UV of 4 or higher (and then only use the gun on the enemies that are weak to it) or jump through seriously expensive hoops. On the other hand, to get an effective UV of 2 with IAS you need a UV of 2.
IAS also lets you apply status effects like shock, fire, freeze, stun, and knock-down* more often.
So yeah, I'll stick with my IAS and continue recommending IAS as the preferred UV for guns.
*Not an actual status effect, but still worth applying.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 15:35
#75
That's fair enough. I wasn't
That's fair enough. I wasn't saying "you're wrong" or anything. I just think the bonus itself is more powerful is all when combined with rank 4 IAS from Nameless. I do keep multiple UVs for different enemy types and stratums for this very purpose.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 08:00
#76
@FossaTo start off, I just
@Fossa
To start off, I just wanted to mention that this thread alone has convinced me to become a gunner – more so for the strategic play type than anything else, so thank you Fossa and all the other gunners, for your expertise. I do have a couple of questions regarding your assessments of UV DMG Type vs UV IAS. You touched upon the caps for both of these and mentioned the pros and cons. The question I have is with the way you assessed them, which was based on pure 'value' and not true DPS (i.e. a full cup of water is not equivalent to a full pool of water). A cap of IAS is not equivalent to a cap of Dmg type. I don't even think it's close to dmg type high.
Equipping your Callahan with a Fiend UV of let's say High. You're getting 4 points of IAS from the Nameless set. Since IAS is fixed across both configurations, what you're really comparing yourself to is a UV Fiend 3 vs UV IAS 2. To me, it seems to me (and someone that has run the tests may clarify) that the dmg you will be doing against Fiends over and above an IAS 2 on Fiends far exceeds the benefit you would be receiving from IAS 2 on a Beast above the Callahan UV Fiend. This is assuming that both Fiends and Beasts show up equally and are both an equal hassle to deal with in terms of threat (to me I would think Fiends are more threatening). What are your thoughts? It’s situational and of one’s own preferences but from what I understand, you’re trying to ‘maximize’ your efficiency and this would seem to increase it further than the IAS.
Also when you compared the Blitz/Argent to the Callahan, you mentioned you compared DPS which at first was why I was convinced the Mag line was better. While i'm not unconvinced, I did want to clarify your support since you also mentioned that you've never tested a Peacemaker or the Blitz. The only calculation I saw was across 6 shots and we all know that 6 shots on the Callahan comes out slower than the other two. Maybe I read it wrong or maybe it was mentioned, but within a 60s frame, you'd be getting two to three times more bullets out than you would with a Callahan. Unless those bullets are half/one third the strength of a Callahan, wouldn't the DPS from a Blitz be higher? I understand my question does not include 'range' and other idiosyncrasies like 'no movement while shooting', 'recoil', 'scope', ‘stun’ and the like...maybe they outweigh the actual DPS on the guns. I’d be curious to see a test between all three of these in a 60s time trial all other things equal.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 09:25
#77
For Glory and Gunnery
FossaFerox,
After playing through Tier 1, and a couple forays into Tier 2 (all solo), I've decided that gunslinging suits my playstyle. I end up using my 1* Super Stun Gun more than my Calibur in Tier 2, and know I should be looking to acquire a new gun and fulfill my gunslinging destiny.
What would you suggest acquiring to start my 'slinging career: the easily acquired Blaster, a Cryotech Alchemer (en route to a Hail Driver), or stock up materials for a Magnus?
Additionally, I've been having a hell of a time with dodgy enemies, namely gremlins and wolver. Is there an easy way to handle them without forcing them to dodge into a corner and then blitzing them with a sword (I know, not true gunslinging...)?
Thanks,
Kadrec
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 10:41
#78
@verus I like your assessment
@verus
I like your assessment of the IAS 2 vs. IAD vs type. It is certainly a reasonable assumption, and with testing you could confirm it. But if I'm not mistaken the swiftstrike buckler works on guns as well, and as a gunner you shouldn't be hit much at all, so in all honesty you could use that to round out the IAS value of your character and be done with it. >)
@Kadrec
While not a gunslinger, I do have some recommendations. The blaster while easy to acquire is a rather solid "generic" weapon. You can't really go wrong with one, but you can certainly do better. I recommend focusing on the cryotech, and/or the voltech alchemer (try both, you might find you like one over the other) for a start. If you're having problems fighting dodgy enemies, the magnus will certainly help with its fast travel times (alchemers are actually slower than blasters. Another option is to move closer; dodgy enemies dodge less or are easier to hit if you're close up, and will stand still at point blank range (though at that point, why no sword?). Beyond that it's a matter of knowing which way they're going and shooting at them before they get there. Dodging enemies can be hurt while they dodge, but not the moment they dodge. Autoguns, ironically, do very well for this reason I've found.
To be honest, I'd recommend trying all the gun types until you figure out what you like. The antigua will take a while to get so focus on the others, but that still leaves you with the alchemers, blaster, magnus, and autogun.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 11:33
#79
@Feynt
You raise a good point
@Feynt
You raise a good point and wish I could do some testing, but seeing as how I just started a couple days ago, it's still quite a ways before I can conduct any true testing beyond normal hypotheses. I have to say I agree with you on the buckler, my only fear is on close confined spaces that can get chaotic (i.e. Vanaduke)...but since that in itself is situational, I may have to run 2 shields with the swiftstrike being my primary. Thanks.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 12:58
#80
@Versus: That is basically
@Versus: That is basically how my experience/testing has played out. I find it far more effective to run v.high damage mods on guns right now. The only exception to this is the Antigua line, because of the split damage types. I use IAS High for my Silversix, though I find few reasons to carry either one anymore.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 14:13
#81
Hey, great thread you have
Hey, great thread you have here.
Anyway, I got myself an Autogun (Much better than my Stun Gun, which I used for a lot of tier 2) and I was wondering:
Do I follow the Pepperbox or Needle alchemy path?
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 14:28
#82
The pepperbox will work on
The pepperbox will work on everything uniformly, and will set enemies which can be set on fire, on fire. The needle shot line will do more damage apparently, and has a much longer reach, but as a piercing weapon it's useless against certain enemies.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 14:38
#83
I'm more of a all-around type
I'm more of a all-around type of guy then a elemental damage guy, so needle alchemy path it is.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 14:45
#84
personal choice for T2
@Kadrec: Personally, I find Blaster very useful (at least on T2) - it's good when you're shooting larger enemies through narrow hole in the blocks wall - alchemers usually destroys nearby blocks (because of ricochets) and let those giants lichens out :-) Rebounding bolts from alchemers work magic when faceing crowd but they may as well destroy blocks that you would rather keep undestroyed. Blaster is much more predictable. I'd advice to give it a try - even if you're going to replace it with something more fancy one day.
Also I value Voltech Alchemer above Cryotech Alchemer because I find schock status more suitable to my game style.
And for the dodgers I'd suggest Magnus - Magnus is great solution on T2, especially against wolvers. It knocks them down and prevent from dodging. I can't wait to upgrade it to Mega Magnus but I'm always finding recipe only when I'm totally broke :-D
EDIT:
@Endgame: Actually Pepperbox is much more all-around type of autogun as it deals normal, not elemental damage. Needle Shot deals only Piercing damage so it is not so all-around type of autogun. It is of no use against jellies and constructs for example.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 14:50
#85
...
God how did I not realize
...
God how did I not realize that, thanks merethif.
Pepperbox it is then.
Thu, 04/28/2011 - 15:18
#86
SSR vs SPSP and shielding
Fossa, you advocate shot-shot-reload firing over shot-pause-shot-pause, saying it's dramatically faster overall with max attack speed increase. I often find SPSP preferable not for overall rate of fire, but shield response. With SSR, you cannot shield until after the reload is complete, whereas you can shield immediately after any shot in a SP cycle. So it seems to me that which is preferable depends on the situation, with SPSP being preferable for instance when firing between hard to avoid gunpuppy volleys. Do you find this not to be an issue with SSR at max speed?
Thu, 04/28/2011 - 15:45
#87
Callahan question.
Can you move while shooting the Callahan?
Thu, 04/28/2011 - 16:09
#88
Can you move while shooting
Can you move while shooting the Callahan?
No.
Thu, 04/28/2011 - 17:02
#89
Hi all,
I originally only
Hi all,
I originally only intended to field questions for a day, and never imagined the thread would continue on this long. Now that my boss is NOT in HR training things have been hectic in and out of work.
Some very quick responses.
@Trouser: Yes, SPSP can be very important when shielding is necessary if you aren't timing your attack cycles to line up with theirs. Trodes with staggered attack are probably when it's most necessary, for gun puppies, even in groups and even in tier 3 you should be able to avoid most of their attacks and only have to shield when multiple ones are firing in a synchronized manner. In that case, SSR is usually better since SPSP you'll typically get two shots per puppy attack cycle while with SSR you can get three (though it ends up being SSRSP where you shield on P).
@feynt?: Think it was you who asked for clarification (two minutes till I leave the office). I haven't used the blitz or peacemaker personally. I did a dps comparison with another person who was using a peacemaker and my comparison for the blitz came from first hand experience in beta where I had a mega magnus and strike needle. Never took it to 5*, but it shouldn't change much since 5* gear is still soft-capped at depth 28. My problem with the blitz isn't even its damage per say, more the style. I dislike being immobile that long and I dislike the spread.
@verus and others?:
Swiftstrike is a bad idea. Yes, as a gunner you are removed from combat a lot more than our hack/slash/boom brethren. However, there are times where damage is all but unavoidable. Greavers, trodes, rocket puppies, and other hazards... capping yourself with a 3* shield is a terrible idea in my book.
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 08:02
#90
hi 8D
i'm a blackhawk user, and i think i'm going to follow a awkward gunner lifestyle, but until now i'm still in the tier 2( only once i got the 3 depth of the tier 3), so i want a second opinion about my "strategy" :p
the reason why i made this "strategy" is because i'm too lazy to keep changing weapons that i barely change to another weapon besides my blackhawk(i do prefer to shoot a little more than having to use other weapon)
my "strategy": i plan to switch weapons the minimum possible with a sentenza, a callahan(against devilites and greavers) and a Dread Venom Striker(only to kill royal jellys and tall grass XD)
damage chart of the blackhawk/sentenza against the monsters is:
Slime Family: neutral damage
Beast Family: high* damage
Gremlin Family: high* damage
Construct Family: low** damage
Fiend Family: neutral damage
Undead Family: low** damage
*150% of damage than the normal damage,considering that the "weak to" from the wiki means that the monster will take double damage(or 125%, considering that the "weak to" from the wiki means that the monster will take 50% more damage)
**75% of damage than the normal damage,considering that the "Strongly Resistant To" from the wiki means that the monster will take 50% less damage
since i can easily dodge/block the monsters attacks of the construct and undead family with a SSSSP lifestyle, and slime monsters are too easy to fight against, i plan to simply shot them a little more
but i really get upset with devilites and greavers, so i plan to use a callahan with a damage bonus vs fiend UV to fight aganst then(since with 2-shot guns i only play with SPSP style =x)
what i want to know is: is it a bad thing to do? may i continue with this or should I change my whole playing style? :(
since i started to read this topic i got this doubt, but i really don't like to use 2-shots guns =x
EDIT: i was wondering if a damage bonus vs contruct UV would be better than an IAS UV for the sentenza, since:
1- it already have a good AS
2- I'm going to use a nameless set for IAS
3- to help sword users in the party - they seems to have some difficulty against construct family monsters
4- this way, it weakness would only be against undead family(but it is so easy to fight against them that I hardly consider it a weakness) and fiendy family(since they're very hard to hit with many consecutive shots), making it almost an "all terrain" gun(and the callahan would cover such weakness) that perfectly fit my playing style
i'm sorry, my english is not very good ^^"
Thu, 04/28/2011 - 17:22
#91
What is the best
What is the best recommendation for 1 star and 2 star guns, for someone that will have a sword as well? (I.e.: a single all purpose gun)?
Do 1 star guns upgrade, or do I need to get a brand new base at 2 star?
Thu, 04/28/2011 - 17:22
#92
What is the best
What is the best recommendation for 1 star and 2 star guns, for someone that will have a sword as well? (I.e.: a single all purpose gun)?
Do 1 star guns upgrade, or do I need to get a brand new base at 2 star?
Thu, 04/28/2011 - 17:53
#93
1 star guns do not upgrade to
1 star guns do not upgrade to end game variants at the present. You're better off going with a 2 star weapon such as an alchemer or blaster. Basically the autogun is not a great compliment to a sword, because the focus of the autogun is to do damage (either to a single target or multiple), and that's what swords do. I'd say make the gun you choose match the sword's fail points. At the very least, a blaster so you can hit those switches over on the other side of the wall out of reach of your slashing.
Thu, 04/28/2011 - 19:35
#94
I find it interesting that
I find it interesting that you favor SSR over SPSP (as this thread has suitably labeled the styles), but I can see why that would be beneficial on two-shot weapons with short reloads and excessive IAS stacked on top. I do feel, though, that I should ask if you at least favor SPSP for Antigua- and Blaster-line firearms when IAS is also taken into account, or if you believe SSR is better for them as well.
The more I play this game as a Sword/Gun user, the more I feel like guns really only excel at mobility. I picked up a Magnus to test it out since you are quite fond of the Callahan, but my Tempured Calibur still outdamages it by a very considerable spread even when fighting Pierce-vulnerable target. In a way, I'm impressed that you went the gunslinger-only route when Swords have such a huge advantage in this game. Hell, even Bombs (Vaporizers, at least) have the edge over Alchemers for status effect application and AoE damage.
-
Using this train of thought, I'd like to ask if you feel that non-gunslingers should still likewise be prioritizing damage typing on their guns (as you do) over status application or mobility/versatility. Anyone with a Sword will be using that for the brunt of their damage, so aiming for raw damage doesn't quite seem right when you're mainly using it for Gun Puppies, separating healers and other miscellaneous unsafe scenarios.
I have a feeling you will nevertheless recommend the Cryotech Alchemer even for Sword users due to the Freeze (useful in both of the above scenarios, despite Gremlin family's resistance), but I would appreciate any amount of elaboration you could provide when considering non-gunslingers being restricted in their gun choices while simultaneously having the advantages of damage outweighed by their non-firearm equipment's force.
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Forgive me if any of this has already been asked. The thread has become quite long-in-the-tooth, so I haven't taken the time to absorb it all.
Sat, 04/30/2011 - 04:15
#95
Best general use 5* gun?
Awesome thread.
My son is using spiral knights as his first social gaming experience, and I've had a lot of fun playing it too. Both of us are sword heavy fighters, (we share the same toon) but I want to get the best 5* gun I can.. won't be used much, but I want to make sure that when he needs it that it's top notch. If it looks cool that's a bonus. (he's six, looks are important to him. Dad is a recovered MMO junkie and is more concerned about the end results)
I was looking at the Iron Slug, is there anything that's better?
Sat, 04/30/2011 - 05:48
#96
If it was me, I'd use either
If it was me, I'd use either a Voltech or Cryotech Alchemer because the only things I've ever felt would be better handled with a gun were Gun Puppies, Retrodes and sometimes Zombies, all of which are weak to elemental.
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 01:34
#97
Fossa, what is your IGN? I am
Fossa, what is your IGN? I am sorry if you've already written it but I coulnd't find it. I really need a few pieces of advice and some Items and your prices seem fair.
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 08:09
#98
@sl0shie:
Well nothing makes
@sl0shie:
Well nothing makes you feel like a man the way a big gun does, and the Iron Slug certainly fits that bill. >D
It's big, it's strong, and it looks impressive.
Autoguns are also pretty neat, all little kids like rapid fire weapons. Needle shots might be best since it's rapid fire and pretty high power.
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 09:59
#99
@Agys:
IGN:
@Agys:
IGN: Fossa
@Stardrinker:
Solid thinking. The enemies that are strong to elemental are also some of the best enemies to hit in the face with a sword if you go for that kind of thing.
@sl0shie
Iron Slug is a very solid weapon, but it's a bit slow which may or may not sit well with his playstyle. If he's looking for a single gun to complement his sword possible choices include the two normal damage weapons (Iron Slug or Valiance), an elemental alchemer (Hail Driver is my personal favorite) which will do well against the things most people rely on guns for, or an Argent Peacemaker which is fast, has solid range, and is rather well rounded. The split damage model means that he'll never hit as hard as he could with a pure damage weapon, but he'll also never run into a scenario where he is completely ineffective either.
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 11:06
#100
Fossa, advice please?
Hey fossa, a noob like me defiantly appreciates this advice, are the prismatech alchemisers any good? I guy came up to me and offered me one but I wasn't sure if he was trying to scam me, he claimed that they did extra damage to mechs and undead, do they?
peace and love
Sparkster
@Gulian:
It isn't "better". They're fairly balanced, one is just lots of low damage shots and one is fewer, high damage shots. Which you like is a matter of taste.
@DoctorBear:
I would highly recommend going for pure damage guns rather than the blaster and blackhawk. Shadowtech, elemental alchemer of your choice, and Magnus are the bread and butter of being a pure gunslinger in my book.
@Shinko:
Absolutely. I have the majority of gun related recipes at this point, including many I have no intention of ever crafting for myself. Anything 1-3* is free with your mats, though tips do make me smile.
For 4* stuff I charge a flat 5k (on top of mats) to cover the energy I spend leveling it. 5* stuff I charge more since it's a royal pain to level a 4* to level 10, especially with my new UV armor sucking up heat since it isn't quite capped yet.
See my full list in the bazaar section here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/3046
@Fenix:
Sword users don't have the same flexibility since they have no pure damage weapons and no way to deal piercing damage at all, but yes, my tri-sword friend (G.Faust, D.Avenger, D.V.Striker) pulls out his Faust when mobs are weak to shadow and his DA when they're weak to Elemental. This is with his gains being significantly reduced by the split damage model (half his damage with each sword is "normal" and thus unmodified).
@Stardrinker
Yes, it's a flat % of the ORIGINAL attack delay. As you continue to take this percentage off, the difference becomes effectively larger with each step since its a percent of the original delay taken off of the new, lower delay.
Taking 4% of the unmodified attack delay off of a heavily modified attack delay is considerably more than taking off 4% of the modified attack delay because the modified attack delay is, by definition, lower than the unmodified attack delay. Lets say hypothetically it were an even 4% reduction in attack delay per level and let's say there were a gun that had an attack delay of 1 second.
Each level of IAS would take 0.04 seconds off of the attack delay.
Going from no IAS to low would go from 1 second to 0.96 seconds which is a 4% improvement.
Going from IAS low to medium would go from 0.96 to 0.92, another 0.04 step (static percent of the unmodified attack delay).
Continuing on: High(0.88), Very High (0.84), Ultra (0.8), and finally Maximum (0.76). To get to instant shots would require 25 levels of IAS (which is of course impossible) but it would not require infinite IAS.
Now what matters isn't that you're getting 0.04 seconds off of the attack delay with each step. What matters is that this change in attack delay becomes larger on a percentage basis as you go deeper into IAS since you're taking the same 0.04 seconds off a new, lower, modified attack delay.
That last step you're taking 0.04 off of 0.8 which is a 5% increase in effective damage for that last step alone. That's 25% better than the original 4% which isn't much, but it is better. Moreover, the magnitude of the effective gain increases with a larger initial percent.
If each level of IAS were 6%, for example, you go from 6% gain going from 0-1 but an 8.6% gain going from 5-6. This is a 43% improvement in DPS/IAS as compared to the 25% gained with a 4% IAS reduction. If IAS were 10% the gain is from 10% at the first step to 20% at the last step making it a 100% improvement.
The actual number for guns is higher than 4% (though certainly lower than 10). I pegged it at about 6% last time I tested, but my sample size wasn't large enough to give me total confidence in my measurement since it's inherently difficult to measure.
@DigitalGabeg:
I'm honored, but a word of caution. Remember that IAS gets better the more you have. If you aren't serious about guns (and thus aren't wearing nameless armor) that UV may not be the best one for you. If it's your only gun, you may consider chasing a UV for damage vs the enemies you normally find yourself engaging from range (usually fiend or construct depending on your playstyle).
On the other hand, maybe you are serious about guns and plan on wearing Nameless. In that case, please remember that a normal damage gun isn't as good as a specialty one unless you already have those covered and this is a 4th weapon to round out your kit. If you plan on going Tri-gun or dual-gun with no third slot, you'd be better off turning that into a Callahan and taking an Elemental Alchemer of your choice (and a shadowtech if you're doing tri-gun).
Just something to think about. If you do decide to chase a different UV, let me know. I'll gladly buy that one off you, but please know that my advice here is honest. I'm not trying to talk you into selling it for selfish reasons. ;)