"This whole thread could have been avoided if they just made the patch notes more concise."

I'm not even sure what the downside of telling us straight that "IMF now pays out roughly 2600 to 2800 crowns" would be? Somebody's going to do it and report back anyways (like a couple of people here did).

Is it to preserve "the surprise"....I hardly see how that would apply. The only thing I can think of is they don't want an official public record of the exact details for some reason. That or they're just being sloppy with the patch report writing.

And we could just play the game instead of grinding King of Ashes over and over and gather that info as a mmo community.

They too, have a history of secrecy. see every xmas and bday circa 1980-Now. Shady people, if you ask me.

all kidding aside
p.s. I do think, and have loudly said, that OOO has done some super shady things. But its not the secrecy that is shady, its the intent of what they are implementing. (lockboxes, shadow keys, rare accessories, recipes, supply depot, uv locking, etc...)

That quote from the GM in the first link was about content NOT YET released, not secret updates that can be changed later in secrecy.

Quote to prove my point:

-"There are some things being worked on-but in order to preserve the "surprise", even GMs don't know ahead of time. I can understand how frustrating it can be not knowing, but on the other hand, there are other things to keep in mind. How frustrating would it be to hear that we did have something planned-and then have it delayed longer than you anticipated? Or that it turned out it simply wasn't possible to do and the idea had to be scrapped altogether after you've been looking forward to it for weeks or months? "

There are things they work on and test THEMSELVES before it's ever released in game. That isn't being sneaky or blah blah blah. That's them making sure they can do something before it is released or even talked about in the forums.

Here are two scenarios and you can tell me which one you like the best.

Scenario one:

You make a lovely suggestion about some content that you would like to see in game. A developer comes in and before ever even trying it out and testing it to see if it can be done shoots your suggestion down. He feels the need to shoot it down because he doesn't know if it can be done, isn't wlling to try it out, and afraid it would get everyone's hopes up about it being released. He doesn't want to work in secrecy because there were complaints. So, to make things easier he says... sorry no, can't be done.

Scenario two:

You make the same lovely suggestion about new content above. You don't hear anything about it except a few months later they make an announcement saying there will be new a content release. It's released... and they added in something that was suggested (something YOU suggested) and it's fun and you enjoy it. But you didn't hear from them and they worked in silence, or rather SECRECY is what you guys like to call it.

Which one you would prefer? I know I would prefer the second. As frustrating as it is not hearing a thing from them sometimes... it sure is nice to know your suggestions are being taken seriously and tried out... maybe even accomplished.

Now, your second link. Was not some secrecy thing. People DID see it. It was commented on. They weren't trying to hide it. Nick mentioned that it was a mistake and he apologized. What more do you want? Do you want him to grovel at your feet begging for forgivness and mercy after he magics up some divine wings and the ultimate pvp gear for you? NO. He made an honest mistake. Don't YOU make mistakes? How is it that suddenly your mistakes are above his? No, they aren't. Three Rings does the best they can with the amount of people they have. Maybe at some point they will consider expanding. Who knows. But right now, this is what they work with. I think they do a pretty bangin job.

I'm sorry you don't see that. I'm sorry you're so closed minded and only focused on yourself you can't see the bigger picture. I'm terribly sorry about that. Now, stop accusing them of things they aren't guilty of.

Edit:

Btw. I have not, and ever, said it was stupid. Or that anyone's suggestion was stupid. So, don't even go there with me. Take it up with others who are just making fun of your posts and not responding whatsoever.

O.O

"You've convinced me....secrecy is not shady. Hey you know what? My financial agent hasn't sent me any detailed reports of my fiances in some time. Oh well, I'm sure as a licensed agent he has no intent in screwing me....so why be suspicious and expect any transparency? If I ask for detailed reports, he might get offended that I don't trust him and I might come off as ungrateful for his work.....I wouldn't want that would I?"

YOU MUST BE A PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE!!!! lol. get it XD

"YOU MUST BE A PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE!!!"

I'm starting to feel like I'm the guy completing in the Special Olympics.....even if I win I'm still a.....you know how it goes.

I concede, everybody's right! Now go play some Spiral Knights, it's free elevators for another day and half. Thank the OOO overlords!

You know....I don't even know if I should bother responding....it's like you got the answers but they're jumboed up in the wrong order to fit whatever you want it to fit.

"Clearly, if I'm typing something it's my opinion so saying... I THINK before I say something is just redundant to me."

People are capable of expressing themselves in more ways than just opinion. Your above quote says everything you say is opinion....but then your next paragraph you bring up "Suggestion", "Accusing", "Speculation", "Discussion"....all other ways of expression that can be independent of opinion. There's plenty of other forms of expression devoid of opinion too...asking a question, expressing what your feeling is, stating facts, etc.

So if you're going to state your opinion, state it as a opinion and not fact.

The other stuff in your post.....ugh....I don't want to pick through it in detail especially since you don't get the above or seemingly the other things.

Nick's post....there was more than just the change of Energy/Money for the DLC going on. After me explaining all the nuances of it, you still just seeing it as an innocent isolated mistake not well handled is mind-boggling. Like that situation and it's nuances was no big deal, one time, and doesn't relate to anything else that OOO has or ever has done since or ever will do.

"He openly admitted to it. What more do you guys want from them?"

What?! Like seriously?! Are you even paying attention!? I want them to be more open with their communication! And he didn't admit how he handled the situation was poor nor how he shouldn't have edited an official time stamped announcement directly or the other nuances of it. And NO I'm not looking for him to beg forgiveness.....I WANT OPEN COMMUNICATION! Do you understand?! I'm not sure how I can make it anymore clearer than that.

"They achdmitted to it and apologized. There isn't much they can do outside of that."

Huh.....where did they apologize? If they did I missed that. This is all what Nick wrote:

"Expansion Missions are unlocked with purchase. The preview you quoted is out of date and I have edited it to reflect the more recent patch notes: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/44421"

I don't see an apology anywhere in that. You know, it was just my opinion that you were blindly protecting OOO....but now I'm suspecting it's fact if you're making these kinds of mistakes of assumption. ie. You just want to see them in good light, so construe anything to do so even if it's not based on reality.

Three Rings Entertainment: "We were acquired by SEGA in November 2011"

Lots of "Super Shady Things" going on in SK before Nov 2011. Yeah....it's somebody else's doing, it's nothing, or lets forget it ever happened or the possibility of re-occurrence.

----

Let me ask you this:

I've listened to your arguments & counter-arguments, I've considered them, and I've responded with my counter-arguments. You call me "closed minded" directly....and probably other stuff directly or indirectly. So what would it take for you to consider me "open minded" without agreeing with you or changing my position, value judgement, logic, etc.?

"Try, re-reading my posts. You'll find that I'm agreeing with you a lot more than what you're taking out of my posts."

I find this last post of yours most reasonable of your posts in this thread, and not just because we're more in agreement. However I feel you've avoided to comment on much of the points I've raised which I think you're in error of....but whatever.

If I had not commented on certain parts of your posts, I either have no issues with them or had more issues with the sections I did comment on. If you've convinced me I'm wrong or have valid points in your counter-arguments, I would admit it.

I feel we both do want the same thing in the end, which is to make the game generally better than what it is. We just disagree on the nitty-gritty details of getting there or how to get there or where there really is. Meanwhile OOO's figuring out the same thing, although their ideas of what's better, how to get there, and where there is could be drastically different than ours....we'll never know for sure, we can only make educated guesses.

"I do NOT agree with the manner in which these posts are being made. Accusing three rings of super secrecy like they're here to screw us over."

I have accused OOO of secrecy, because....well they have been using secrecy. Although I've only made speculations they've been doing so to our detriment or their advantage. I don't think I've made the accusation as fact unless I've pointed out my reasons for such.

Given in my last post I felt the need to explain the differences in expression of opinion, accusation, statement of fact, etc. and you didn't comment on it....is this where some of the confusion lie? You think I'm saying I have undeniable proof OOO's out to screw us without such? Or perhaps you think somebody else said that? Not to be a dick, but could it be you only thought somebody said that when nobody did?.....kind of like you thinking Nick's apologized about the DLC when I still can't find such.

I don't know, maybe somebody did in fact make a claim against OOO without proof. But in that case I would think it's best to take issue with the claim and not the person. Tell them how their claim is wrong and back up your statements with facts. If the poster is the dick but his points are not the problem (even if you disagree with the points), then I say take issue with the poster and not the points he's making. Confusing a problem with the argument to a problem with the poster, and vice-versa, is not a very good practice when it comes to discussing things rationally and reasonably.

"I have made a thread myself disagreeing with the pocket pets and saying they have better things to work on than pocket pets."

I kind of like the pocket pets, they're cute. Don't get me wrong, they're an useless accessory which was grossly overpriced, and they were not what the players had in mind when asking for pets....but they're cute. I agree there are much much more important things the game is badly needing before pocket pets. I have my suspicions why they did what they did....but again, they're just speculations not necessarily fact at this point.

"Some things are such a minor change that I really don't care about reading it in the Release update announcements. People are accusing them of super secrecy if even the smallest of detail is not in the announcement.

Details are what eases some people's fears, makes them feel more secure, promotes trust, and gives the appearance of honesty and open communication. Expecting the smallest detail to be documented might be a little overboard, but I think some could agree we're far far from that right now with OOO's approach to openness.

Implementing more detail in documentation isn't that hard nor is it a trade off to work being done on the game when using the right solution to the problem. If they have a PR or Marketing person at OOO do it, I don't see how it would reducing programming time and isn't that what the person's job should be in the first place? If they paid the programmer for an extra hour to do documentation, it would not impact programming. If the programmer is overworked as it is, have documentation split up amongst the programmers and compensate them. If that doesn't work, hire more programmers/PR/Marketing (or replace them if they're incompetent at their jobs). Or get some free volunteers or interns and have them do it.....or make them to pay OOO to do it, like the test servers.

Many good ideas.....so why not try them. Also I don't know why people think more documentation = less programming time. I think this was a made up excuse to defend OOO for not doing so, show me the proof behind this. You could easily say "When I see Nick in Haven walking around, less time is being devoted to programming".

I will openly admit right now I didn't get a good read on that post, I'm exhausted right now. I will comment on a couple of things, if in the morning my brain decides to wake up and read that monster of a post and change the opinion I'll change it.

I didn't comment on the opinon, fact, and whatever else you said because it wasn't relevant to the subject at hand. I tend to get defensive when I feel like I'm being treated like I'm uneducated. I am educated and I do know what those things are and how to prove them and what not. I don't need someone telling me how to do it. It is NOT relevant whatsoever to this topic.

I also tend to think when someone admits to something being changed, different, a mistake, or whatever such as nick coming in and saying that it was changed...as an apology. I feel that if it was something they intentionally done no one would have came in and said anything and just let everyone speculate. As he did not let people speculate he came in and admitted there was a change. I took it as a sort of apology. I am a bit weird like that and not everyone is the way I am or understand how I think.

Btw. I think the pocket pets are hideous. I have yet a to see a fellow female player that likes them. I've found that a lot of guys like them. I hate them. It's so masculine looking.

Details aren't important to me, and I don't take a negative outlook on it if they aren't there.

Also, I think you liked this last post much better because I skipped all the mumbo jumbo and went right to the point of my posts. I, too, get lost in the small things and miss the big picture. Sometimes if we're too busy nitpicking things then we can't see what is really there.

I like the profit I made off of mine. I do think that they're cute, they just completely throw off my costume. I've only seen one or two costumes with them that really worked, too.

The relevance of being able to distinguish between the expressions is being able not to misunderstand what the poster is saying, and not misrepresenting what you're trying to say. Misunderstanding leads to poor communication which leads to problems....kind of like the misunderstandings the players are having with OOO.

Nick's "Apology"....all Nick had to say was "I'm sorry for the change/misunderstanding/announcement was old/etc" and then it would have been an apology. The fact that he decided not to even use the words "I'm sorry", which is pretty standard when admitting mistakes, or to even state any wrongdoing shows his insincerity to me. You may be too or more lenient than me.

Pocket Pets hideous? What do you think of the Snipe on the Stranger Hat? Personally I prefer the Pocket Pets, that snipe's going to give me a neck cramp even if it's cute....get off my head snipe!

We have to "Nitpick" to try and figure things out, OOO's not giving us any of the answers by not being more open with their communication. They don't even really want to admit problems, mistakes, wrongdoing. You may think they do, but like Nick's "Apology", if you look carefully at the words they use....they don't.

Edit: Oh man I wish the pets ran around and did stuff....if not fighting, at least picking up coins and heat for me so I don't have to walk over there. You must really hate those imprisoned knights and the Mecha-Knights then, LOL.

@Serell

The pocket pets are going to come back at some point. The poachers....er adoption agency person said there will be more in the future. Start saving your Crowns now, LOL!