Spiral Knights - A rant, and a petition to fix the Arcade

A rant, and a petition to fix the Arcade

22 replies [Last post]

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 10:35

Soarel

Enemy approaching--Wall o' Text-Class. Red leader standing by.

Mods--Don't move to suggestions, this does have some suggestions but is also a rant/petiton.

We've already seen a decline in players, with many old players leaving. We've seen an increase in CE prices. We've seen a huge number of lazy promos intended to motive people to buy CE--but what is causing this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games

The article I just linked to is a text by a theologian, describing life as a type of game. Either it can be finite (played to win, or reach an ending goal) or infinite (played for the sake of play, to entertain and to bring more players into the game).

SK is intended as an infinite game. So then why are old players leaving? Why aren't people buying CE? What's going on here?

The issue lies at the former core of gameplay--The Arcade.

Recently I watched the promo video again. To compare, I made an alt character and played up to the T2 level. Then, I played the actual, T3 game, as it is now. I noticed a huge difference in gameplay that people tend to overlook--the game becomes less of a game as you continue.

When you join, the game is new and interesting. There are challenges to face and places to explore. When you progress into midgame (T2) the world is pretty well known, but the challenge remains. When you first reach T3, the challenge reaches its peak.

But this is where things go downhill.

When you first defeat Vanaduke in the KoA mission, you have effectively beaten the game. After that, the challenge disappears from what was once the heart of gameplay (arcade) and it seems monotonous and boring. You may try new weapons to change your play style, but does that fix the challenge? No.

The game, at its T3 level, is effectively Hello Kitty Island Adventures. Now I'm definitely not the first to refer to the game as such, but I think that it really deserves meaning here.

Now we have Danger Missions, and the upcoming Guildhall update. But with the danger missions especially, something is wrong. Very wrong.

The danger mission, in essence, is a pregenerated- same-old-thing type level that rotates every day. However, this isn't what was intended--after a while, the danger missions aren't that mysterious world that changes every day. The difficulty in the danger missions, the only good part about them, is relegated to them and the Shadow Lairs only, when it should be in the Arcade.

(Don't get me started on Shadow Lairs, that's another rant entirely)

The Arcade--specifically T3--needs the difficulty that Danger Missions offer. It needs that thrill of survival, with its own unique changing world mixed in. It needs to return to what it once was. It needs to be hard again.

But how?

First things first. We have to reverse the nerfs made to Wolvers, Zombies, Kats, Lumbers, and Retrodes. These nerfs greatly reduced the fun of the T3 Arcade.

Second, we need to buff the monsters that weren't much of a challenge anyway--namely Chromalisks, Jellies, Gremlins, and Trojans. These poor guys need Devilite-type difficulty. When was the last time you ever dropped dead, all 4 of the party members, in the Arcade? Chances are, it was a Devilite level.

Third, crowns need to drop in bigger quantities from certain monsters--That is Wolvers, Gremlins, Trojans, and Constructs.

Finally, we need a new level type in the Arcade. Adding a new level every 6 months or so would make new challenges to explore. Of course we would keep the Danger Missions, because of the prestige and the unique enemy mixing.

Please, OOO, do something about this. I'm sure that it would fix a lot of issues. More engaged players = more purchases for CE = more money for OOO/SEGA.

Sincerely, Soarel Fyrex von de Krone-Schtauffen.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 10:58

Little-Juances

Making it harder right on will create a huge gap for those who got used to it against those that have just reached T3.
You cant just throw everything right on. We need a barrier to separate harder content away from the regular game, and missions do just that.

Or lets create a fake makeshift 'T4' with it.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 12:03

Canine-Vladmir

i am actually very neutral with this.
most of my CR income comes from recipe Runs mostly because 90% of players are too lazy to go down there and get it themselves. (about +50Kcrowns profit plus anything else i do )
of course, many ppl with just leave, nobody will buy my own recipes and ill leave to Planetside 2 :)
but i will tell you this, Arcades was fun.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 12:30

Spacmanz

+∞

although i have only been playing T3 for a short while, then only difrence from T2 iv noticed is that monsters seem to have upgraded attacks, and spikes do more dmg :s

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 12:46

Aumir

Other ideas

- Insert mission levels in the Arcade, Rank and Danger ones, not giving prestige but giving us more "dungeon" options.
- Make Missions require Minerals as entrance fee, this way they retrofeed each other. Also gives Dark Matter minerals a huge sink as FSC fee.
- Make Scenario Rooms a lot more common (create more if too few or enter variations of them) to give more charm and adventure feel to the Arcade.
- Create another Tier 3 dungeon!! Two if possible! And no more zombies, please!
- Erase Shadow Keys. Wait, that is another discussion.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 13:04

Soarel

^^^

Aumir, I like those suggestions. But the only issue is that the Arcade will become a chore rather than a fun experience.

Little-Juances, I'm talking about the 5* players. Maybe the 5* armors/weapons could be nerfed? I don't really know.

Also, who the hell moved this thread to Suggestions?

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 13:21

Princeberton

+1 to all of this

I especially like Aumir's suggestions, especially the minerals system. It will finally give them a purpose again....

Nick has hinted that the various guild hall items will be obtainable through some sort of skill-based system. I'm hoping this will be integrated into the Arcade somehow.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 13:43

Toxicyoccm

piece of sawed timber, differing from a board only in

"A petition is a suggestion because it /suggests/ a course of action for someone/thing." -my reasoning

I'll only mention the things liked about this
I didn't know Kats were nerfed, but 'fixing' the enemies shouldn't be too hard. Hypothetically, couldn't OOO's dev take say, Alpha_Wolver.monster, copy it, rename it Alpha_WolverT4.monster, then remove modifications to it in comparison to the beta Alpha Wolver.
Though I'm not a coder/programmer, but I would think such a process is possible.

Minerals powering the one broken terminal-elevator so it goes to a Tier-appropriate danger mission/mini-boss mission would be fun. Like powering the arcade itself, but on a small scale. (though that might not be feasible with the current constraints in programming)

I don't like people earning more money than they do now in T3. If you meant dropping the largest possible coin for the drop (1 25-coin instead of 5 5-coins), than sure, but no to increased payouts anywhere.

My opinions, nothing factual.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 14:08

Grittle

*sigh* I remeber a year ago,

*sigh* I remeber a year ago, when all everyone did was arcade.....

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 14:21

Byas

> I don't like people earning

> I don't like people earning more money than they do now in T3. If you meant dropping the largest possible coin for the drop (1 25-coin instead of 5 5-coins), than sure, but no to increased payouts anywhere.

Regular levels on T3 Arcade doesn't give that much money but if you're talking about the T3 as a whole (including boss level), then yeah, FSC should be kept the same while the regular levels get a buff.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 15:31

#10

Kalaina-Elderfall

I don't really agree that

I don't really agree that running arcade was ever that exciting. People would grind FSC before missions, it's just that now you don't have to get one of the party members to rush down stratum 5 to get there.

On the other hand, non-mission levels do need a serious buff, because as of now there is nothing going for them other than recipes. And not everyone wants to bother with recipes. So anything OOO does to make things that aren't FSC actually worth playing and appealing is good in my book; I hate the feeling that I'm losing all kinds of money and getting nothing in return every time I do a regular clockworks level, and as CE prices go up that gets worse.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 16:48

#11

Darkshaodw

All the beast monsters need

All the beast monsters need to be nerfed. They rarely even attack you.
I agree with a lot of this stuff. Another great addition however, would be another t3 boss level. After vanaduke, the only challenging thing are the shadow lairs, which are very expensive. And how about making the boss levels none playable. Just the boss ones. This will increase the arcade's popularity

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 16:58

#12

Canine-Vladmir

....

this is back in suggestions :o

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 17:45

#13

Dvntbjh

Boy, I hear you.

I totally agree with this. i want to make the game like it was when i first played it.

challenging, interesting, and the urge to go on.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 18:05

#14

Toxicyoccm

to organize your face

OOO to put Crimson Hammer T3 in Arcade as free content, minus the weapons and material.

It's been suggested before, but maybe after the danger missions and Guild halls, our OOO developers can add O:CH in as T3. That would be the simplest solution.

Others would be actually creating new content. (An Operation: Crimson Staff/Wand/Vial/Bomb/whatever else the Crimson Order is made up of). Or maybe give more personality to fiends (I don't want this so bad, can't something other than fiends/ghosts be dangerous?) and beasts.

(what ever happened to Razwog and the Artifact?)

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 18:19

#15

Echo-Twothree

In the mission Crossing the Chasm, you beat up Razwog. You never got the artifact back.

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 19:05

#16

Princeberton

Live Long and prosper

Echo, he's asking why there isn't a continuation of that storyline

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 19:41

#17

Writhes

The devs are adding new

The devs are adding new levels every other month but there is really little to no reason for bothering to do them. People just want treasure at the end of their journey or in other words a reason to do things. I think the biggest problem is that there isn't any progress in gear once you get your 5* stuff. In my opinion we need more levels with bosses and token items and for alchemy to extend passed 5*

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 21:27

#18

Klipik

2 things

1: Get rid of danger missions. instead, make them findable deep within the clockworks (on tiers 2 and 3) for extra crowns and challenge. how to deal with the prestiege part?... not sure xD

2: Drawing people back to the arcade will mean striking a fine balance between adventure and grinding. Anyone remember (or has heard about) the days before WoW's "revolutionary" questing system? Before that, leveling up meant killing random enemies for no reason other to gain xp. No one liked it. Isn't that, essentially, what the arcade is? you pick a random gate, or the one that gives you the highest payout, run it, kill thinks for no reason other than profit, repeat. what we're all doing here is trying to eliminate grinding. And if the big corporations haven't done it in in 20 years, I don't think one forum of dedicated SK players can do it, either. Just a word of warning, be careful what you wish for.

Thu, 09/20/2012 - 05:03

#19

El-Odio

I don't like most of this

I can understand that the long term players want the game to be more challenging, but in my opinion to just buff monsters here and there, nerf armor and weapons where ever you go and make every level a Devilite-like level would be the. Worst. Possible. Thing.

Did it ever occur to anyone that the forums are home to the some of the most hardcore nolifers among the players? That's not meant as a insult, but as an observation. Yes, at times the game can be easy, but given that out of 5 Vanaduke random groups only a single one actually beats him, I think that it still is plenty of challenge to most gamers. On the forums however I get the feeling that that every second person does FSC naked and with one hand tied behind his back. The numbers just don't add up.

What would actually be necessary would be a T4. Something entirely new and challenging, just for those that have mastered everthing else.
Also, if every level was even remotely like a Devilite level, I would have quit the week I started playing. How is there any fun in dieing every two steps, when the energie you need to even play that level is so rare that a F2P can only do 10 of them a day?

I think I have to address this at some point as well: Every game is "finite" to some point. WoW makes a huge new expansion every 2 or so years, but until then you will at some point have all the loot the Dragonsoul has to offer, you will have all the arena sets and ranking points the game has to offer, and you will have done pretty much everything there is to do. However, Blizzard is neither lazy nor stupid, so they gave the players achievments that offered items, titels and whatnot.
So the problem of the hardcore players is not that everything is to easy, but that they have simply hit the end of what the content offers them. SL is a privilege, even if it is fun, you have to pay so much for just peeking into it, that many don't even want to think about doing that more than once a month. Danger Missions, as fun as they can be (which HoI is definitly not iin my eyes), get stale after some time, for they are always the same and playable only one each day. And then? That's it what OOO has to offer in content.

Thu, 09/20/2012 - 05:04

#20

Princeberton

Live Long and prosper

@El-Odio
"a F2P can only do 10 of them a day" - Not true. You make enough off of playing the levels to buy CE and go again.

"Out of 5 Vanaduke random groups only a single one actually beats him" - In my experience, out of 5 Vanaduke random groups, 4.5 beat him.

"Dying every two steps" - You're doing it wrong.

Thu, 09/20/2012 - 05:33

#21

El-Odio

Come on

Following your logic no player would ever need to stop grinding FSC: Go FSC, earn 8k - Go FSC, earn 8k - buy 100 CE - Go FSC, earn 8k - Go FSC, earn 8k - buy 100 CE - repeat
First of, that would be boring as ****. Second, it'd be the death of the market. Going FSC twice a day is already too much. And Arcade levels pay a lot less than FSC, so with the arcade earned money you could only get energy for another arcade run, without actually making profit. Only because you can doesn't mean it makes sense or should be done.

Maybe with a friend or guildmate in the group, sure, but only randoms? Never. I had a friend quit because the people couldn't get **** done.

You're missing the point and fail to notice an exaggeration. Also, I was talking global. Ever watched a newcomer try "The return of Ur"? We all have been at that point once.

Thu, 09/20/2012 - 05:44

#22

Toxicyoccm

Perhaps that s why we have compassion for the

Slow typer alert
-------------------------------------
El-Odio's points still stands, that the collective desire of the forum, (more content, new content, balancebalancebalance) is probably a very small representation of the active game's population. There are still people who find the game sufficiently challenging and upping difficulty on them would induce more rage quitting.

Also, for the greener players, it's hard to get better at levels when they've used all their mist.
My Vanaduke success rate is about 75%, take me on your next outing ;)

"However, Blizzard is neither lazy nor stupid, so they gave the players achievments that offered items, titels and whatnot."

Sounds like what Prestige was supposed to do, maybe it will get revisted soon. Although with people already at 50+k it'll be interesting what they do in terms of rewards. I do agree, overall that the problem of reaching the 'end of the game' is probably the source of it. The plight of the game developer is to slow your progression to that point, I guess.

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A rant, and a petition to fix the Arcade