PVP Feedback, Balancing and Problems

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Kharnor
Legacy Username

So I've been playing a lot of PvP matches today.
The weapons and armour in the game at the moment have clearly only been designed with PvE in mind, i.e. it doesn't matter how anything handles, as long as you can kill stuff.
PvP right now is an exercise in frustration. It is rock paper scissors without the rock, and the scissors are also on fire.

Here are some notes (from a person with >200 ping).

1) NERF THE ANTIGUA SERIES.
High range. High damage. High firing speed. High clipsize. High bullet speed. No delay to attack. Doesn't stop you from moving.
Someone joins pvp with one of these, and they win. Even if there was a rock, these scissors would cut it. And you can't just buy one and fight back, because it's a super rare random-drop-only item!
In the meantime, don't use these guns or you are a jerk and no-one wants to play with you. :P

2) Guns, in general.
Some guns have weaknesses that just seem to be there for no reason. They have little to no importance in PvE, but attempting to hit another player and get away when you can't move or rotate for a few seconds will mean your death.
Hitting another player at all is quite hard with a high ping. I still haven't figured out exactly how to lead my shots to reliably hit anything faster than a jelly; hitting other players in motion is just impossible.

3) Armour.
It's been said before, but resistance is useless. You will be assimilated.
Ahem. It's very hard to tell whether or not your resistances are actually increasing your survivability, so it always feels like they aren't. There's no noticeable advantage to be gained with any armour.
Except the scissor suit, of course. It is made of scissors. Armours that give damage bonuses beat everything.

4) Jars and vials are annoying to use.
Picking up an explosive jar should be a good strategy but most of the time it just doesn't work. You might attack it instead, which could leave you vulnerable for quite a while if you're using a slow weapon. In order to be sure you're picking it up, you need to pause long enough to... leave you vulnerable. Hmm.
Selecting a vial from your belt seems to make you stop for a split second and, similarly, the computer seems to take a lot of coaxing and button mashing to actually select and to throw the thing.
Jars seem to be invisible if they were thrown from offscreen. Many times I have suddenly been hit by nothing and caught on fire.

5) Shields work both too well and not well enough.
As a person with >200 ping, I can't block anything. (especially not antigua shots.) I see something coming, I put my shield up, I see the force field, the bullet hits me, I get damaged anyway. Other people seem to be able to block everything. I have no idea how this could be fixed, but it just sucks.
I don't seem to be able to knock people back with my shield the way I can with monsters.

6) Fast weapons don't work.
It seems that due to mercy invincibility, weapons that have multiple attacks in a short time don't work in pvp. Only the first attack hits, and then the enemy is invincible for the rest. This is noticable with autoguns and cutters. Of course, antiguas fire slow enough that every shot can hit.

7) Multiple damage types don't work.
I've noticed that when a player is hit by a weapon that does two damage types, only one colour of damage indicator appears. Perhaps this is because the two damage types are applied as seperate attacks, and the player is invincible after the first one hits? Or is the display just wrong? It's hard to test when there's no numbers on anything.

8) Points / respawning
My first few pvp games seemed to consist of my score going 0 - 30 - 0 - 30 - 0 - 30 - 0 - 30, and I had no idea why. It's not immediately clear how many points you get/lose for what action. Losing points for dying seems strange with no health available.
I'd prefer if you didn't lose points for dying, and the penalty was instead a respawn timer. In addition, players could see where someone was about to respawn, and how soon. Instant respawns are problematic: I've been killed a few times by someone I'd just killed, who instantly appeared behind me with sword swinging.
I'd also like to see another method of making other players lose points.

9) No health available.
Perhaps this is just a bug, but the spots that used to spawn health now don't spawn anything. I'd like to see health made available, but maybe not directly.
Perhaps each level could contain at least one respawning monster crate, and when the monster dies it drops hearts. That way replenishing your health is something that you need to fight for, not run and hide.

Evolution
Legacy Username
Yes against the "mercy

Yes against the "mercy invincibility". It is incredibly annoying.. For me personally, the charged attack for both the Cold Iron Carver and Calibur *can* do multiple hits, but in PvP you can only pull 1 off because of the invincibility after the first hit. I can understand that for weapons like the Vile Striker and such it is an even bigger pain.

Guns. Yes, absolutely. It is hard to hit somebody with the lag difference between you and the other player. I tried using a Mega Magnus. Short range, immobility after firing, high damage. I can tell, it's just about useless. Trying to hit somebody with it is an effort gone to waste. When you miss, you're a sitting duck for your target even.

Shields work too well if used correctly indeed. (especially with faster weapons) You can shield, wait till your opponent hits you and then strike back at the right moment. You can't seem to break through a shield very fast either. Takes more than a full combo hit, which gives you that "vulnerability" moment after your combo and BLAM, shielder strikes you down.

Armor, yes same issues as with regular balancing.

To add

Player movement speed: Monsters, you can chase them, and you can successfully catch up with them. PvP? You can't. You can run after somebody in circles without ever catching that person. If you somehow do manage to get closer, trying to hit the person with your sword will make you move forward slower than running. So when you actually get close enough, you still can't hit them!

Respawn-invulnerability: Why is it even there? Respawning seems to happen fairly random, which leaves times where you respawn right in the middle of some players fighting. I personally love when it happens, free hits at those guys! Is it fair though? Not quite..

Shango
Legacy Username
Yes, I also agree there

Yes, I also agree there shouldn't be invulnerability after taking damage. It makes any combos very dangerous to attempt. When you're trying to use a slow weapon like the Khorovod that relies on you landing hits and knocking the enemy back so they can't get back to you as you try to wrestle the huge slab of iron back into swinging position, trying to get the second attack off will leave you open for a very long time, plenty long enough for them to turn around and give you a good slice. Only single attacks can be effective.

I think we had one good game where no one had any overpowered gear, and then someone came in with his either Seraphic Armor or Armor of the Fallen that had Damage Increase: Ultra. At the end of the game he had a nice solid lead of THREE THOUSAND points.

Actually, I'm also totally fine with how shields work right now. Oh wait, except for one thing: I noticed when you respawn your shield is in the same state it was when you died, so if you died after having your shield blown out, you will respawn with no shield and have wait for it to regenerate before you can re-enter the fray--that is, if you're aware of this happening. Otherwise, you'll end up running back into battle with no shield. This needs to be fixed, obviously.

Shroom
Legacy Username
>4) Jars and vials are

>4) Jars and vials are annoying to use.

The difficulty you're having in picking one up might be related to your ping. In any case, you're going to be vulnerable while you pick it up and while you're holding it, so I don't really know what you're asking for.

>5) Shields work both too well and not well enough.

It's your ping. I doubt that there is anything that can be done here. If your ping is high, then PvP is going to be difficult in any game that requires quick reactions.

>8) Points / respawning

You should definitely lose points for dying. Death should always be avoided, and this is a way of ensuring that players do not want to die.

>Shields work too well if used correctly indeed. (especially with faster weapons) You can shield, wait till your opponent hits you and then strike back at the right moment.

Everyone can block. The shield isn't overpowered just because some players don't use it right.

>You can't seem to break through a shield very fast either. Takes more than a full combo hit, which gives you that "vulnerability" moment after your combo and BLAM, shielder strikes you down.

If your full combo gets blocked, you get punished for it. Only do the final swing of a combo if you know it's going to actually hit. If their shield is up, you should only be using attacks that are safe on block. If you did actually break his shield, then he can't block anymore, so if he tries to fight, just tear him apart.

>Player movement speed

The only other option is making players move at different speeds. If you're faster, he's easy to catch. If he's faster, you'll never catch him. Making everyone move the same speed is the best idea. Trust me. Anything else would be extremely frustrating.

>Respawn-invulnerability

This I kind of agree with. It's not really the invulnerability that's the problem, but the location. Players really shouldn't be respawning in a group of enemies.

Imagen de Dogrock
Dogrock
>5) Shields work both too

>5) Shields work both too well and not well enough.
It's your ping. I doubt that there is anything that can be done here. If your ping is high, then PvP is going to be difficult in any game that requires quick reactions.

Even with sub-100 ping this issue occurs for me. In fact I almost always tend to get hit before the animation plays. This seems to be local to PvP in SK only for me. No other game I play have I observed this phenomena.

Evolution
Legacy Username
I tend to block things before

I tend to block things before the animation appears :] pro!

Talbain
Legacy Username
Total agreement about the

Total agreement about the Antigua series. Why would you ever use any other gun? And since combating an Antigua-series wielder all but requires you have one yourself - especially if the wielder in question has a low ping (and therefore a high degree of accuracy) - why would you ever use any weapon at all? Serious balance issue.

I don't have any huge problem with the fast weapons; mercy invincibility DOES prevent combo attacking but with the right combination of armors you can get that first swing to deal a respectable amount of damage, and you can make that swing quickly in between shielding. I'd like to see the slower weapons made more powerful than the fast ones, but not by making the fast ones weaker (two-strikers are already completely obsolete, in and out of the ring).

Shields aren't too bad off. You can see what shield the enemy has and attack it with a damage type that it doesn't resist. This is one of the benefits to unlocking multiple weapon slots. Driver guns (and of course the Sentenza and Argent Peacemaker) rip right through my Aegis in two or so shots. You can't complain that your normal damage sword can't get through a normal specialty shield. The latency issues, however, are valid.

Ultimate needs to have a reduced price tag. It's nice to play high-stakes games, but as is no one is interested in losing that much money - especially to unbalanced assaults.

Shango
Legacy Username
I agree with the ultimate

I agree on the Ultimate price. I think 1000 crowns would be a pretty good alternative.

And yes, I feel the slower, heavier weapons like the Khorovod and Avenger have been overnerfed. I prefer them to the faster, spammy weapons for tactile advantage and precision striking, but their damage per second is absolutely terrible. When adventuring with people who have weapons like the Vile Striker and Wild Hunting Blade the difference becomes impossible to ignore. They are able to kill things very quickly, but I have to bat the enemies around for quite a while before I kill them. Often while I'm doing that they'll come up and finish it off for me, and even more often they kill things before I'm even able to get an attack in.

Edit: Oh, and there's one other thing I'd like to point out: Avenger and Khorovod stats show that they have the same speed, but the Avenger is obviously faster, even with the Khorovod's-... wait, wait, it no longer has Attack Speed Increase: Ultra? Aw.

AndroidHub
Legacy Username
Antigua series

While I will admit the antigua series is unbalanced in pvp, I would be rather upset if they ruined it for pve in the spirit of balancing pvp, considering they are about the only guns that can hold their own in higher tiers. I think if anything should be done there should be other types of brawls for just melee weapons if it's that big of an issue.

Dolomite
Legacy Username
I feel about the same as

I feel about the same as AndroidHub. I'd prefer if PvP got balanced without affecting the way weapons and items work in PvE.

Avlein
Legacy Username
Settings.

I suggest that there should be rooms for Melee-only (that is, swords) and Projectiles-only (Guns.)

And in association, a Bombs-only? Does anyone even seriously use bombs in PVP?

Kharnor
Legacy Username
I use my Radiant Sun Shards

I use my Radiant Sun Shards bomb sometimes, if I'm near two or more people who are fighting each other and not paying attention to me. If I'm lucky enough to actually hit anything, it does a nice chunk of damage. It is ever so satisfying to kill two people at once with it.
(Players seem much harder to hit than monsters, even with shard bombs. Are their collision boxes really small?)
Non-shard bombs don't seem to have a use in pvp. They leave you too vulnerable and are far too easy to avoid. This is one thing that couldn't be easily balanced for PvP without throwing PvE out of whack.

>You should definitely lose points for dying. Death should always be avoided, and this is a way of ensuring that players do not want to die.
A way, yes, but not the only way. Respawn timers have the same effect, without the side effect of demoralising players that have a bad streak. (0 points! YOU GET NOTHING!)

On rebalancing:
Not having tried the antigua series myself, I can't speak for what it feels like to use it in PvE. But if my experience in PvP is any indication, then it clearly needs balancing in PvE as well. It outshines all the other guns by far. That is not a good thing because it makes other guns worthless.
Fast weapons pretty clearly need nerfing in general (or everything else needs buffing) because, as Talbain and Shango noted above, their individual strikes are comparable in damage to heavier weapons. They just do many more of them. If the mercy invincibility was removed from pvp without also balancing these, you'd see people dying instantly from vile strikers every time.