Opportunity Cost of Grinding and/or selling for profit: One obvious conclusion

10 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]
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Volebamus

Rant below, but if you want a quick read / tl;dr, read the next few lines:

Grinding or taking advantage of the marketplace without having "fun" is not worth it if you are willing to spend a Quarter for each 100 CE. Or another way to put it: if you are so willing to spend mind-numbing hours to earn profits in Spiral Knights, why don't you try to work for or save money with only 1/5 of the time you would spend "not playing"?

----------Start Rant----------

I'm sure many people have done the math for this ( and I've done myself extensively) that even after factoring in successful Jelly Runs or Buy-Low and Sell-High strategies, the "profit margins" you can get in this game is (when converted to what you could spend with real money) are factored on the scale of dimes.

Quick summary:

  • 320CE~$1, or 32CE=a Dime (using a really conservative basis of buying the $5 for 1600 CE)
  • Successful Jelly Run returns: 4500 crown for 30 CE spent, or ~3kcr profit
  • Assuming rate of 2 runs per hour, that's 6kcr return per hour, or 120 CE/h
  • 120 CE/h ~ $.375 per hour

This is assuming a lot of things, such as not factoring profit that could go into tokens and mats. But even on the ridiculous end on being TWICE as productive as the scenario mentioned, you're still looking at a rate of still less than $1 per hour.

Now remember, this is not a critique towards the people who are having fun as they are on Spiral Knights. You could have fun playing with whatever budget you so desire (which incluldes $0), or you could even have fun playing the in-game market since there is no losses aside from your leisure time (which is not really a loss as long as it really is still enjoyable).

No, this is for those who seem to be grinding for the sake of grinding, but not really enjoying the time they have in this game. Grinding in this case is either leveling, or advertising their low buying prices with hopes to sell them high for a profit. Of course, to figure this out, I myself was assuming I could "profit" from these market differences as well. But to put in the effort of not having fun playing Spiral Knights means that I'm effectively "working" for a return of $1/hour.

At the same time, there's the flip-side to this. If it's so not worth grinding since the conversion rate to real money is so little, then it should be very desirable to spend relatively little money to jump up in power TREMENDOUSLY. Even if you buy your equipment on a high end, $10 worth of CE will net you tons of 4* equipment to choose from, or a handful of 5* equipment if you so desire. While 100CE seems like so little to play the game for more than a few hours, if you actually put money into the game to get more playtime, it's almost like you get an additional day's worth of mist energy for just a quarter. It's almost like the same amount you'd pay for an additional continue in an arcade.

What I'm getting at is compared to other free-but-pay-for-boosts games online, this game seems to be the one most "worth it" as far as progress jump by spending money is concerned. I'm not in favor of increasing prices to buy CE with real money, but the current rates are a steal when you look at the time and effort you'd save grinding or playing the market while not having fun doing so.

----------End Rant----------

So for either the tl;dr or the rant, I'm curious if anyone has seen this as well to the extent of what "progress" means in this game. Or I should say, why aren't people actually putting money into this game because of the amount of time you'll save if you hate grinding in other paid games? I used to play another game by Sega called Phantasy Star Online, but the amount of time I put just on the endless grinding was what you'd always expect of MMO-RPGs. At the same time, I couldn't save myself the torture with anything remotely affordable compared to what I would pay in real life, and this is on top of having to pay the cost of the game AS WELL as the $10/mo for being able to join the online gaming servers.

My true main point:
In all honesty, Three Rings isn't making this obvious enough to people. While you see what $5 or $10 can get you in terms of CE, it's hard to actually know the value till you've seen what type of "profits" you can get in-game from any method you can see as high-returns, and comparing that to what you could've done instead by paying a comparable dollar amount (which is at least 1/5-1/10 of the effort actually doing the grinding or market-playing even on the basis of minimum-wage).

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Eeks
You could spend $1000 and get

You could spend $1000 and get the best UVs on every piece of equipment in the game.. and then what? Playing levels is part of the fun and some people find enjoyment in making profit while they play. FWIW, I think a lot of people ARE putting money into the game. What is giving you the impression that they aren't? All the CE that exists in the game is energy that somebody paid for. Just some food for thought.

Tanonev
Witty saying goes here.

Fun isn't binary. When people claim to not be having fun while grinding, they usually don't mean that they'd rather be getting their teeth drilled. What they *really* mean is that they aren't having as much fun as they would be playing other games. And whether X% fun for free is worth the same as (X+Y)% fun for a quarter a day is very much up to the individual. If you actually find grinding Jelly King to be as boring as grinding burgers and fries at your local fast food place, then sure, the latter is more cost-effective; chances are that isn't actually the case, though.

Planet
Legacy Username
Common sense

If it was more profitable to grind than to buy energy, Three Rings wouldn't make any money. Plenty of people are buying plentiful amounts of energy.

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Volebamus
You all do have points to your arguments
  • By eek5
    You could spend $1000 and get the best UVs on every piece of equipment in the game.. and then what? Playing levels is part of the fun and some people find enjoyment in making profit while they play. FWIW, I think a lot of people ARE putting money into the game. What is giving you the impression that they aren't? All the CE that exists in the game is energy that somebody paid for. Just some food for thought.

I never suggested that extreme, but more along the lines of a hundredth of that. Also, I'm very sure that people are putting money into the game, but I'm also betting that those people put a LOT of money in the game, yet are few themselves. It's what I hear of things like FarmVille, where there is a very small percentage that pays money, but when they do, they can go overboard and spend hundreds... Not that I think Spiral Knights is pulling the same numbers due to being able to spec yourself our in full 5* gear for multiple characters for the price of an actual paid game.

I'm talking about the casual players, who could be convinced to put in a $5 amount once, and be set for a month. My suspicion is that the audience is highly segmented with an either-or that you either buy in bulk at once or not spend money at all. I don't know about the CE being all originally paid for, as how could the game have started in the very beginning with so little CE in the market?

  • By eek5 tanonev
    Fun isn't binary. When people claim to not be having fun while grinding, they usually don't mean that they'd rather be getting their teeth drilled. What they *really* mean is that they aren't having as much fun as they would be playing other games. And whether X% fun for free is worth the same as (X+Y)% fun for a quarter a day is very much up to the individual. If you actually find grinding Jelly King to be as boring as grinding burgers and fries at your local fast food place, then sure, the latter is more cost-effective; chances are that isn't actually the case, though.

You have a point about that, but that's not the grinding I'm talking about. I know grinding since I've done it plenty in another Sega game (maxed out the in-game timer that has an upper limit of 999 hours), and that type of grinding can very much exist in Spiral Knights as well. That's the type of grinding where if I could get that rare-and-elusive item 10 times faster by paying $1, then I would consider it.

But the other type of grinding here includes people who are the "market watchers" being vigilant getting the best deals, offers, and margins on trades. Even if very successful, it's a bit off-putting to know that after all that in-game effort of taking advantage of the market, a person grinding burgers is at least ten times more efficient than you.

Also, the whole issue is the scale at which the grinding operates on a return-per hour. Like I said, doing all this grinding gets you a net gain of around a third of a dollar an hour. Just working at a minimum wage job for only 1 hour nets you fifteen times the amount of return in the same amount of time.

Feynt
Legacy Username
Dude, just four more Big Macs

Dude, just four more Big Macs until tier 3!

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Tive
Grinding is rather

Grinding is rather meaningless indeed.

Personally I just play the game. Being able to dispatch any kind of enemy composition in different team sizes is fun. Being successful trader is fun too, just like winning monopoly is fun. (though without Auction House it's rather clumsy to accomplish here).

Another thing to keep in mind is, I amassed ingame items worth enough to pay anything I might want, while I enjoyed playing the game.

In the end, it's not grinding if you have fun playing the game. And compared to about any typical mmo, this game here actually has enjoyable pve about destroying huge groups of monsters.

edit: and again, with the people watching for good deals, this is a way to enjoy a gameplay element, playing the game. there's no merit to it besides enjoying the act itself. it's fun.

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Eeks
>But the other type of

>But the other type of grinding here includes people who are the "market watchers" being vigilant getting the best deals, offers, and margins on trades. Even if very successful, it's a bit off-putting to know that after all that in-game effort of taking advantage of the market, a person grinding burgers is at least ten times more efficient than you.

That's not the point at all. The fun for "market watchers" is in buying stuff for cheap and reselling it or selling stuff for profit. That's what they find fun. To tell them to go get a minimum wage job and just buy CE is silly especially when there is no end game other than more "grinding"

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Volebamus
In the end, it's not grinding
  • By TiVVV34
    In the end, it's not grinding if you have fun playing the game. And compared to about any typical mmo, this game here actually has enjoyable pve about destroying huge groups of monsters.

Oh I know, but like I mentioned in my rant, my points aren't being addressed at players like you at all. You actually enjoyed your time doing that, so it's not the mindless-grind I'm critical of.

Off-topic, any good ways to actually show a quote? Other forums usually have some way to divide the quoted and my response, but the cite tag doesn't seem to show any differences. I'm playing around with the formatting using the list tag, but I'm hoping there is an easier way.

Leviathan
Legacy Username
"That's not the point at all.

"That's not the point at all. The fun for "market watchers" is in buying stuff for cheap and reselling it or selling stuff for profit. That's what they find fun. To tell them to go get a minimum wage job and just buy CE is silly especially when there is no end game other than more "grinding""

Bingo. I've played the energy market a fair bit.

It's an engaging puzzle in and of itself.

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Tive
I'm not sure there's a player

I'm not sure there's a player who simply doesn't know, that by working an hour overtime he could get some 3k ce. I mean it's right in your face when you open the energy depot.