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So when's OOO going to fix the real issues most normal people have with the game?

24 replies [Last post]
Wed, 09/11/2013 - 02:19
Crossproduct

As in terrible netcode/hit detection/lag and all that mess.

OOO wonder's why new people don't stick around, the old energy system was a factor but it was not the biggest factor. It's simply people do not like getting killed by things that clearly do not hit them on their screen. You have for example the following non exhaustive list:

-Enemy projectiles hitting you because their actual position is ahead of their displayed position.
-Enemy melee range attacks hitting you even farther away from where they are on the screen. The newest greaver clones with the 3 attacks in succession are especially bad at this. Or the lumbers who hit you before they even swing their fist.
-Your own projectiles, such as gun shots not going where you fired them, but instead where you move the mouse to after you fire... (Fire and quickly move your mouse and watch the projectile change course...)
-Weapon changing bugs where sometimes weapons don't change when you expect them to, and then they change to new weapons totally when you try to change again. Charging quirks, can't cancel a charge with a weapon change etc...
-Interface Memory Leaks, readily noticeable with the auction house or large inventories of materials or other items which makes the interface get slower and slower.

There's plenty more bugs that are readily noticeable to anyone who plays the game even a little bit, something I don't think the "devs" ever do. For them it's just a job, they don't actually use what they make they just want money for it. End result is a poor product every time. They could solve a ton of issues by doing 3 things. Fixing player input so it's always processed in the same order it's input, fixing interface memory leaks, adjusting monster/projectile/other player animations to take into account players latency.

Anyway, I've debated making this post for ages now, it was clear the "devs" didn't really care about making this game decent, so why should I "help" them by pointing out obvious bugs and design flaws. However the recent change of the highly flawed energy system (I know this is an unpopular opinion but it really was a terrible free to play model), and the suggestion of new work being done that isn't just re-skinned costumes and re-releasing of old rare items then perhaps they'll do something about the core broken mechanics, or not. In the meantime I'll be playing torchlight 2 where monsters actually look like they hit you when they hit you or planetside 2 which runs great with 1000+ players running around an immense map where sk chokes on 4 players doing almost nothing in levels simpler than doom 1.

Oh yeah the idea to limit players to only one sprite skill at a time and can't be cast while using a normal weapon at the same time? really not bright, it's like OOO is trying to make players not have fun.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 03:46
#1
Aus-Lagger's picture
Aus-Lagger
how about implementing

how about implementing battle.net style custom game hosting whereas players can connect to each other. like in Diablo.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 03:58
#2
Krakob's picture
Krakob

You might want to read up a bit on what latency is and what causes it. Latency isn't a fault in programming. Neither are the effects.

TL;DR on causes:
YOUR geographical location.
YOUR Internet service provider.
Overloaded servers.

Do note that overloaded servers aren't an issue here as that'd create issues for EVERYONE but that's not the case.

TL;DR on effects:
You posted them as "bugs".

As for the devs relation to the game, you might want to reconsider it. How do you think you would feel about something that you dedicated eight hours a day to for three years? Try just working a lot on a game, a painting, a song, or anything for just a month and reconsider that statement.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 04:15
#3
Aus-Lagger's picture
Aus-Lagger
latency

latency is intrinsic to all network applications

the only real way I can think of to circumvent the latency is to have an offline mode but then that opens up the game to widespread hacking and cheating.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 04:27
#4
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Asus

Not necessarily. If OOO's server generates the level and mobs before it's player, you could definitely remove hacking with say, crowns from the mobs. It'd definitely be more vulnerable but I think it could be done. Warframe does it, so why can't SK? :D

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 05:05
#5
Traevelliath's picture
Traevelliath

I think it's more because OOO doesn't have enough servers or enough servers of high enough quality.

And with a development team that could probably fit in my college dorm room, I wouldn't expect the amount of servers someone like Blizzard would have running.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 06:54
#6
Little-Juances's picture
Little-Juances

Developers want your money, but you ain't forced to pay. The game is free in the end.
It's also easy to say "i want this", but how would you do it?

Maybe developers don't have the experience. Maybe they are working on too many proyects at once.
That doesn't mean they don't care. Make your own game and see how easy it is.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 08:11
#7
Autofire's picture
Autofire
You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

They need a system like in Warframe where the players host. Then when joining parties you just connect to them. This way, you never lag.

HOWEVER, this opens up to hacks.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 08:17
#8
Draycos's picture
Draycos

A quick fix for that would be ensuring currency/mats are server-side.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 10:51
#9
Crossproduct
There are a number of ways to

There are a number of ways to handle or hide latency from the player, the most common are

Progress the animations so they take into account player's lag, so displayed position/animation is a number of time units ahead based on the player's stable average latency. The client would have to be updated to know when monsters spawn and such and handle monster movements/attacks on it's own.

Or move all hit detection to the client side.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 10:56
#10
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Autofire

Correction: it would guarantee* lag. People tend to have worse connections than dedicated server machines. That aside, it'd mean people far away from Europe and the US would be able to have good connections.

*does not apply to hosts with good internet.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 12:39
#11
Rhagnarock
I had to log... so much ignorance...

1. Projectile display are good, get used to being hit in front of the missile not behind

2. Latency is your major issue

3. Closed battle.net server = thousands and upwards of dollars + maintenance, OOO doesn't have ressource.

4. P2P (peer 2 peer) connection are worst and often results in a revamp of the whole matchmaking system due to me hosting in quebec and you joining from wherever you live and be on my 100% lag free connection for me and 100% guarantee lag on your end. Go learn what P2P is.

5. Animation: Animation occur for certain reason and do happens even if you lag. The game is going regardless of what your doing.

6. OOO is doing a fine job at keep servers up and even made new ones for aeriagames...

7. Offline SK, no fun at all in this and Offline SK couldn't be turned into online, meaning SP player = SP player. And SK is a MMORPG, not a RPG, playing alone is boring, go loot dat mighty cleaver too... with no payments and only you and your trusty hacks to get rich (or legit if you have no life)

no

no

and no

Edit: Most common problem for normal players: NO ARSENAL IN FSC AND BOSSES LAIR TO UP MY FFFFFFFF ITEMS!!! That's the major problem RIGHT NOW, *grab Polaris lvl 1* *do FSC* *Polaris still lvl 1* GO FIGURE!!!!

Edit 2: to up an item from FSC you have to manually leave on each new depths to access the forge to up your heat then join back your team, or if you did solo then THOUGH LUCK, lonely people don't get to heat up during bosses! <----- this is what OOO is telling you

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 17:08
#12
Mohandar's picture
Mohandar

Don't diss software devs, being the smaller team that OOO is, I'm sure they are working pretty damn hard. There is a grain of truth though, when you know the inner workings of what makes something tick, it loses some of its magic. That is why testers and non-dev QA is important. But back on topic.

I am curious how SK handles latency, because many games use a predictive model where the client begins calculating and animating a few hundred milliseconds ahead, checking in with the server to verify. Specifically:
When you fire a gun, or move somewhere, the client on your computer immediately begins animating that motion after it sends the command to the server. If all is well, a hundred milliseconds later the server confirms that yeah, you successfully performed that action and you are none the wiser.
The problem is when that lag-time grows too large, or some chance even just happens to interfere: for example, on the server a wolver teleported next to you and blocked your way. You may have moved a tile to the left, but when the server confirmation comes back, the client snaps you back to your original position because the server states you were not in fact where the client thought you were. Another way this could happen is if the packet containing the initial "start moving" command got dropped.
Finally, if this gets bad enough, the client and server can get utterly out of synch, resulting in the kind of thing where you get stuck/rubberbanded in place while monsters and party members go walking off into space, ultimately resulting in a disconnect.
The periodic position corrections I experience, as well as the wholesale desynch that happens occasionally suggest to me this is how SK handles natural latency. I suspect all of these new objects and increased movement speed have something to do with the perception that lag is getting worse; in the old days, there wasn't nearly as much going on in a given instant.

I am a little hard-pressed to explain the bullets changing course though (which I have definitely experienced). Perhaps the fire command is tracked separately from the cursor location, and the cursor location data gets processed first on the server side, while the client doesn't have to process them discretely so just assumes you are shooting in that direction. Then, because the server received the updated cursor info before the fire command, it sends back confirmation that you fired in a different direction, and the client adjusts your bullet mid-flight.

If the devs are willing to be more transparent about this, I would love to hear. :)

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 18:51
#13
Thimol's picture
Thimol
-----

real issues

because there are fake issues

OOO wonder's why

uh-huh

Oh yeah the idea to limit players to only one sprite skill at a time and can't be cast while using a normal weapon at the same time? really not bright, it's like OOO is trying to make players not have fun.

i.e. let's go back to the [cog]-pat simulator circa a few months ago

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 20:56
#14
Onekone's picture
Onekone
I would actually defend OP's

I would actually defend OP's position. Why? Because "it's a small team" is never a good excuse, seeing my Mega Magnus bullet home on devilite I tried to shoot is both funny and sad, having ~20-40FPS (And ~10-30FPS in Shadow Lairs. Seriously?) in most dungeons, and ~70 in empty guild hall is ridicilous and on top of all that - game quite prone to freeze when lag spike occurs.

Seriously. And that's on same computer who runs games like SASRT, Warframe and MK9 at full speed just fine, and yet lags in game with 2D-Doom level of complexity

If it's "faulty coding from unexperienced past me", it's time to redo thing from all over again. Even if it's not, still, game would benefit from optimising. And player-hosted dungeons too.

Edit: And "OOO don't have resources"-point. Unless Energy pack money and stuff goes directly to Sega, they should have enough resources to afford at least one more server, and even then, OOO is Sega's company, don't they should fund them too? Or it's just one-way money vaccum?

And one more thing - make Preview thingy in gear stats optional. It's pain to scroll through. And I can't see whole list of materials I need to craft gear with it

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 23:59
#15
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Onekone

I'm guessing you're not familiar with programming due to your post. See, we're talking Java here. Java is like a big poop taken by an elephant and three crocodiles when it comes to games. I don't know what MK9 is but I'm dang sure SASRT and Warframe are made in languages that can be used for games.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 01:26
#16
Batabii's picture
Batabii

*cough*

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 02:01
#17
Onekone's picture
Onekone
@Krakob

Minecraft for that matter runs half of the time (brief slowdowns during chunk loading and generating) better than SK. Sure, it's not a graphy or detailed or something as SK is, but it still resource-demanding as Skolver. And I thought MK9 was an obvious one

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 03:12
#18
Mickmane's picture
Mickmane

If you say 'most people' without backing that up with actual data from polls, it reduces your credibility to zero, and basically just shows that you don't know how to spell 'in my opinion'.

Your definition of 'normal' also is, well, you not knowing how to spell 'in my opinion'.

Most of the stuff you list does not happen to me. Therefore it can not be the game's fault.

I do experience weapon changing faults, I expect it's my keyboard (I refuse to bear the windoze keys that are on all newer ones, they just get in the way, thus my keyboard, which doesn't have them, is somewhat geriatric).

I do get AH (and just Haven) getting a bit slow after being in the game for a while. As that's not in the middle of a run, there's an easy solution: close the window and restart.

So, I (speaking for myself, I don't claim to know what some random vague 'most people' want) am happy with the gods of SK working on the stuff recently announced to be coming.

Ragnarock, the bit about 'most people' also applies to you. No arsenal in an enemy lair consisting of consecutive levels may be your problem, but where you go is solely your decision.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 06:20
#19
Shamanalah's picture
Shamanalah
my 2 cents

@ Mickmane but then answer this:

Why can't you upgrade your heat during bosses LAIR, JK, Snarby, RT, Seerus and vana cannot be used to heat up anymore, they are pointless, I do arcade runs to up heat now

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 06:57
#20
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Onekone

SK does much heavier graphical stuff than Minecraft. Sure, it's terribly programmed but it's still so much more simple than SK. Most notably, you'll find that SK has textures bigger than 16x16 pixels and models that aren't bound to rectangles.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 08:55
#21
Mickmane's picture
Mickmane

Shamanala wrote: "Why can't you upgrade your heat during bosses LAIR"

Read what I wrote: "No arsenal in an enemy lair consisting of consecutive levels may be your problem, but where you go is solely your decision."

No arsenal in an enemy lair consisting of consecutive levels
enemy lair ... consecutive levels

If you only do runs for heat that's your decision.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 09:54
#22
Cobaltstarfire's picture
Cobaltstarfire
.

Hum, I don't experience many of these problems, not even on my very old computer, and definitely not on my shiny new computer. The rest is latency (although I almost always have 4 bars, so I wonder sometimes if their latency meter is broken...)

Just because they made an announcement about whats in store doesn't mean they aren't still working on actual bug fixes and the like, that is an ongoing never ending battle for developers.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:01
#23
Sweet-Hope's picture
Sweet-Hope

When i have Windows XP the game used to run pretty well, i only have troubles when a new enemy spawn in the map and sometimes my game freezes for 1 seg when lot of enemies spawn. things like check my inventory, open mission panel, auction house, event hub, and so on, those options took like 30 segs to show up generally "lagging" a bit. but thats when i have XP and thats when my computer dont have a reformat from 4 years ago.

Now i reformated my computer and i have windows 7, everything runs pretty well and i dont have those previous freezes, and options really show up quickly, BUT NOW i have troubles in some maps that i dont used to have before:

Ironclaw Munition Factory: Now im experiencing those low fps that some forumers use to have. mainly because the explosions of the missiles and a lot of dynamic things in the map

Any Candlestick: im experiening now a low in FPS when i go to rooms with Candles which light are on, i guess is the "mist" of the candle that lower my FPS because when i get out of there my FPS returns to normal, i guess it have to do with the "constant" animation of the mist which the candle have a long with those "small sparkles" shinning everytime.

Any level which have lots of explosives blocks: im not talking about the enemy: blast cube, i mean the obstacles blocks which explodes once they get hit. i think the reason that my FPS lower when i get into a room with them its due the constant "animation" they have.

Any level which have smoke: this is the worse, my FPS lower a lot when i get into a room which have those constant smoke going out. this really is annoying that once i get into a smoke thingy my FPS really get to the floor. luckely there just a few maps that use this effect.

This only start to happen when i swicht to Windows 7, because with Win Xp i never have such trouble. probably is my Ram, since i just only have 2 gb of ram, maybe when i upgrade my computer to 4 gb of ram i wouldnt have those troubles, because even when i play in windowed mode i cant have firefox and spiral knights together because if i have "full screen" on firefox and then play in windowed mode in spiral knights, i get too my FPS lower.

In the end, most of those troubles you describe would be your computer too. but i wouldnt mind if OOO implement more options like turn off smokes effects and things like that. but well i will see how spiral knights runs when i get 4 gb of ram

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:30
#24
Jendar-Nox's picture
Jendar-Nox
...

In fact, SK could really benefit from some traffic optimization. It generates HUGE amounts of traffic, and the more data you send and receive, the more time it takes (while time is always critical for networking-based games, every millisecond matters). I have 8 megabit per second bandwidth, and still sometimes I partially experience the problems that topic starter has described.

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