Kicking Ethics
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 11:29
The other day I was running with a pick-up group of swordites. I'm a gun/bomb person myself, so I don't have any really impressive blades on-hand. I was holding my own, using a Freezing Vap mk. 1 and Super Blaster, not really DPSing the way the swordies were, but not dying either, through the first half of T2. When we hit the terminal, the group leader started telling me to bring out a sword. "Fine, " I thought, "I can use my level 5 Cutter with my freezing vap and still live." When we hit the second floor below, the leader started yelling at me for not using my sword exclusively. When I explained why I was using a vaporizer and not just a rather weak blade, he kicked me.
This was probably the correct course of action in this case. I didn't want to play by his rules, and he wasn't interested in having me with his group as a result. Fine. The only problem is that the kick didn't activate until someone had already picked up a statue, and suddenly I was unable to continue, not because I couldn't handle the combat, but because the statue simply wasn't there.
With this I pose the following: When is it appropriate to kick someone? Are there factors to consider, like people holding keys/statues that won't respawn after the kick, or is that the breaks of partying with someone who disagrees with you? Is kicking ever really okay? I'm curious to hear thoughts on this subject.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 11:53
#2
Yeah...
It is definitely not appropriate to wait until a time that will screw over the other player before kicking them. Also I don't really consider it a appropriate to kick someone for their weapon choices, only for badly mishandling things in ways that hurt the party, and by 'hurt' I mean cause damage. However, it's a unilateral decision with no real consequences so you can be kicked any time for any reason or no reason.
Also it should probably be considered a bug to be able to kick someone in any situation that makes them dead or trapped and that should really be fixed. It might make things a little tedious, but it might be better for someone being kicked to end up back at the start gate for the level, and to reset all the keys, statues, and buttons. Of course that probably requires new code that is more complicated than it seems like it should be, when you consider locked room fights and such, so it'll be a bit tedious for the player to walk through the 'completed' half of the depth and a bit troublesome for the devs... but anything else is going to allow deliberate trapping.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 11:54
#3
Depends on the advantage.
I'm not entirely certain what you mean, but typically I would end up pulling a few enemies, who I would freeze if and only if I was the only one they were fighting. I wasn't getting in other people's way. I was using them to freeze enemies that were closing on me too quickly or numerously to efficiently dispatch. The small AOE meant that I was using it mostly in corridors.
I'm curious, what do you mean by pain? I'd like to know what drawbacks you've found from them.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 11:56
#4
@slyjohnny
I completely disagree with you; please elaborate why you think freezing bombs are as bad as blast bombs. As for the OP: I only ever kick if a party member is suddenly AFK without warning for a long time, or has poor behavior/attitude. In your case you simply ran into an jerk, and while it is regrettable it shouldn't be too much of a surprise in an MMO.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 12:00
#5
Which gate were you in when
Which gate were you in when this happened? Was it the one with the Royal Jelly palace?
The Royal Jelly boss is pretty much "Swords or DIE!" Guns and bombs are incapable of hurting it faster than it regenerates, plus the boss and its minions have more maximum health for each player present. As a result, gunners contribute nothing against the boss and only make the fight -harder- on the other three players.
I still think it was kind of a jerk move for them to kick you, but I'm trying to tell you -why- they thought it might be necessary to kick you-- if you were with them when they faced the boss, you might not have been able to help them win against it.
Of course if it wasn't the Royal Jelly Palace we were talking about, then all this is null and void and the dude was just being a narrow-minded idiotface.
Freezing atomizers are a godsend for Calibur wielders, what with holding the enemy still long enough for all three hits from the charged attack to land.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 12:07
#6
@aeolianmode
I think I may disagree with you about the "jerk" thing. While regrettable, I believe that his actions were appropriate. It's not like he deliberately knifed me in the back, and it was his responsibility to manage the party well.
Senshi, I see a few too many crown-based exploits for such an operation. Someone could easily repeat the same level without having to spend energy just by getting kicked each time. I think the way they do it now is probably best. It just happened to be at a really bad time. Warning someone might be a better solution, so that nobody gets kicked spontaneously and people know not to grab things during a kick operation.
@gigafreak
Yes, it was the jelly level, but I've held enemies at bay while the swordsmen went after JK before and it worked well; with the minions largely irrelevant, JK becomes fairly easy because the swords can dedicate themselves entirely to it. That's how it's played out in the past. And I'm not trying to trash his decision; I think it was probably fair. That is an interesting opinion, though, and I'm glad to understand it better. Thanks.
The main question is more along the lines of "How can we make kicks not cause serious problems?" than "Grr. Rage."
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 12:08
#7
deleted to prevent
deleted to prevent double-post
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 12:09
#8
here's what you could have
here's what you could have done, explain the situation and ask a friend to help you out. invite him in, ask him to step on the block and ask him to go solo while stepping on it, then u'll have it open for both of u
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 12:09
#9
@Luden
That's an interesting solution. Has that worked in the past, or is it a theory?
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 12:14
#10
its worked in the past.
for
its worked in the past.
for the person not going solo, you have to get in before the other goes solo i think.
but for the person going solo, the block stays activated even with nothing on it if you went solo while it was being stepped on.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 12:27
#11
Sorry, but the leader in your party is a HORRIBLE player
- Niramu
When we hit the terminal, the group leader started telling me to bring out a sword. "Fine, " I thought, "I can use my level 5 Cutter with my freezing vap and still live." When we hit the second floor below, the leader started yelling at me for not using my sword exclusively. When I explained why I was using a vaporizer and not just a rather weak blade, he kicked me.
As a multi-sword-user myself, I'm sorry, you were in witness of a VERY BAD player with no idea of strategy.
- Freeze bomb users are godsend support for sword users
- You weren't even in the Jelly King where the blade was necessary
- He was FORCING you to use the blade on non-Bosses? WTF. I almost honestly want to know the person's name so I could avoid them...
Hopefully more competent players try never to dissuade you from your playing style. We have enough melee-users, and not enough great support from bomb users.
More on topic... Yeah, it's a good thing to note how statues and keys should not be affected by kicks, I never knew that myself actually. The dev's could consider having all movable level-necessary items reset when being kicked so that the type of situation you were in doesn't happen again.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 12:32
#12
Hm
Sounds like a bug to me OP, report it.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 12:56
#13
I guess I wasn't clear!
Senshi, I see a few too many crown-based exploits for such an operation. Someone could easily repeat the same level without having to spend energy just by getting kicked each time.
No, I meant, have drops, treasure boxes, monsters, vials, whatever, exactly as they are now. -Only- reset the player position and the buttons. That's why I said it would be tedious - you'd be walking through an already cleared depth for some amount of time. However, the way they do it now allows party leaders to trap a kicked player into a locked room fight or simply trap them without a key to continue as happened to you.
This could easily be deliberately done - might have been in your case for that matter, but I wasn't there to see enough detail to know. You can't, of course, reset the monsters and treasure, and you can't vanish away the monsters from a locked room battle without creating exploits, and the rules for placing keys so the player can't be trapped would be quite complex.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 14:52
#14
The next time this happens
The next time this happens file a support ticket and a GM will come and open the gate for you so you can move on.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 15:04
#15
If I'm the party leader, I
If I'm the party leader, I can kick you whenever I want for any reason. Period. There's no "ethics" of when to kick someone.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 15:10
#16
Wha... !?
If I'm the party leader, I can kick you whenever I want for any reason. Period. There's no "ethics" of when to kick someone.
Sure. That you -can- kick someone for completely frivolous reasons or no reason at all and that it isn't against game rules is true.
That is not the same thing as there being no ethical question. Whether or not it is -right- to do so is another question from whether it is -allowed-. Of course, it's just a game, so it's not a -deep- ethical question, nobody's life is on the line, it's just a question of bullying and unsportsmanlike behavior, or in short, the difference between being a worthless jerkwad and being a decent human being, and various grey areas in-between.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 15:16
#17
But out of courtesy, I warn
But out of courtesy, I warn someone before booting them. I don't care if I'm the party leader and I can abuse my power how I want, but booting just because is just rude.
My sentiments go out to you too, Niramu. The Freezing Vaporizer is what keeps (most) monsters in place and makes chasing after monsters so much easier :/
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 15:22
#18
You're right, you can kick
You're right, you can kick someone anytime you want but it isn't right to kick people at the following times:
* Someone is holding a key or statue because that key/statue will disappear at reload
* While they're standing on an elevator alone because they'll automatically load into the elevator
* At the end of levels because they'll lose all their heat on reload (bug?)
The best time to kick someone is right when they join or at the beginning of a non boss level. Now that "Go Solo" is an option, the best thing to do IMO is to ask them to go solo or split at the elevator (go up instead of going down). There is no reason to just boot someone without warning.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 16:31
#19
I would kick you if...
If you were spending any significant amount of time using a gun when you could have been using a sword, I'd probably kick you. Using a gun when you could be using a sword is like saying "I'll do mediocre DPS with minimal risk, and let you guys take risks, do lots of damage, and essentially carry me".
If you weren't skilled with your bombs, I'd probably kick you. Good bombers will make well timed dives into groups of enemies, taking more risks for large rewards for the team. If you were afraid to get into the thick of things and let your team do all the work, you're a waste of space and deserve the boot.
If you played defensively, rarely got into the thick of things, and let the swordsmen take much more risk than you did, I'd kick you. You'd deserve it.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 17:27
#20
hey aeolian
sup aeolian, freezing bombs can suck for me cuz i use a khorovod and im completely reliant on my knockback to survive, esp against jellies as the freeze trns them into land mines for me O.o
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 17:38
#21
I use Khorovod too and I
I use Khorovod too and I don't mind people freezy bombs. Adjust your tactics to the group, and take a step back from frozen mobs after you swing. =P
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 21:08
#22
Fascinating opinion.
If you played defensively, rarely got into the thick of things, and let the swordsmen take much more risk than you did, I'd kick you. You'd deserve it.
I'm rather surprised you feel that way. I was of the opinion that people who are not dying regularly are not, in fact, causing a problem just by being there. You seem to take the viking opinion of combat, namely, that it is unfair to fight without giving the enemy a chance to fight back. That is exactly what you mean by "take a risk," and it is rather contrary to the opinion of most gunners, as well as most people's intuition.
As far as bombs go, simply running into an enemy or group is impractical in most cases. Planting one is not instantaneous, and getting hit means you have to re-charge your bomb, so unless you have absolutely no lag or amazing timing, it is rather impractical to pull a kamikaze bomb run.
Even still, I feel that most of this reply is off-topic. Moreover, you feel a kick is justified at any time so long as the person disagrees with you about how to play their own character? Or did I mis-understand you?
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 22:19
#23
Unless...
Unless people are basically actively being a problem (not revving downed teammates after the danger is done, lighting allies on fire with fire pots, hitting quicksilvers with shock, or just randomly going AFK with no notice for long periods of time) I will almost never kick someone. I mean, if they drop, that's more heat for me. And I don't do much Tier 3 with randoms because I am not comfortable soloing that with potential added weight. Of course, I usually just solo or play with friends, but when I do create games with free join, I just expect people to be trying, and not causing severe problems. Perfection is not needed, and if I really get sick of playing with people, I'm more likely to just go solo myself than bother kicking others.
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 22:27
#24
@Junkyardfool
U NO TEL ME HOW 2 PLAY GAEM, I FOLO OWN RULES BCUZ I OSSIM N A REGULIR PARSEN DOS NOT GET AGNRY BCUZ SOM1 ELS IS PLAYIGN IT SAEF!
I NVR GO IN2 PAR-T WID U
EVUR
IF U CN NOT D33L WID GUNSLIGNRS N BUMBRS DEN U R NOT TRU SPIREL NITE!
Oh, and one of the things you say that can get you kicked is:
"I has no shield :3"
Jue, 05/26/2011 - 22:48
#25
@xPlad
I take it you agree with Junkyardfool, then? If someone comes ill-equipped, you should boot them rather than let them try and enter combat with you? What about someone who only has fire weapons in a floor where oil slimes and fire monsters happen to be unusually prevalent? Is it acceptable to kick someone who's been helpful thus far because of poor diversity in damage choices?
I also feel the need to comment on your particular choice in linguistics. I understand the desire to disagree with opinions that differ from your own, but treating them with a linguistic pattern commonly associated with limited communication skills is no different a strategy today than it was during the Civil War and Reconstruction periods in United States history. Such linguistic styles were used to paint caricatures of blacks as a completely inferior group. It's insulting to the intelligence of a diverse group of people and fails to further your point. Please be respectful when disagreeing with people.
Vie, 05/27/2011 - 00:11
#26
Ah...this thread is the best
On topic:
Ethically, I am as ok with kicking an afker as I am kicking an incompetent player. ethical stance. Bam.
Off topic:
@ Niramu:
Are you trying to tell me that a wall-o-text is more effective at reinforcing an opinion than short, succinct statements? Linguistics 101: a 46 word sentence doesn't make you sound smarter. It doesn't strengthen an argument. Brevity is the soul of wit my friend.
What did you even say? I was too caught up in the overwhelming pretentiousness of it. The historical reference just sent it over the top into comedic gold territory. I really do thank you for the laugh I needed that.
Vie, 05/27/2011 - 02:42
#27
Two cents.
With the various combat approaches possible in this game, I feel it's a little unethical to boot someone because of their weapon choice.
However, rude behavior, loose cannon antics, rash actions without the consent of the party, and anything that can put the rest of the party directly in harm's way or anything which lowers party morale is ground for kicking, in my opinion.
Kicking just because you want to throw around your power is rather unfair and unreasonable, nor is it good sportsmanship.
We're all human beings with feelings, so I think we should be considerate of each other and make this a pleasant experience for all us.
It is just a game. :)
Vie, 05/27/2011 - 02:44
#28
It's funny because I'm black.
I kick ethnics all the time.
TRY AND ILLEGALLY IMMIGRATE INTO MY PARTY WILL YOU?
Vie, 05/27/2011 - 06:46
#29
Did not even read Thread Starter's post well apparently
- Junkyardfool
If you played defensively, rarely got into the thick of things, and let the swordsmen take much more risk than you did, I'd kick you. You'd deserve it.
Um...
- "let the swordsmen take much more risk"
He was using a freezing bomb, and that SOMEHOW brings swordsmen much more risk?
LOL, never hit backside of enemies much?
Vie, 05/27/2011 - 07:11
#30
@Volebamus
Niramu has stated he is a gunner/bomber, even going so far as to include "not really DPSing the way the swordies were" in his original post. We know he was using a freezy. In the entire post before that line, which apparently you did not read, Junk was giving opinions on bombers who are not taking risks unto themselves for the greater benefit of the team; this is accomplished by diving right into the middle of swarm of mobs to set the bomb and then ducking out hopefully unscathed, as a skilled bomber should. While this is easy with a 5* bomb, the OP has stated that he was using a freezy MK1. You can imagine, Volebamus, with your obvious expertise, that a small radius haze is practically worthless unless you utilize the aforementioned technique. This in turn would bring swordsmen more risk as you now are taking on buffed mobs for 4 players, and having 3 players to deal with them. Please understand the post before commenting.
@Niramu
I have a different outlook on parties- I believe in character of the player more than his ability. Besides, and not to sound arrogant, I am good enough to carry an entire team of newbies from 9-17. Newbies defined here as players who are only in full 2* gear. Team spirit and fun is my priority for people I enjoy playing with; people with bad attitudes get the boot.
It should also be noted that this only applies to T2. In T3, I have to put an emphasis on skill and lower leveled players who just aren't up to scratch will be asked to leave at the terminal, or get booted at 24.
Vie, 05/27/2011 - 09:36
#31
Nothing new to say really
- aeolianmode
*Insert longwindedness about 3* freeze bomb being risky here*
Yeah, you sure are saying a lot of nothing that Junk didn't already say. The whole thing is that 3* Freeze Bomb's radius is more than enough to be useful for a swordsman. If you play a swordsman right, you don't just rush in hoping for the best, but try to find a way to minimize damage even though the enemy's counter-attack can hurt you.
A 3* freeze bomb that someone else is setting off is more that enough to take advantage of that type of strategy. Unless he was using the freeze bomb in a random corner somewhere, luring enemies into the freeze bomb radius makes things convenient for sword-users, and it barely requires any effort.
Vie, 05/27/2011 - 12:12
#32
Off-topic
I suspect we are drifting away from the original question. While I recognize that some amount of drift is natural, please try to stay on-topic. I further suspect that we have gotten almost as much from the question posed as we will get. If that is the case I intend to ask that this thread be locked to keep it from becoming a simple flame war.
Vie, 05/27/2011 - 12:19
#33
@Volebamus
He was using a 2* bomb. Nice to know you didn't read any of anyone's post, and are just asserting your own opinion with disregard to any sensible discussion à la Rush Limbaugh. Not that you had any to begin with, but I dare say you have no creditability with anyone anymore.
Vie, 05/27/2011 - 13:47
#34
Oh yeah, my bad, but now I'm like Rush Limbaugh? LOL
- aeolianmode
He was using a 2* bomb. Nice to know you didn't read any of anyone's post, and are just asserting your own opinion with disregard to any sensible discussion à la Rush Limbaugh. Not that you had any to begin with, but I dare say you have no creditability with anyone anymore.
Genuinely my bad, OP's post said Freezing Vaporizer MK 1, misread it for MK 2. Though in my defense, it's official name is never mentioned as MK 1, so that threw me off.
Regard to your "attack", I fail to see how credible you are. I checked your forum post, you haven't mentioned any "progress" of yours anywhere. I'm pretty aware of what I've picked up from the month I've been playing, though it might not be as long compared to others like beta players. So if you're gonna attack me based on a misread, feel free. Not that you have any "history" in this game as far as I can see.
Dom, 05/29/2011 - 01:47
#35
Off topic: Junkyardfool is
Off topic: Junkyardfool is definitely my favorite person on these forums.
On topic: It's really hard to make a decision. The party leader probably shouldn't have kicked you assuming the bombs were used correctly. The fact that it was a low radius bomb means it really just isn't that effective, tbh, and outside of some situations with spawning mobs, it isn't even worth using. Saying only swords all the time is silly, though, and bombs can be quite useful in team play. If someone was running around using 2* bombs on every monster that spawned, then telling them just to use the cutter all the time is probably justified and kicking them if they don't is probably justified. If they were using the right weapon at the right time, then no.
Dom, 05/29/2011 - 02:40
#36
For kicking ethics I have to
For kicking ethics I have to say that it's up to the party leader. Because of their position they get to decide when and why to kick someone. We can hope when it happens, it's for a good reason. As for how to kick, I believe the leader should announce the kick at which point all party members drop what they're holding until the kick has taken place. Allow 10 to 15 seconds for this process and everything should be smooth. Though if you want to make things easier for the person being kicked, like say holding a totem that's swell.
Not wanting to be confrontational, but freezing vaporisers can be a pain in the ass in the hands of someone that uses them indiscriminately. Almost as bad as blast bombs. You sure you were positioning your bombs for maximal advantage?