So here I am!
I bring the news that as long as you don't trash where you live now, you are already in heaven, as what is life without hardships?
:)
So here I am!
I bring the news that as long as you don't trash where you live now, you are already in heaven, as what is life without hardships?
:)
@Thinslayer if it is contrary to your religion just don't bother with it.
@Contri The Magic Pony BOY YOU GOT SWAG
What does Scripture have to say about that? Does God support the solution you just proposed? I'm not implying that he doesn't; I'm challenging you to be a good Christian. Find out what the Bible actually says.
"Stone disobedient children" (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
"Only women who have children will be spared hell Timothy 2:15
"Men are worth more than women" - Leviticus 27:1-7
"Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted [sic] , brokenhanded [sic], Or crookbackt [sic], or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God." (Leviticus 21:17-21)
Men aren't allowed to trim their beards or shave their heads (Leviticus 21:5)
Wearing clothes intended for the opposite sex is forbidden (presumably making today's unisex clothing 'abonimable'):
"Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee" (Leviticus 19:19). Is that T-shirt you're wearing?
That's a start. /thumbs up
Deuteronomy 21:18 - "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them..."
^You missed that VERY important qualification.
1 Timothy 2:15 - "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."
^You picked a verse that's notoriously difficult to interpret. That said, you drew more from the verse than it actually says. It doesn't say that women with children will be spared hell; it only says that 'she shall be saved in childbearing.' Not because of it, not through it, but IN it. As in, the childbearing occurs simultaneously, not that it is the instrument of salvation.
Leviticus 27:2
^Men are not worth more than women; women are cheaper than men. In other words, it's not a pleasant thing that men have to pay more to be dedicated to God. Women have it easy.
Leviticus 21:17-21
^I don't see your problem with it. God's standards for the priesthood were very high. He only accepts the best, most perfect offerings. He didn't accept blemished animals as sacrifices, for example.
Leviticus 21:1 - "And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people."
^You took it out of context. 21:1 specifies the audience to be the Levite priests, not all men.
Deuteronomy 22:5 - "A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God."
^Exactly. Your problem?
Leviticus 19:19
^That verse requires more study on my part, but tentatively, I don't think it applies anymore. It was intended to symbolize Israel's unique, set-apart nature, but God has since disowned Israel, so it is probably irrelevant now.
The bible was written THOUSANDS of years ago... it is riddled with confusing metaphors metaphors. Jesus said: Love thy neighbour, not hate on them for creating a fake religion and persecuting them.
Lots of things were written thousands of years ago. That doesn't make the Bible untrue or irrelevant. It was written by God himself, with men as his pencils, so the Bible pretty darn well knows what it's talking about. If you find it confusing, then pray that God open your eyes, because that's your problem, not the Bible's.
Also, you're misrepresenting me, and I really don't appreciate it. I'm not "hating" on anyone. And the Bible says that "love is the keeping of the law;" so loving your neighbor means not making fake religions that are not only morally questionable, but may cause others to break the law.
In short, this fake religion is itself a form of hatred.
Now Thin, I truly don't want to offend you, but there's about as much proof for the existence of an all-mighty divine being as there is, say, a flying spaghetti monster who created the universe.
For example, let's say that the Christian God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent. Then why would such a deity allow those millions of innocent children, those less than a year old, those suffering from poverty, to die, when they were guilty of no fault themselves? It's hard for us to rationalize letting a 3 month old baby die because 'he deserved it'.
But this is all another thread, so could we go back to the omnipotent pony?
I tend to disagree, Sandwich but let's get back to the pony.
ADD ME TO THE PONY LIST, MAN!
At first glance, yes, I agree. Let's look at it this way, if you will...
The Painting:
Lets say your walking through a museum and see a painting. It's a beautiful piece of art and there is no doubt it was draw by a skillful artist. But when you look for who painted it, you can't find any name, any title, nothing. Do you then assume that the image was made by dumping paint on a piece of paper? Or that it was simply there for ever and ever? Or that it was made by thousands of different artists, which ever one was your favorite?
The point is, someone had to make this world. THAT is sense.
Also, sin is an important topic which you have brought up. Death and sin wouldn't be here if it wasn't for us. God made us with the choice to commit evil, sin, or to follow him. Naturally, the first humans, Adam and Eve, sinned and brought death and all evil into the world. So, still saying if or isn't God could be perfect, would he be perfect if he made us into slaves that worshiped him? No. Which is why we had, and still do have, the choice.
Um, I agree with both but can we PUH-LEASE get back to the ponies?
The point is, someone had to make this world. THAT is sense.
Actually, the Universe is so large, it was actually against the odds for a sentient life species to not exist somewhere within it. And it's expanding all the time.
Also, sin is an important topic which you have brought up. Death and sin wouldn't be here if it wasn't for us. God made us with the choice to commit evil, sin, or to follow him. Naturally, the first humans, Adam and Eve, sinned and brought death and all evil into the world. So, still saying if or isn't God could be perfect, would he be perfect if he made us into slaves that worshiped him? No. Which is why we had, and still do have, the choice.
And that justifies little crime-free newborns whose alleged alpha ancestors did something wrong being burned alive because...
And all shall worship Contri, and those who dare to speak against shall find themselves nearly instantly in the locker room once more, dead in a flash for being a noob.
Response to this post.
"For example, let's say that the Christian God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent. Then why would such a deity allow those millions of innocent children, those less than a year old, those suffering from poverty, to die, when they were guilty of no fault themselves? It's hard for us to rationalize letting a 3 month old baby die because 'he deserved it'."
Let's break that down phrase by phrase.
*Why would such a deity allow...
-"Allow?" No, "cause" is a better word.
*...millions of innocent...
-Nobody is innocent. Romans 3:23 says, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
*...children, those less than a year old, those suffering from poverty...
-Age and poverty have no bearing on their guilt. Have you ever heard of the "terrible two's?" Yeah. Their sinful behaviors didn't pop out of nowhere.
*...to die, when they were guilty of no fault themselves?
-Invalid assumption. They are guilty of the sin of unbelief.
*It's hard for us to rationalize letting a 3 month old baby die because 'he deserved it'.
-I'll grant you that. It's hard to rationalize that. But rationalize it you must, because it's the truth.
Nobody's asking you to like what's going on in this thread, but at least have the decency to leave it and let people be instead of turning it into another pointless religious debate.
Decency?
Pointless?
What are you going on about? As far as I know, everyone's being decent here. Nobody's calling each other names or getting angry. And frankly, there's nothing pointless about religious debate. Religion affects everyone's lives, even if you hate it and want nothing to do with it. The world's deadliest wars have arisen over spiritual matters, including the Civil War and World War II. The Crusades were explicitly fought over religion. The War on Terror exists because of religion. There is nothing pointless about it.
Now, there is something to be said for its controversial nature, but you haven't exactly objected to that.
Thin, you're method of "evangelizing" is not going to work with this community. Defending the faith is working so far.
I'm not intending to evangelize. If I were, my words would be decidedly...different. Not necessarily cheerier or any less morbid, but different. Right now, my goals are as follows:
*To convince this crowd that we should even be having this debate at all.
*To demonstrate the folly of fake religions.
*To defend the internal consistency of Scripture.
Pointless as in it won't go anywhere. I'm not here to challenge your beliefs or undermine your authority, but you're preaching god and quoting the bible in a fake religious thread tucked in the treasure vault of a spiral knights forum, do you really expect to go anywhere with it?
Decency as in you've completely derailed the thread and turned it into one full of bible verses.
You want to make your debate relevant and show people the gravity of your discussion? Fine, find a more appropriate place to do it and let the OP and everyone else do what they want with the thread THEY started. Like I said you don't have to like what's going on here, but at least have the decency to let things and leave people be.
I intentionally derailed the thread. Go back to page 1; that was the point of this post. I derailed it because of the thread's topic.
I'm not convinced that this thread won't go anywhere. If nothing else, we'll all know more about ourselves and our fellow players. At best, we'll learn the true nature of Christianity, most notably the tenets discussed here.
@Sandwich Then let's go back to square one if we can't agree on the world being made by God, or a god. Let's think about it this way... How did the universe begin if not by intelligent design? I'm gonna be honest; I wasn't there, I can present no solid, rock-hard prove that God made the world. However, you can't present anything otherwise. Believe me, I'd be willing to listen, but as none of us were there, how can we say for sure what happened? In the end, any thoughts about how the world began take faith, i.e., you must be willing to BELIEVE, with no facts, that the world started how it started.
@Sir-Wuddle You'll think this sounds insane, crazy, and might even make you angry, but the point of derailing this thread was in the name of decency. Thin, and I, saw someone insulting our God, and wished to stop it.
@Malakalack ... good luck with that.
I understand you guys are just standing up for what you think is right. But this isn't your forum and neither is it a forum for god. This is a gaming forum with a myriad of other players each with thier own beliefs and opinions; and the fact that you guys feel that your self righteousness justifies you to trample over others and stop what you will is unnacceptable. I'm not saying you guys are wrong, but find a more appropriate, constructive, and DECENT way to get your point across without disrupting the forum and the community.
TL;DR
Derailing the thread for god is bad because derailing threads is bad period. Religion and Religious debates don't get any special treatment.
You keep talking about "decency" as if we don't have it. Problem is, that's part of what we're disagreeing on.
*"But this isn't your forum and neither is it a forum for god. This is a gaming forum with a myriad of other players each with their own beliefs and opinions."
-True.
*"...and the fact that you guys feel that your self righteousness..."
-Self-righteous? How are we self-righteous? Prove it! First off, let's get our definitions straight.
*"...justifies you to trample over others and stop what you will is unnacceptable"
-Trample, huh? Defending a friend is trampling over people? If your friend is getting beaten up, and if you run over to stop it, are you trampling over people? Maybe so! But you're implying that this is a bad thing. People are trampling over my God. Maybe you don't see it as a big deal, but it's very narrow-minded to assume that everyone should agree with that.
*"I'm not saying you guys are wrong..."
-Yes you are. At least be honest with us, okay? I don't mind you claiming that we're wrong, just so long as you're willing to back it up.
*"...but find a more appropriate, constructive, and DECENT way to get your point across without disrupting the forum and the community."
-So everyone can just run over my God willy-nilly, insult him, make up stupid religions, and hurt us any way they like, but heaven forbid we step in and try to stop it? That's what you're telling us to do. I will NOT oblige you.
Since you're throwing the word "decent" around, how about you tell everyone else to be "decent" and not "trample" over religious folks? Aren't we just as deserving of "decency" as everyone else?
First off:
Making a fake religion thread for fun =/= getting beaten up by a bully. It doesn't mean you're beating up a bully, and it certainly isn't serious enough to require intervention. It's just a thread for fun.
Trampling as in: "Hold the phone! This thread goes against my beliefs, hence it must stop!"
You might be defending god, but you are trampling over other people to get your point across.
That in it's own right is pretty unacceptable and the point I'm trying to make. Out of context derailing a thread is always bad, God doesn't make it right, the end certainly doesn't justify the means, not in this case.
Second off:
I'm not saying you're wrong. Again I'm not here to challenge your beliefs or undermine your authority. What you believe in is your business and not my beef, what is my problem is how you've gone about expressing it. I am NOT here to discuss God and I'm NOT here to talk for or against religion, I DON'T plan on trying to lay my beliefs on you nor do I plan on discussing yours. I'm saying (how many times must i repeat this?) find a better way of expressing your opinion.
"So everyone can just run over my God willy-nilly, insult him, make up stupid religions, and hurt us any way they like, but heaven forbid we step in and try to stop it? That's what you're telling us to do. I will NOT oblige you."
Look, I get that this goes against God, i get that it might be inappropriate and that you won't just sit down and have your beliefs be strewn and thrown about in the name of fun. But i doubt the OP of this thread or any of the participants did this just to spite your God. I'm not saying you have to stop standing up for what you believe, I'm saying find a better way of doing it.
And please don't go attacking other threads and then turn around and play the victim card, it doesn't work like that.
I respect that you voiced your opinion, that you were clear and concise about just what was wrong; what I don't respect was that this wasn't your thread to stop, it isn't your forum and you don't have the authority to go shutting down everything that doesn't agree with you. Alert a mod or wait for it to die, pm the OP or just ignore it, any of those options would be more constructive than cutting off the thread like you did and filling it with bible versus.
Need another TL;DR?
I'm arguing against your method not your motive; If we're still at odds after this you can, at the very least, do this outisde the treasure vault, it doesn't belong here.
I did not mean that comment that way. My point was this; this thread has become something else, and I highly doubt that, sans a new thread, this "Contrinism" will continue. Which I think is good. I do not mean, "Haha, so long, loser! We won and you lost!" No. I meant, I do not think that is possible, and I do think that is good.
*People shouldn't be making fake religion threads for fun. That was the initial problem that spawned this whole mess. False religions, even fake ones, present a very real danger. By that, I mean literal danger to physical life and limb. God kills people over this kind of thing. Put yourself in my shoes; should I just sit by and let people "play with fire?"
*"And please don't go attacking other threads and then turn around and play the victim card, it doesn't work like that."
-Yes it does. It's simple, really; this thread attacks me, I strike back. Just because I launched an attack doesn't mean that I'm the attacker. The OP, the person who started this thread, is the attacker. Therefore, I am allowed to play the victim card.
Final question: where do you propose we discuss these kinds of things? Normal people talk about topics in the same place they were introduced. Not-so-normal people introduce topics in one forum and discuss them in another.
Let's say God created the Universe. Who created God?
And all shall cry out Contri's token song, when the glorious hoofed lord returns.
Young Contri-the-Pony is a merry fellow.
Bright red his weapon is, and his heart is mellow.
@ The delicious being up there^
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are . (Psalm 90:2)
Mind you, there are approximately 40,000 Christian denominations (Obviously not an exact number) ranging from Catholics to Spiritual Baptists. So obviously not everyone who identifies themselves as a 'Christian' believe the same thing as the next one.
God is always there. Was always there. He is the alpha and the omega; the beginning and the end.
Those who reject the Creator not only have to believe that matter came into being without any cause; they also have to believe that life itself popped into existence without an adequate cause.
Even the simplest single-celled life is stupendously complex. A humble bacterium is full of incredibly sophisticated nano-machines that it needs to live. A cell needs a minimum of over 400 different proteins to make the machines that are absolutely essential for life. How could these protein-based machines make themselves, even if all the right ingredients (20 different amino acids, but many of each) could make themselves? The amino acids, often thousands of them, have to be joined together in the correct order for each protein to function.
@ Sir-Wuddle What is the point of this topic not coming up? To my understanding this thread isn't bothering the community. It is confined to this thread, and if you choose to read the discussion, then that is your choice. The community is not forced to read this, so why make a big deal out of it actually happening?
Now, I'm not Thinslayer. I can't write like he does, but I do hope I got my point acrossed and that we can continue this discussion whilst maintaining the forum rules.
@ Valorai, Thinslayer, Tedme
To be totally honest, we just want to be left in peace. Please stop harrassing us with your religious belief. I agree with you, but everyone is entitled to their own religion, without you trying to convert them. This is not a real religion, so just go away! PLEASE
"I agree with you, but everyone is entitled to their own religion, without you trying to convert them. This is not a real religion, so just go away!"
I would like to quote Thinslayer:
"I'm not intending to evangelize. If I were, my words would be decidedly...different. Not necessarily cheerier or any less morbid, but different. Right now, my goals are as follows:
*To convince this crowd that we should even be having this debate at all.
*To demonstrate the folly of fake religions.
*To defend the internal consistency of Scripture."
I have to agree with Malkalack. The OP is only responsible for what he created, and not how you interpret it. I'm absolutely certain this wasn't created on the basis of harming you or your belief, and the fact that that's the way you took it is not their fault or their problem. Leave them alone, let them have their fun. No one asked you to "save" them, and no one in here is doing this with malevolent intent, you are the perpetrator of your own attack.
What you find as a mortal sin is not viewed that way by everyone, what you're doing here is, in fact, evangelizing in that you're pushing these people into behaving by a set of rules that are only obeyed by your exclusive religion. Not everyone is Christian. Not everyone thinks this is as dangerous as you say it is. If you wanna make a religious debate topic, make a new topic somewhere relevant, like Gremlin Chatter. People see the title of the thread as fun, and only come to see you derailing the thing into a religious debate topic, it's not fair to the OP.
If you don't like it, fine. Top left of your browser, there's a back button. Top right, there's the X-out. No one is forcing you to stay and witness this, you can't control the actions of others, only how you react to things. There's been a lot of bad blood in the Treasure Vault as of late, let's keep as much conflict as we can out of the most welcoming section of the SK forums, ya? :D
ENOUGH. Alll of you people who are persecuting this thread, I challenge you to take a look back at the first posts.
See how happy it was before you came?
EXACTLY.
All hail Contri! Ponies rise again.
Obliterating everything not worshipin'.
No sword can bring him down.
Nothing can stop him now.
When there's nothing left to do, he wins.
"Give swords to me." All hail Contri!
"I need CE." All hail Contri!
Play LD and then you will see-ee
The winner is Contri. Quick-rev is weak.
It's never over, just another day.
No matter what you seek,
Contri comes, up, stands up, to say:
"Ponies are the only success
Because no one else wins
I am the best!"
All hail Contri! Ponies rise again.
Obliterating everything not worshipin'.
No sword can bring him down.
Nothing can stop him now.
When there's nothing left to do, he wins.
"Give swords to me." All hail Contri!
"I need CE." All hail Contri!
Somewhere in SK we all LD spam.
Our falling players are the ones left to wham.
Swords are guns and guns are bombs.
Everyone must kill the zombs!
Nothing ever brings joy
Except for Contri.
"Ponies are the only success
Because no one else wins
I am the best!"
All hail Contri! Ponies rise again.
Obliterating everything not worshippin'.
No sword can bring him down.
Nothing can stop him now.
When there's nothing left to do, he wins.
All hail Contri! Ponies rise again.
Obliterating everything not worshipin'.
No sword can bring him down.
Nothing can stop him now.
When there's nothing left to do, he wins.
"Give swords to me." All hail Contri!
"I need CE." All hail Contri!
Response to this post.
Welp, it seems the thread got moved to Gremlin Chatter anyways.
*"I'm absolutely certain this wasn't created on the basis of harming you or your belief..."
-Me too! I'm just as absolutely certain of that as you are. But that's not the point, you see. He's hurting God, even if it's unintentional.
*"What you find as a mortal sin is not viewed that way by everyone...you're pushing these people into behaving by...your exclusive religion."
-In other words, you expect me to set aside the fact that my beliefs are TRUE and pretend that all other views have equal standing. I sometimes do that for the sake of argument, but it's naive to expect me to practice or believe that.
*"Not everyone thinks this is as dangerous as you say it is."
-Don't care. Not everyone thinks shooting guns is as dangerous as we say it is. Not everyone thinks skydiving is as dangerous as we say it is. Does that change its inherent danger? I don't need people to believe me in order for me to be right.
At this point, we have answered every question. I see nothing that we have failed to, and though I'm still willing to say more....
Also, I for one am well aware that this thread was not meant to insult us. However, I had to change the name of a thread because it was offensive to many people. I accidentally did it, no joke, but it was insisted that I change the name. Same thing is happening here. This thread was meant as something fun and probably amusing. I find, however, that it is fun at the expense of our God.
Ignorance is not bliss; it harms you and your friends, and even others you don't know.
@Thin
-In other words, you expect me to set aside the fact that my beliefs are TRUE and pretend that all other views have equal standing. I sometimes do that for the sake of argument, but it's naive to expect me to practice or believe that.
That is what they want, and while we shouldn't compromise our beliefs, we should allow each man his choice of belief. If we did not, how could we respect a God who did? Simply my opinion.
Note: Not saying I believe they are right, but I do not believe we should not respect it. If I offend their religion, I'd be willing to stop and remove the problem.
I would far rather be hated then leave people insult my God. Which is what this thread was doing. (about the end of your comment)
Being a party pooper just makes your religion look worse.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go buy some confetti so I can throw your God a surprise party. He seems like a rather sad individual who could use a smile. Anyone know what else he'd like? You know, other than exterminating animal races that he created perfect in the first place? Some balloons maybe?
@Tedme: I agree, we should allow each man his choice of belief, since, according to Ephesians 2:8-9, "by grace are we saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Only God can save. Hence, our job is simply to spread the word and let the Spirit take its course. Even if we're not evangelizing, it's important for us (and myself in particular) to keep in mind that the work of changing minds is God's domain.
@Fangel: You know, we were just about to drop the subject...
Thats just plain offensive. You can be an atheist for all I care, but atheists aren't required to hate other religions.
But neither were you.
I'm only going to be on this thread for a short time. Take my words with a grain of salt.
If my party doesn't go all that great, at least I tried. Last time I checked parties weren't offensive.
@Fangel If you want to bash on religion then make a "Do you believe in God" thread. It really doesn't help that you're dredging up arguments and posting things that neither belong here nor are they relevant. And I really can't say anything more to Thin because it all just boils down to personal preference, so I'd much rather have the subject dropped |:^{
I mean, I'll have all this confetti.
(And this is in gremlin chatter now, so it's bound to receive some... Spontaneous responses)
I think it was high time the discussion ended anyways. I could see a little anger and frustration simmering on both sides. It's unfortunate that many religious discussions result in such emotions, but there's no denying that people are often passionate about what they believe, and it's hard to keep one's passions in check. I, for one, found it remarkable that our debate did not spiral down into name-calling and cussing, which is way too common nowadays. I tip my hat (or Chapeau, as it were) to you all.
I don't worship Contri
I worship Sam the Tightwad
It says it's from All Hail Shadow. Look it up, I don't want to put up broken links.
And Contri rode in on Contri-the-Pony to the Coliseum, Polaris in hand. He zapped the noobs, but they were so far-gone into noobiness, that their flesh fried. A Polaris spammer tried to shoot him, and he was turned into a pillar of Rock Salt. Contri hopped off the pony, and began to zap the spammers. Contri then demolished all who used Auto-Aim in a fiery explosion. Then he called upon his pal vanaduke and they destroyed all the noobs.
thou Contri the pony is very stinky
Galatians 1:8-9, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."