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Give Monsters a slight boost of 'Moderate' defense against Specialized damage?

9 replies [Last post]
Tue, 05/06/2014 - 18:56
Whimsicality's picture
Whimsicality

tl;dr: Make monsters slightly resist the specialized (meaning, not Normal) damage they are 'Moderate' against. As such, it would make Acheron's basic attack less effective than Flourish on Beasts.

After some thought, and browsing through the helpful wiki page, I've had this brilliantly dumb idea.
According to this page, a Monster has 3 classes of Defense: Weak, Moderate, and Strong. So this would mean an Undead is Weak to Elemental, Moderate to Piercing and Normal, and Strong against Shadow.

Flavor text from various NPC Knights emphasize expanding your arsenal so you're able to bring the right tool for the right job, and if you don't have the right tool, the next-best thing would be Normal damage instead of Specialized damage. Of course, as the game currently stands, this isn't the case. Under the current mechanics, I could more effectively wipe out a Slime with a Divine Avenger than I could with a Triglav. A Zombie is no match for a Blitz to the face instead of a Pepperbox. And of course, Wolvers are dropping like flies to Shadow weaponry.

Why not add another stage of defense in the middle ground between Moderate, and Strong defense? For example the same Beast from before would be: Weak to Piercing, Moderate to Normal, Resistant to Shadow, and Strong against Elemental. So, suppose a Beast has 65 base defense (going with what the wiki is saying.) This Beast would have 130 Normal Defense, 65 Piercing Defense, greater than 130 Shadow Defense, and a larger sum of Elemental defense. Giving monsters a boost of defense (no matter how small) of the Specialized damage they are currently 'Moderate' against wouldn't affect gameplay too heavily... Or would it?

How about the first swing of Acheron VS the first swing of Final Flourish against Beasts? Yes, it always comes back to 'nerf Acheron' doesn't it?

Wed, 05/07/2014 - 23:57
#1
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

Acheron does more damage to beasts than Final Flourish or Obsidian Edge on its regular attack because Acheron gets some sort of invisible damage boost for its regular attack because it's charge doesn't have a status.

Fix that first.

But otherwise, this is a good idea. It might completely muck up the damage feedback and make all specialized damage that isn't doing optimal damage, grey. though.

Thu, 05/08/2014 - 01:54
#2
Tsubasa-No-Me's picture
Tsubasa-No-Me
Yes Please!

This would be wonderful.

Fri, 05/09/2014 - 17:28
#3
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I think this would make normal damage too strong compared to specialized damage. Using acheron as a metric is wrong, as it is an outlier already. Using blitz + pepperbox is equally wrong when discussing slags, when zombies are usually weak to fire except for this time. A better example would be argent peacemaker, before and after it was changed.

Before: (When it was piercing/elemental)
Undead/Fiends: Good
Beasts/Construct: Poor = "resistant"
Gremlins/Slimes: Awful

Currently: (Pure elemental)
Undead/Construct: Good
Slimes/Fiends: Decent = normal damage
Gremlins/Beasts: Awful

This was problematic, because it was truly narrow to use-- if I brought it to an undead/construct area, I'd be at a tremendous loss against constructs, so I couldn't do that. In fact, the only permutation of themes it was acceptable for were pure undead, pure fiend, and mixed undead/fiend. Everywhere outside of.. well, FSC, it was useless. Making it less than normal completely killed it, and you can look up all the old threads from the few months after the game's release which detail exactly what was up with sentenza and argent peacemaker.

What you're suggesting is really that we make weapons only useful for what they're specifically good against. People often call normal weapons "underwhelming" as they compare them to specialized damage, and you want all weapons to be less than "underwhelming" unless they're up against their target monster class. This limits gear and options for all things more than you think it does, and forces players to craft things not of their own volition, but because the game requires them to do so to progress.

If anything, dual normal+shadow/elemental/piercing weapons should be removed altogether and replaced with pure damage equivalents. In the hands of an expert, normal damage weapons are just as strong if not stronger than specialized versions of themselves due to the abundance of damage buffs present throughout the game.

This is because of how defense is calculated via subtraction, which causes a static difference that presents itself as follows:

(Base damage)*(damage buffs) - (Resistance) = (Actual Damage)

So if I have 2 leviathan blades, one specialized and one normal, then they'll receive the same benefits from being buffed... except it gets better. EDIT: I meant to say that sub par damage is brought up by a bit, not the other way around.

Fri, 05/09/2014 - 14:06
#4
Dandi's picture
Dandi
Fehzon, the calculations for

Fehzon, the calculations for the damage are way more complicated.

Let's show some imaginary numbers here.

Lets supose you encounter four enemies, all with different resistances, on stratum 3. If your weapon causes 100 damage:

Weak defense would do 73 damage, normal resistance around 47 damage, and through my experience, for high defence you would have something around 13 damage, maybe more.

That sums 180.

Now, if you use normal damage, you would end up with 188 damage.

It may seem that this is a plus, and it used to be. However now we can change equips at every level. The point is, now that we can change our equipments , there is no good reason to carry normal damage anymore.

The thought behind the neutral set, is that you are prepared to any situation. But now you just get three weapons and change them every level, or even unlock a slot and carry three weapons. Why would you even have neutral weapons at all?

I don't know if you noticed, but people make fun of Cobalt set, Iron Slut and Leviathan. That's now how it's supposed to be.

Fri, 05/09/2014 - 15:43
#5
Skepticraven's picture
Skepticraven
↓

Increasing moderate defense would murder pure damage weapons. Think AP stunk against fiends already?

The problem lies within the normal component of the split damage weapons. This part, in my opinion, is what should get the nerf.

@Fehzor
We aren't sure about the subtraction aspect yet - it appears as subtraction. Someone in one of my analysis threads suggested that it is a multiplier that can simplify to the mere subtraction when damage is greater than armor. I have a feeling that with the right numbers, it may follow the form of a hill equation.

That being said, Acheron's normal damage fits the "edge of the linear range" criteria at +0, while other brandishes are not until about +5.

Fri, 05/09/2014 - 15:47
#6
Dogrock's picture
Dogrock
Gather round for a bit of what I just learned is lost history!

Whimsicality, your idea of low and high resist and normal being the only neutral damage type was actually the first incarnation of the current monster defenses back before launch in 2011.

So why did it change to the current state? At that time it made the game too hard for most players. The expanded variety of weapons and the Arsenal stations didn't exist back then. So not only were you limited in your initial choices, you had to pick weapons that would be effective for 3+ consecutive floors of gates. The gate system and monster spawns per floor also hadn't been refined as it is now. Also damage bonuses weren't as readily available. So it was a bit of guesswork that turned things into a real slog if you got guessed wrong. Basically in the scope of the game at that time it moved too far away from fun. It also made the original incarnation of double specialty damage weapons pretty darn useless.

Fast-forward to now and this is one of the concepts that I think could be successfully re-introduced into the game. You could even leave it out of easy mode for the sake of keeping the game accessible to all types of players. We have the ability to swap gear per floor and most floors are predictable to two monster family types (and even documented these days in the wiki). Those already carrying normal damage weapons into battle will be relatively unaffected, but for those with focused weapons there would likely be more emphasis on leveraging status attacks against low resistance monsters. Very few normal weapons beyond the beginner gear offer status attacks outside of stun. Perhaps it might also be worth while having a look at how much damage status does now and how much it needs to offer worthwhile effects compared to whacking something with a sword again.

Fri, 05/09/2014 - 17:28
#7
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

No, the calculations are exactly that. I think I did get part of it wrong though, where I said that the defense values increase to net it in. I'll fix my post in a bit, I was a bit hasty making it but I still captured the intent and my point still stands.

First, read this--
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Defense

Second--
I would like to show this chart from Zeddy:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkB_kx1fvrxadGpGN18xQ09xMDZ...

Specifically, the box titled "Flourish Finish/Suda Slam"-- two attacks that do the same damage, one normal and one specialized.

Without buffing this, we see that:
Base Damage: 504
VS a "weak" enemy: 443
VS a "neutral" enemy: 382

At maximum damage increase, we see that:
Base Damage: 625
VS a "weak" enemy: 564
VS a "neutral" enemy: 503

If you will, the difference between these two numbers is as follows:
443 - 382 = 61
564-503 = 61

Which shows us that the following percentages apply to net increase when increasing net bonus:

Base: 24%
Weak: 27.3%
Neutral: 31.6%

Therefore, normal damage in this case increased 4.3% more than specialized damage. The same holds true for ALL forms of normal damage and ALL forms of damage bonuses-- including those from battle sprites and orb drops. Further, attacks below a certain threshold benefit more than what the defense article calls "Large attacks".

Dread Venom Striker VS Sudaruska:

Total Combo Damage, no damage bonus-
DVS: 881
Suda: 528

Total Combo Damage, MAX damage bonus-
DVS: 1318
Suda: 714

Percentage Change:
DVS: 49.6%
Suda: 35.2%

Now imagine that you've got that buff going on, and then you stumble across an attack orb.. or use maskeraith's deadly shadow cloak. This works for ALL multi-hitting weapons, not just DVS, however weapons with normal damage will get even more of a boost over weapons with specialized damage.

All of the above for blitz charges:
No buff: 3435
Max Damage: 4470
Percentage increase: 30%

As you can see, sudaruska STILL scales better than blitz needle in terms of potential from damage increases. Even if it will always trail behind, damage increases combined with almost universal effectiveness will make neutral damage a force to be taken seriously.

Wed, 05/14/2014 - 11:40
#8
Tsubasa-No-Me's picture
Tsubasa-No-Me
Wait, so what you're saying is...

Normal Damage Currently Scales Better than Special Damage?

If so, then That could be Screwy when using Split Damages. Tone down the amount of Normal Damage in split weapons?

Sidenote, It seems that you're comparing the Damages of DVS and Suda. I think it might be better to compare the DPS as well, If only to assure that the Increases are +%Damage, instead of +%DPS.

Wed, 05/14/2014 - 14:39
#9
Dandi's picture
Dandi
Fehzor, i've read everything,

Fehzor, i've read everything, thanks for sharing knowledge [no sarcasm intended].
Some parts i didn't follow so i'll assume you are right.

I assume your current weapon set consists os Valiance and Leviathan, since it's so worth it.
If not, then i think you ignored the last part of my post.

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