Or failing that (because I can see this being kind of powerful) make another line that does just this, because it would be cool. Maybe even give this to the plate series.
Make vitasuit deluxe provide the user with a 2nd emergency revive
mer, 05/07/2014 - 22:09
jeu, 05/08/2014 - 01:07
#2
This actually seems a lot cooler than any suggestion I've seen for it. How will it work for the original Vitasuit though exactly?
Either way, I greatly support this: +1
jeu, 05/08/2014 - 19:56
#3
+1
Any option to make people choose armor besides the usual is fine with me.
jeu, 05/08/2014 - 21:53
#4
I think all the vitasuits could do this.
I honestly wouldn't consider using one above anything else in T3, purely because 0/1* armor provides next to no defense there.
ven, 05/09/2014 - 06:54
#5
↓
-1
Vitasuit deluxe gives -1 hp compared to ancient plate, +2 compared to 5* armor, and +3 compared to 4* armor.
It is a 4* armor beating the health boost for almost all 5* armor. It does not need a buff.
ven, 05/09/2014 - 12:08
#6
It could be a second line.
It could be a second line. Instead of giving health bonuses, it just gives another revive.
ven, 05/09/2014 - 12:23
#7
@Skeptic:
But how often do the 2 pips come in play? A hit from the weakest monster in Tier 3 takes out several pips, plus it has mediocre defense.
ven, 05/09/2014 - 15:20
#8
Yes, I realize this might require a bit more than just slapping it on there. Bumping it up to 5* to increase the costs and usefulness as it scales into the lategame would be one way of making this more viable.
As for the balance argument-- if people aren't using it even semi-regularly by now then it isn't balanced or otherwise up to par. I came up with what I consider to be a decent definition of what we strive for with the term "balance" here. The extra health helps it out, but clearly isn't enough.
I also specifically made a note in the OP about this. Maybe it would be too powerful. Maybe this would break the game. If that is the case, then perhaps it could be a new armor of some sort. One designed around the idea of having extra an extra ER.
ven, 05/09/2014 - 17:14
#9
+1
+1
ven, 05/09/2014 - 21:43
#10
↓
@Fehzor
Still, if it gets another ER... everyone will get it just for events they always seem to die on such as grinchlin assault. I don't like the idea of getting a free bonus spark by just sacrificing a bit of armor.
I'm going to use anecdotal evidence now.
I spend some time observing threads in the recruits subforum. I've chimed into plenty of farming threads there, providing hard evidence that a lot of the playerbase is wrong about FSC being the best place to farm. Yet again and again, everyone always suggests FSC as the best place. I have science that easily shows that FSC is not the best place to farm for newer players.
There are quite a lot of weapons and armor that people dont use. I believe a lot of the balance problem is superficially injected into the community through players parroting what other players suggest as fact [example]. Even Autofire is finding out that small differences in the armor images can make big differences in tanking. Why are they discovering this? Because no one went out of their way to test it before. Which brings me to my second response in this post...
@Sandwich-Potato
2 pips comes into play as 80 damage. Of the highest pure damages I've measured... A shankle on D28 deals 425 damage and a wheel launcher deals 450 in UFSC. Talk to any knight that doesn't use double penta heart trinkets because they can't afford them yet and they will appreciate +2 pips.
ven, 05/09/2014 - 22:19
#11
@ the Neutralizer example..
The reason Devilites are 'invincible' is because, from my experience, most bullets have a very short delay before they deal damage on impact. A tiny explosion, you could say- this would also explain why you can sometimes hit two enemies with the same supposedly single-target bullet. Devilites are sometimes 'immune' to gunfire, especially from guns with more 'damage delay', because of how they move. They move very fast at the start of their dodges.
To a lesser extent, this happens with Gremlins as well, but not nearly as often. Gremlins move a little more smoothly.
This also explains one source of 'internal ricochets' with alchemers. Enemies that are moving towards you quickly enough might eat the entirety of a charge attack because they've already moved on top of the original bullet before it "explodes".
sam, 05/10/2014 - 14:41
#12
I suddenly have an odd feeling that this isn't about vitasuits or emergency revives. Tell me whats troubling you.
sam, 05/10/2014 - 15:51
#13
↓
@Fehzor
It is about vitasuits and emergency revives. You haven't addressed how it would stay balanced with the modifications you suggested. You have resorted to using red herrings.
Items addressed:
- Usefulness to endgame players with heart trinkets. (Yes, I agree it is not too useful to them.)
Items you still need to address:
- Extra ER abuse in dangerous events where players die a lot, such as grinchlin assault.
- The current value of health bonus to players that don't use heart trinkets.
sam, 05/10/2014 - 17:07
#14
If you meant me, uh... that was in reply to SR's first link.
sam, 05/10/2014 - 18:09
#15
Well, if you insist I suppose I can play along.
- Extra ER abuse in dangerous events where players die a lot, such as grinchlin assault.
From- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/94326#comment-845365
"I recommend chaos to any player that can avoid fire well. Most of the time you are deathmarked by the ninjas so your armor is nullified. Fire statuses will murder you in chaos, however (freeze too!). It seems offense is the best defense in this event. You are a lot safer the less things there are trying to kill you."
If the current defensive strategies are not enough, and the best strategy is literally to die and revive to kill the boss, then perhaps we need some kind of defensive item to "abuse". Playing defensively should most certainly be an option even here, and if this is the situation where vitasuit shines then maybe that's a good thing.
Another key point is that Grinchlin Assault and like events are outliers. It isn't normal gameplay, and it isn't mandatory. It should really be of little concern.
In normal gameplay the item should be on par with other defensive options. This is because:
Number of hits you can take = Amount of health you have / Amount of damage you take from those hits;
Amount of health you have = Armor Health + Vitapod + Health from ER(s)
Amount of damage you take from those hits = dependent on how much defense you have
"Even Autofire is finding out that small differences in the armor images can make big differences in tanking"
We aren't talking about a small difference, we're talking about a huge one- the item in question lacks anything but normal resistance. Using any other armor would allow you to tank hits much much better, and you're giving that up for an extra ER.
In order for you to come out ahead, you have to find a small number of hearts lying around, or encounter one big arena that you have trouble with. Everywhere else you would be at a disadvantage.
- The current value of health bonus to players that don't use heart trinkets.
The knight starts out receiving +13 health (with most armor sets) in T3, and is able to increment their health by between 3 and 21 thereafter.
The bonus that you're receiving is +2. If we assume that you're on the third depth down and have a +9 vitapod, then you've already got 22 health. Using the vitasuit at that point would be about a 9% increase in this case, and even less of one moving forwards. I'm not sure about you, but I'd rather have a ton of extra defense, status resistance and some kind of weapon bonus instead of 9% more health. Trinkets on the other hand give you +6 health, or +12 if you use both. This is around a 27% increase.
You could make the point that starting out/not finding a vitapod, you're stuck at only 13 health and that 15 health would be much better. This yields a 15% increase in health, however sprite boosts are still 3 times more potent at 45% more gain.
With vitasuit, you'd hardly have an advantage over just not bringing it, unless it were to be revamped a bit in some way.
Further ideas for balancing the armor
It doesn't have to be vitasuit. I said that already. I really don't care if its vitasuit, though it could be a good fit.
If it were a new armor and not the vitasuit, I could see it giving normal health value and less normal defense than vitasuit deluxe currently does. Would that really be better though? I'm not so sure, and if I were a developer would want to play around with such a thing and see.
Another idea would be something like:
New Hat!
+Half normal defense of current vitasuit
+Fire/Shock/Stun Resistance: Negative med
+Ice/Poison Resistance: Positive med
+MSI: low (or even med?)
+Extra ER
-2 health bonus instead of +4
The knight would then have something like 5 + 4 - 2 = 7 health starting out in T3, which would drastically change the way you played, making you overly reliant on sonic mode and fast moving.
sam, 05/10/2014 - 20:14
#16
↓
The hat suggestion seems rather interesting. I like it.
Now onto the other stuff.
You like quoting me, don't you?
You overlooked a key part of that comment - "Most of the time you are deathmarked by the ninjas so your armor is nullified."
All armor was pretty much worthless suggesting the best choices for armor would be ones that give offensive bonuses or hp bonuses. I can't seem to find the comment in some random thread of me suggesting buying a vitapod from the vendor before the start of the mission.
What about other dangerous missions that everyone complained about dying a lot... like tortodrones.
I'll save you some trouble and find a quote of mine from those threads... here
"The generic strategy of "kill it before it kills you" is pretty worthless here."
But wait... You are rehashing the first bullet point again.
Items addressed:
- Usefulness to endgame players with heart trinkets. (Yes, I agree it is not too useful to them.)
As for the +2 in comparison to 5* armor...
We are comparing lvl 5+ 4* armor to lvl 5+ 5* armor.
Vitasuit deluxe outclasses the damage resistance of 5* armor below level 5. Lets find a quote of yours on the subject of radiants... How about this one?
In fact, with the reduction for lower strata... 4* armor is equivalent or better than 5* on stratas 1-5. Source 1 Source 2 (heating curve)
So lets compare the real values for newer player that doesn't have their 5* gear fully heated or has heart trinkets.
+9 vita, lvl 1-4 5* armor/helm yields.... 20 pips of health with worse off armor than most 5*.
+9 vita, lvl 5-10 4* vitasuit deluxe+random helm.... 23 pips of health with better armor than the 5* unheated stuff.
The vitasuit deluxe trades damage bonuses (usually +8% for 5*) for a +3 pip (which ranges from 27% to 10% boost [or 15%-6% if you use +2]).
I view that as a balanced tradeoff.
Edit:
Don't take this personally. I watch suggestion threads that I deem as potentially game breaking and make sure that potential abusive aspects are brought up. Another example of this type of thread would be the suggestions for making the wrench want heal allies on charge and "fixes" for radiant drop rates. Without massive penalties such as the ones you listed in the hat, a bonus ER has the potential to be overpowered and break the survival strategy intent for some dangerous missions.
sam, 05/10/2014 - 23:24
#17
Yeah, I really think that if they gave it this it would be best to bump it up to 5* so as to make the costs and scaling into the endgame line up. I kind of counted on that going in, though I thought better to leave it up to the discretion of a GM. I thought I made that clear above.
Besides, the heating issue is a much larger problem that effects a lot more items than just vitasuit deluxe, which is really an obscure item at this point. Taking it into account really isn't the best idea, especially when it could change at any time.
dim, 05/11/2014 - 00:05
#18
The papaya laughs
Well that escalated quickly, but here's a +1 from me. It's called Vita-suit for a reason :3
mer, 05/28/2014 - 08:21
#19
↓
I actually just thought of a good compromise for the vitasuit deluxe.
What if instead of healing 40 hp per heart picked up, any of the vitasuit line healed 60 hp per heart?
mer, 05/28/2014 - 12:45
#20
That would indeed be a nice feature to have added in, yes.
+1