Spiral Knights - Knockback damage

Knockback damage

30 replies [Last post]

Fri, 09/05/2014 - 17:51

Trats-Romra

Basically, the idea is:
When a enemy is knockbacked by a WEAPON (so shield bump doesn't count) and this hit a wall or any static object, it receives damage based on the speed that it was thrown.

If it were implemented on game, I suppose it would make the game more real and would give more use for knockback, since the knockback is a "hardly controlled beast"... by newbies.

So... that's all folks!

P.S: On case of need of more details, ask please.

EDIT: The knockback damage will also have damage inversely escalated with weapons' speed.

Fri, 09/05/2014 - 18:26

Sandwich-Potato

Would the knockback damage scale by Tier (looking at you vials) and also the level of the weapon gear? The Red Saber, for example, does T1 fire damage even in T3. Would a Sealed Sword then do T2 knockback damage in T3 as well?

I like it though, would be a nice help for shield bash.

Fri, 09/05/2014 - 18:34

Trats-Romra

@Sandwich-Potato
Well... I need to admit that I didn't think on it.
I think "Vials' way" is a viable way. Just like you asked on your question.

Long time no see, Sandwich-Potato. Maybe just for me. I don't see you commenting on forums since a long time.

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 00:34

Fe-Tarkus

If the enemy is staggered/interrupted does it matter?
Will there be some sort of sliding-down-from-wall animation from gremlins or beasts, or fiends (and whatnot)?
BAB now viable?
Are Knights affected similarly?
How fast is fast enough to create the effect? Brandish charge attack explosions good enough? Graviton Bomb? Nitrodome? Troikas? Flourishes?
Should this be an exclusive of Troikas, Gravitons, BABs, Irontechs, Catalyzers(at critical mass). These sort of weapons? Or like GF/DA attack combo pushes enemies enough to apply KB damage as well?
Does proximity to wall contribute to damage?

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 04:45

Sandwich-Potato

@Trats-Romana

I went on hiatus for about a month or so, due to vacation. I think I might have forgotten to make a thread in the GC about that. Oops...

I like this idea though, especially because it gives BAB that little boost, which is always helpful.

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 07:38

Trats-Romra

@Sandwich-Potato
Nah... it isn't needed. I guess...
Anyway, thanks for your support.

And it's "Trats-Romra", not "Trats-Romana".

@Fe-Tarkus
Wow, a lot of questions. Ok, let's begin:

If the enemy is staggered/interrupted does it matter? No.

Will there be some sort of sliding-down-from-wall animation from gremlins or beasts, or fiends (and whatnot)? No. It isn't needed.

BAB now viable? Yes, for sure.

Are Knights affected similarly?
Well... I really didn't think on that. But if you are talking about Lockdown, yeah, for sure. But if it's about monsters, I'll need to think a bit...

How fast is fast enough to create the effect? Brandish charge attack explosions good enough? Graviton Bomb? Nitrodome? Troikas? Flourishes?
When the enemy hit the wall, it is damaged. Or do you wanted to mean another thing?

Should this be an exclusive of Troikas, Gravitons, BABs, Irontechs, Catalyzers(at critical mass). These sort of weapons? Or like GF/DA attack combo pushes enemies enough to apply KB damage as well?
Any weapon that causes knockback. So, if you hit a enemy with a spur on the wall, it will cause KB damage. But for sure, on this case, it isn't gonna be like 30~40 damage. It could be like 5~6 damage.

Does proximity to wall contribute to damage?
No, it receives damage based on the speed that it was thrown. So you haven't the case that a monster receive just 1 of knockback damage, 'cause it was far away of the wall. But, if it appear to be too OP, I'll reconsider.

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 07:45

Holy-Nightmare

Why not make the Knockback

Why not make the Knockback damage affected by the weapon's speed?

In short give slower weapon greater knockback damage (this would keep BAB, Troikas, and other slow weapons useful), this damage would get dropped by armor boosts and UVs (to prevent DA/GF asi VH from being further OP in LD)

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 11:00

Fe-Tarkus

Is the speed that is used for KB damage calculation directional? Does it solely use the velocity vector to the wall/object, or straight up speed? as in does it only use the speed at which the enemy is approaching the wall, or the speed at which the enemy is approaching the wall and the speed at which the enemy is moving along the wall.

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 13:34

Trats-Romra

@Holy-Knightmare
I agree. It would be better.
I'm thinking here... If KB damage would be based on weapon's speed on the way you proposed, so we are indirectly buffing Guardian Set, right?

@Fe-Tarkus
Is the speed that is used for KB damage calculation directional? What you mean with directional?

Does it solely use the velocity vector to the wall/object, or straight up speed?
Just speed. For example: A weapon knockback a enemy. The enemie flies at x m/s. If the enemy hit a static object, it takes damage directly proportional to the speed.

as in does it only use the speed at which the enemy is approaching the wall, or the speed at which the enemy is approaching the wall and the speed at which the enemy is moving along the wall.
Just the speed at which the enemy is approaching the wall.

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 22:18

Fe-Tarkus

So basically what I was trying to elucidate is whether knockback that makes an enemy slide along a wall equate to the same effect as an enemy smacked right at the wall.

If an enemy is already up against the wall will knockback damage against the wall still apply? there's no distance to fly and no speed gained.

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 23:42

#10

Trats-Romra

If an enemy is already up against the wall will knockback damage against the wall still apply? there's no distance to fly and no speed gained.
It's included. I'll show how it works by steps:

If knight hit a enemy then
The enemy take damage
if the weapon cause knockback then
enemy is knockbacked at speed x
if enemy hit a wall then
The enemy take damage
Set speed at 0

Computer works on this way. It follow steps given by a developer. And these would be the steps if my suggestion would be implemented.
Now, if you look on them, you can see that it's specify a speed to x before verifying if it hit a wall. So, even attached to a wall it gonna take KB damage.

Explaining in a different way, think on reality: If you is attached to a very strong wall and a guy with a big hammer hit you, you gonna take the major part of the impact, right? KB damage works on the same way.

Sat, 09/20/2014 - 12:56

#11

Trats-Romra

Bump

Sat, 09/20/2014 - 13:54

#12

Fangel

Just thought of something

With the way you proposed, would this allow high-knockback weapons to deal additional damage in lockdown? Like, would invinciframes still protect against knockback damage? If not, I can see high-knockback weapons being pretty amazing in PvP. (I like that idea. Leviathan blade being called OP would make my day.)

Sat, 09/20/2014 - 20:42

#13

Trats-Romra

I was considering to add what Holy-Nightmare said, but after you spoken about Levi, I'm thinking on reconsider his suggestion.

would this allow high-knockback weapons to deal additional damage in lockdown?
(turns on propaganda voice)
Yes!!! This works on both, PvE and PvP!!! It's a great additon that will change everything!!!
(turns off propaganda voice)

would invinciframes still protect against knockback damage?
... Can you explain the thing about invinciframes? Is it protecting a knight from being knockbacked? English isn't my native english and Google translator not helped me this time.

Sat, 09/20/2014 - 23:04

#14

Fe-Tarkus

"Invinciframes" refer to the period of flashing after Knights get damaged.
The term "Invinciframes" is a combination of "invincibility" and "frames". "frames" in simple terms, is a measure of time. So, it means the time period in which something is invincible.

Currently, I believe invinciframes do block additional attempts of knockback.

Sat, 09/20/2014 - 23:58

#15

Trats-Romra

So... to my idea work on PvP, they need to fix invinciframes? What a sad thing...

Tue, 10/21/2014 - 03:39

#16

Blandaxt

why not?

why not make it so that when a knight/monster touches an object such as a block or wall or barbwire after getting knock-back get automatic knock-back damage that is a set value. So, this is not an actual calculation, but more of a cause and effect. So, i hit you and you get knock-back plus invisible frames. But if you touch something like an obstacle while getting knock-back, an additional damage value will be added up on the initial damage you got from my hit.

Also, about the clockworks, how about adding an effect of getting knock-back from monsters such as lumbers and Trojans or monster bosses. This effect will be that if you get hit and knock-back, one of the items being carried in your item slot such as a pill or vial will drop from your character and stumble a couple blocks away. I think adding this effect would give knock-back a small fearful factor.

Mon, 10/20/2014 - 12:16

#17

Trats-Romra

The idea about Lumbers and Trojans is good. I liked it.

But I disagree about knockback being a set value. Brandishes would cause more damage. Imagine a knight hitting a monster attached to a wall with a brandish? It would make them more destructive. And being a calculated damage, weapons with big knockback would receive more value.

Now, I'll change the OP and add Holy-Knightmare suggestion.

Tue, 10/21/2014 - 03:39

#18

Blandaxt

then..

How will we overcome the invisible frames then?

Tue, 10/21/2014 - 14:52

#19

Trats-Romra

So... Do Invisible frames happen because of calculated damage? Well, so we can make it a new type of damage that is neutral to all enemies and just happens when the knight or monster hit a wall. The knockback damage is specified to each weapon on the way that OOO feels like. That would be OK? I don't want to buff Brandishes even more, so OOO could set certain amount of knockback damage on each weapon that they deserve it, for example, BAB, Irontech... Maybe could be a thing on shields bashes too.

So, do it works?

Tue, 10/21/2014 - 17:15

#20

Fangel

Why not have it be a fraction

You could have knockback damage be a fraction of the damage dealt. Such as a leviathan blade charge attack would cause an additional 25% damage of the charge hit when the enemy hits the wall, and perhaps even stun them? I would think enemies would have to be going a certain velocity in order for the damage to take effect, thus making low knockback attacks (like a brandish charge) not deal too much which high knockback attacks (like a sudaruska charge) would deal massive damage.

Also, the term is "invinciframes", stemming from the word "Invincible", meaning unable to be hurt or damaged, and "frames", meaning various poses taken during an animation's lifespan. Invisible is when something is unable to be seen.

Tue, 10/21/2014 - 17:19

#21

Holy-Nightmare

........

Why not have the damage from knockback on a delay? Chances are with high knockback you won't get close enough to attack and activate invinciticks, perhaps something like an invisible damaging status that lasts till it gets a damage tick.

A knight brandish hitting a monster against a wall so that it rides the wave and takes wall damage would require skill, I believe players should be rewarded for displaying high skill levels. Of course since brandishes have much higher speed than troikas the knockback damage would be rather low.

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 11:01

#22

Blandaxt

Knockback

I also feel that monsters such as colony slime's should also do knock back damage in their thorn spin attack. Their is probably a whole list out there, but lots of other monster's like bosses (such as vanaduke) would have great knock back damage. So besides knight sword weapons, guns such as polaris would also have knock back damage sense they have push back effects.

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 11:05

#23

Crazierz

How would you tell?

What if you hit a wall walking by accident a LOT of people would die from hitting walls and random removable blocks.

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 11:31

#24

Blandaxt

lol

i thik the conditions for knock back wall damage would be for that player or monster has to be attacked first. hheeh

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 11:38

#25

Fangel

Velocity check

Have entities who have lots of velocity have damage dealt to them when they hit an object. Touching walls will not deal damage, being flung into walls will.

This would actually give the darkfang mender a potential attack again. As long as velocity is applied just like damage is, then we could probably shield the wall. I mean, we already shield ridiculous things as is. (Rocket from the sky? Better shield in front of me)

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 12:32

#26

Blandaxt

lol

ye we do shield "Rocket from the sky" and lots of everything like swarm of scarabs flying everywhere. so shielding a wall is nothing compared to those.

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 12:38

#27

Holy-Nightmare

Nom > Rocket

Our shields can take rockets easy but a few Gorgo noms and it breaks? Suuuuuuure

@ Fangel

We could also have something that checks to se if velocity is over a certain number, that way fast swords that don't deal much knockback wont be incredibly buffed.

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 16:47

#28

Trats-Romra

Sorry guys for not replying all this time, but I don't know how to make my idea more acceptable. I look at your ideas and all appear to be good. The unique thing that I disagree is the idea of KB damage dealing stun. I think it would make stun weapons even more pointless. Despite this, I agree with adding KB damage to monsters.

Every time I look on this thread I really don't know what I say. It's a bit frustrating...

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 17:18

#29

Fangel

Yup

Not just any velocity for sure. Perhaps even having larger velocities do larger damage, such as [if Velocity > 15, multiply velocity by 2 and turn it into damage]. This makes high knockback weapons deal massive sums of damage in close-quarters. Sudaruska charge? Already devastating, but now against a wall? People might scream OP, but at this point it's competing with brandishes, but is harder to master, which would be great for normal-damage weapons!

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 22:41

#30

Blandaxt

Agreed!

agreed with fangel that sudaruska weapon lines will finally deliver the earth shattering damage that it has portrayed in its visuals if this effect is implemented and give player in pvp a good reason to carry a slow swinging weapon.

@Trats-Romra: dont worry man, frustration comes with invention!

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