Spiral Knights - Ability to take any sword by two hands (some dual wielding stuff too)

Ability to take any sword by two hands (some dual wielding stuff too)

34 replies [Last post]

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 02:46

Ewbte

Easy as cake.
It gives you extra 50% of damage and Knight is still able to block, shield life is only 25% from regular shield of same star.
Shield power and themes (normal/ele/shadow/pierce) might be based on weapon damage bar.
For example: troika line – only normal damage resistance, brandish line – normal and elemental/shadow, toothpick – only piercing, etc.

System could be used for dual wielding too, but defence is based on one of swords (yes, ewbte knows, there is a bunch of suggestion about that already).
Same here, regular attack button and regular shield button. I don't think that dual wielding should use two buttons for different hits, at first you guys want it because of that badass look isn't it?

I play Dark Souls a lot these days and I really like how they implemented this.
This system doesn't need heavy calculations for devs and will be pretty balanced in my opinion.
The main problem is to make new animations.

ps. mkey, lets wait a bit for a dinner update, or it was gunner update..? eh i don't remember already.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 04:09

Hexzyle

hexzyle.core did not shut down successfully. If this was due to-

We've been through this plenty of times before. There are only a very small handful of ideas that actually would work, the rest are just duplicates upon duplicates of rehashed ideas from other games that don't translate well as Spiral Knight's combat system, despite being an Action RPG, is unique due to certain restrictions.

Basically the Swiftstrike Buckler and Snarby Shield already do this: a boost to damage due to a sacrifice in shield health.

Now, one of the ideas that would work IMO would be a cosmetic option to change the wielding of swords (or new swords with this animation) to a two-handed animation (or even options to reverse hand preference) but giving a straight out buff to damage without a penalty that isn't just "durr remove shield" is just uncreative and doesn't have any sort of striking difference between simply equipping either of the two shields mentioned above.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 04:14

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak

really I posted before hex but the site decided to be a jerk and log me out for no reason

standard stuff for this

posted many times before
dont use the forum search
yes it would need a lot of balancing
cosmetic is really the only thing that wouldn't require a full year to do

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 05:22

Ewbte

Hexzyle this one is enough

Hexzyle
this one is enough balanced in terms of sk balance style, if you know what I mean.
snarby shield has lack of shield health?

with 25% of health sword block will be broken after one hit, looks like enough compensation for newbies, not sure if oldies use shield for shielding much in this game. The main point is about to add some more play builds.

Oohnorak
ye I just wanted to mention again how bad everything is

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 05:29

Avihr

Hmm, I've fought worse

"ye I just wanted to mention again how bad everything is"

Sounds legit.

one dualweilding coming right up guyse! balance never meant anything around here so why not.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 05:33

Ewbte

/gi

<69

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 05:41

Hexzyle

-the system not responding, or if the system shut down to-

@Ewbte
"this one is enough balanced in terms of sk balance style, if you know what I mean."

Technically yes, but practically there is little difference between the implementation you are suggesting and the fact that there are shields that do something to a similar effect.

"snarby shield has lack of shield health?"

The BTS has less piercing resistance than other shields, and no other Sword DMG Increase sheilds exist, meaning that in locations where there are enemies dealing Elemental and Shadow damage, your shield has no resistances (in addition to having no status resists) so it breaks quicker.

"with 25% of health sword block will be broken after one hit"

With Acheron (and other brandish charges) dealing a bonus 50% damage, would enemies even be able to get close enough so that this would be an actual valid disadvantage?

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 06:14

Ewbte

Oh yes thank you for

Oh yes thank you for mentioning that. the damage bonus shouldn't affect charged attacks which not hit enemies directly from hand. Otherwise that is ridiculous. Or that bonus should affect only normal and piercing damage bars from weapon (which is physical damage), which also will bring back in game a lot of awesome normal damage swords. And it make sense since you keep weapon in two hands.

Shield health is not a shield defensive power. But yes, first one depends on second one, and lets have deeper look in things: weapon has low damage bar against attack enemy use on you, it will break and you will get hit in a same time. Just as shields works right now. As I said before it is easy as cake. My idea uses almost only current mechanics, so there is not a lot to develop. Of course it need more thoughts to bring in, but this a suggestion thread where we suggest ideas, make it to condition and real is a devs work. Ewbte just suggest a prototype of mechanics, nothing else.

Also about brandishes charge attack, will be awesome if only closest hit could do normal+themed damage and explosives only themed damage. THat could bring in some balance to that line haha.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 06:52

Whimsicality

Instead of this, buff Dread Venom Striker and Wild Hunting Blade.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 12:26

Fehzor

@OP and Whimsicality

Keep in mind that this makes the brandishes, cutters, winmillion, and DA/GF much stronger when dual handed than any other sword type, as these have souped up amounts of damage to compensate for the fact that they deal less damage twice. Basically, you'd be dealing over twice the damage with a "50%" increase in damage.................

Lets say that, hypothetically:

Brandish = 100 damage against a neutral mob
Normal Brandish = 100 damage against a neutral mob

Brandish deals (normal - def) + (special - def) = 100 vs Normal's (normal - def) = 100.
...
Normal+Special - 2Def = 100
N+S = 100 + 2Def
And for a normal damage sword that, at base does the same 100:
N = 100 + Def

When you multiplied by 50% however:

(1.5 * normal - def) + (1.5 * special - def)
OR
1.5(normal + special) - 2def

1.5(100 + 2Def) - 2def = 150 + Def
VS a normal variant:
1.5(100 + Def) - Def = 150 + .5 Def

On Depth 28, according to the wiki....

Monster defense (neutral) = 164
Damage done by a brandish (no buffs) = 292 (first swings), 382 (third swing finish)

So plugging these numbers in, we would see that:

Before: 292, 382
After (Combuster): 602, 737
After (Normal Combuster w/out split): 502, 655

Keep in mind that this is on a neutral mob, and not one that is weak to combuster. The other benefactors would be............. interesting as well.

Dread Venom Striker: 108 + 67 (normal hit + ghost hit) = 175
Dread Venom Striker + 50%: 244 + 182 = 426

But wait! It gets better! This doesn't account for say, a hypothetically dual handed dread venom striker with black kat set! If the buff is applied on top of the damage boost from the existing damage increase boosts, as it would make sense for it to be:

Dread Venom Striker (+Damage +6 and the new 1.5 multiplier): 342 + 265 = 607
WITH AN ATTACK ORB: 493 + 394 = 887
WITH DEADLY SHADOW CLOAK (but no attack orb): 544 + 436 = 980

980 damage per swipe with a cutter is roughly 10K damage done per shadow cloak, and a ton more if heaven forbid you get a 30 second attack boost from something. If everyone in a party brought that to vanaduke and used it, the fight would be over as soon as his goofy flame barrier thing went down. Slags would be 2 shotted with an attack orb or deadly shadow cloak and the max damage. By dread venom striker.

Is that a good enough buff for you Whimsicality?

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 12:38

#10

Whimsicality

Dual Wielding is a stupid concept. With that out of the way...

I was just going to suggest removing the damaging hitbox of the ghost swing and adding the damage the ghost swing did onto the initial swing, keeping it virtually the same but negating the fact that the second swing is buggier than a dumpster full of roaches, but hey, you're always looking for something to argue about. Bravo!

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 12:48

#11

Holy-Nightmare

Too OP

I would salvage this by suggesting that each player can choose the idle sword stance of their knight and let this be one of them, the attack pattern stays the same as would damage.

There could be others such as over the shoulder carry.
Low sword (tip held slightly behind knight and pointing down
LOZ Oot (shield and sword held slightly closer together than stock)
Gladiator (shield and sword held wide apart with body further forward)
2 handed from this post (stance similar to the TF2 Demoknight)

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 13:58

#12

Fehzor

@Whimsicality

That would be an interesting way to go. Might be too much of a buff if they added both damages directly, or a nerf if they didn't.

Damage if they just added per swing (no damage buffs): 339
Damage at max: 459
---
Damage if they added per swing and subtracted the excess to keep it the same as current w/ no damage buffs: 175
Damage at max w/ change: 256
Current damage at max: 295

And I'm sad to hear that that is how you feel about me. If it's any consolation, you (and everyone else in existence, for that matter) might not have to put up with me for too much longer XD

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 14:33

#13

Fangel

Hexy it's been so long

I've missed your construct face here on the forums.

As for the suggestion, no.

What you suggest is better than what others have suggested, but it's still a big no if it's not just cosmetic.
The two ways dual wielding can happen is to make a new shield line that acts as a weapon, or make a new weapon line that is based on dual wielding. New shield line is my vote, as having new unique shields would be great, and it wouldn't break other bits of the game (*cough* lockdown *cough*) more. A new weapon type could be introduced new and work that way.

Possible new shields could be: parrying blade, shielded dart launcher, bomb reactor. Parrying blade adds an attack swipe that reflects the damage your weapon does after a full combo. Dart launcher adds a tortofist/short-ranged projectile dart that deals weak damage and inflicts either sleep or poison after a full combo (and doesn't break blocks). Bomb reactor drops a small (gremlin demo) bomb onto the ground when you unleash a charge attack. All three shields still act like a shield, and maybe do a thing when the shield bit is broken? (Blade counter-attack with a stronger swipe with a bit of knockback, dart launcher unleashes a barrage of 7 darts in front of the knight, reactor drops 3-5 bombs on the ground around the player)

I don't know, some sort of unique shield is a better solution to dual wielding than dual wielding is.

Thu, 10/02/2014 - 01:02

#14

Ewbte

Fehzor, if you did read my

Fehzor, if you did read my last message here, you would notice the thing about physical damage boost only. And it will be better to give bonus only to normal damage because ewbte has no idea how to use rapier like swords with two hands, there is no space for two hands.

Now with that knowledge please calculate again. And keep in mind the fact that Knight can't use its shield for blocking anymore. Because any hit from themed monster will break it and you get hit at a same time, like if you'd bring a 2* shield in st6.

Thu, 10/02/2014 - 07:26

#15

Fehzor

The only normal thing still has the same effect on dread venom striker lol. You would hardly need a shield with this. I mean you could get rid of the buff on the ghost hit, but that's dvs's big thing.

Whimsicality is right in that buffing just cutters would be better.

Thu, 10/02/2014 - 21:26

#16

Mrgrey

Buff cutters you say?

In all seriousness, Hex and I have gone over dual wielding pretty far in-depth. I have compiled/made pretty solid suggestions toward cutters...

Fri, 10/03/2014 - 10:51

#17

Fangel

Um.

And keep in mind the fact that Knight can't use its shield for blocking anymore. Because any hit from themed monster will break it and you get hit at a same time, like if you'd bring a 2* shield in st6.

This is pretty much the reason people bring a swiftstrike buckler or a barbarous thorn shield everywhere. The latter has a bit of defensive power, but the swiftstrike is very vulnerable.

For the most part, it sounds like what you want is a new shield line with unique attributes (like the tortoshield) and a damage bonus. If you want it for looks, that's great too, but perhaps it would be a new crafting line or reskin that works exactly the same as an old weapon. The furious fork does this rather nicely.

Fri, 10/03/2014 - 13:25

#18

Ewbte

/sh

facepalm.jpg

Sun, 10/05/2014 - 01:17

#19

Apsuenbwyfer

What I was thinking...

Regarding the shields thing, there’s one very obvious reason why this is different that I’m surprised nobody seems to have thought of: 2-Handing a weapon would be TOGGLEABLE. When I was reading the idea I had it in my head that it would be similar to how the Souls games work in that you can CHOOSE to forego your shield and leave yourself vulnerable for a few seconds to capitalise on when an enemy is open to attack.

Like, imagine you’re fighting one of those big machines (I think they’re called battle pods) at the end of the Sewer stash mission, or the three of them in the Seerus boss fight. You have a couple seconds between periods of invulnerability in which to wail on them as much as possible. Admittedly, 50% is way too big of a damage bonus to be balanced, but in the way I’m envisioning it it seems ok.

To clarify, my view is that you press a button, your shield goes into your back, you hold the sword you have in two hands, you gain the equivalent of “Sword damage bonus: Low”, and your shield’s durability is reduced to 50% (visualised when the bar becomes half greyed out). You can switch between normal and 2-handed mode at any time (just like changing weapons) and switching weapons will automatically switch you back into normal mode. (2-handing guns and bombs does nothing, as you would expect)

Apart from being a nightmare to animate for, and to patch a new shield function in to each sword, I think that sounds reasonable. Thoughts?

Mon, 10/06/2014 - 04:36

#20

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak

having the shield toggleable isnt that good of an idea, because it essentially changes what youre using for no reason
so add damage by removing something u wont need, thats like buffing someone's damage if they don't have all weapon slots filled

Sun, 10/05/2014 - 05:47

#21

Apsuenbwyfer

"changing what you're using to attack"

That is literally the definition of "switching weapons". Coming back to dark souls, there is no change in the actual equipment, just the position it's in. You will still have the shield to switch back to, and DO NOT have the damage bonus while you also have your shield in your hand. When it goes onto your back, your shield hand goes onto the sword, which is when the damage bonus activates, and it only persists WHILE you are two-handing your sword. Damage will return to normal when you either stop two-handing manually or switch weapons to make it happen automatically.

Sun, 10/05/2014 - 09:23

#22

Ewbte

@Apsuenbwyfer or this way,

@Apsuenbwyfer
or this way, yes, but dmg bonus should go above maximum if you already have that. about balancing.. how about reduce attack speed? Like you get dmg bonus med and attack speed decrease med?
heheh, a lot of ways it could be made and DS version is most balanced in my opinion, whatever in the end devs will decide what and how to.

I want to repeat for dummies, this thread is about new ways of how to fight the clockworks in first place. Existing ways of builds is too small.

Mon, 10/06/2014 - 00:55

#23

Apsuenbwyfer

Going above max?

No, I don't think it that should be possible to upgrade your damage bonus above max. The people who would be making the most use of this function are the skilled players who don't have an optimised loadout for each level in the entire clockworks. Just like the battle sprites that come with perks that give you damage bonus: low against certain monster families in early levels, allowing the player to increase their damage just a little bit to help take down a tough enemy (Say, the giant lichen colony in the last room before the Royal Jelly boss fight) when there are few or no other enemies remaining in the room is the intended function of this mechanic, not to help speedrunners blitz through FSC 2 minutes faster because of the slightly boosted numbers you get.

Mon, 10/06/2014 - 07:52

#24

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak

aps I meant change the weapon ur using, not switch to a different one
my point was, you wont use your shield, and the toggle makes u stronger for toggling off something you wont use

Mon, 10/06/2014 - 10:47

#25

Ewbte

/sh

I say above reachable maximum with items because it is very easy to get in game now, chaos set and trinkets here u go triple max. And this is all-purpose set for skilled player (except c42 mission which is the only mission not about player skills, but gear).
And this addition don't need any new info bars or anything else to be mentioned. It should work independently from existing bonuses.

Mon, 10/06/2014 - 20:34

#26

Avihr

Dead.

RIP in pieces Aviri's post.
666-2014
Deleted to death.

Mon, 10/06/2014 - 11:21

#27

Ewbte

/ho

@Aviri
yes , a lot of ways!

I'd like charge for troika line when your knight starts to spin for 1080 degrees hehe, troika is number 3 from russian, so 3x360º = 1080º, seems legit.

Mon, 10/06/2014 - 11:26

#28

Fehzor

Or it could spin 3 radians and be a normal swipe.

Mon, 10/06/2014 - 11:30

#29

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak

I agree with aviri on that, instead of stacking damage add a bit of new mechanics

Mon, 10/06/2014 - 12:54

#30

Ewbte

/gi

@Oohnorak
yes you are vohtarak, yes.

Mon, 10/06/2014 - 14:33

#31

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak

what? if ur mocking me I put that there because thats my in game name
and I can't change the forum one

Mon, 10/06/2014 - 20:31

#32

Avihr

Hmm, I've fought worse.

Yes delete it all from existance and from my memory forever, ever to be even spoken again by anyone in the universe? oh? that isn't what you meant? TOO LATE NOW! post has been obliterated, destroyed, terminated, friggin pwnd.

Tue, 10/07/2014 - 04:55

#33

Mystrian

Celery sticks

Tue, 10/07/2014 - 11:28

#34

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak, call me by that name

thank you for your Insightful and intelligent comment

Search

Ability to take any sword by two hands (some dual wielding stuff too)