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I've recently been getting some idea about what OOO's "ideal" for SK is

9 replies [Last post]
Sun, 12/07/2014 - 19:29
Almond-Riddle's picture
Almond-Riddle

Fair warning in advance. This is mostly a bunch of speculations since OOO doesn't tell us anything. At the same time, it is also a huge rant.

Looking at everything, the direction all the patches and updates so far have gone, I'm starting to understand what OOO's ideal for SK is.

The Arcade is meant to be the main selling point of the game. Whereas Missions are supposed to be a kind of 'tutorial' to give players a starting point, before they can start diving straight into the Arcade.

But that is not how things panned out.

Instead, the majority of players spend their time doing missions and pretty much ignoring he Arcade completely. OOO, as well as some players, see this as a problem.

So OOO tries to rectify this problem, as seen in the gunner update, through Basil. Giving a kind of 'reward' system, for those who brave the clockworks.

However, OOO also wants the Arcade to have some 'social' elements. Getting players to meet and get to know other players, to promote teamwork, and all that jazz.

But the popularity of Basil runs contradicts with their 'social' ideal. When hunting for recipes at Basil, the majority of players opt to choose the easiest possible gate, and then speedrun the stages on solo.

Because unlike OOO, the player's goal is not to meet other players, but to get to Basil.

Sure, in some situations, a random group of people meet together with the common goal of reaching Basil together. But not only is that rare, the extent of such poorly formed relationships usually end the moment the goal is reached. That is, reaching Basil.

Clearly, OOO should've come up with a better incentive to get people to run the clockworks. At the same time, OOO should have realized that the convenience of Missions were a little TOO convenient.

There's also one factor, one that's already pretty obvious, but needs to be said regardless. The ideals of the player does not always coincide with that of the developers.

What do OOO want? A social interaction, followed by a sense of adventure for the players.

What do most players want? Cap out as fast as possible.

A number of players (especially the non-hardcore ones) do not want to grind. They do not want an 'adventure' or to 'discover'. They just want to get as strong as they can, as fast as they can.

Ultimately, compared to missions, that's what the Arcade is. A grind.

If OOO really wants to get players to play the Arcades the way they want, the whole game would need a huge overhaul.

Another thing I'd like to talk about, is the Arsenal.

One of the most obvious things I should say, is that SK is meant to be a game that is very much dependent on the players 'skills'. Grinding will of course make you stronger, but ultimately, if you're not good, then no amount of top-class gear will save you.

Because of that, there is no real way, to play the game defensively. In the scale running between offense and defense, SK leans very heavily towards offense.

Just take a look at the armors. What can be considered as the best armor? Naturally, the plate sets. So Ironmight, Volcanic, and Ancient.

Naturally, since they give such a boost to your defense, they take away a bit of your offense.

But is that really true? Is the defense provided really worth the offense taken?

The answer is no.

Just try comparing an offensive Skolver set with a defensive Ironmight set. Let them both get hit by a Wolver. They both take the same amount of damage.

Sure, the Plate sets are good at handling Trojans, but what's the point of giving you an advantage against a small minority of monsters, if it leaves you so vulnerable to the remaining majority?

Point is, I'm trying to say that there is a huge excess of armors that are ultimately useless. What's the point of having such a wide selection of equipment, if only a select few are worth using?

Aside from that, I wanna talk about playstyles.

There are three weapon types: swords, guns, and bombs.

Swords are supposed to be for DPS, guns are for support, and bombs are for utility.

...Except no.

In the eyes of OOO, people are really supposed to use swords and guns. Bombs are just... there. That's why the bombers are always the ones getting shafted.

Oh no! Bombs are starting to outdamage guns! Nerf.

I mean COME ON.

When people started using shards offensively instead of the way OOO ideally wanted them to get used (as traps), they got nerfed.

But on the other hand, when brandishes started to take the haze bomb's role as status spreaders, did they get nerfed? Nope.

I can't help but see a huge sense of favoritism on OOO's side in regards to the weapons.

Another thing to point out is the starting weapons. The 0* and 1* weapons for both guns and swords are extremely diverse. Whereas in the case for bombs, they only have blast bombs. It's as if OOO is going around telling newbies to not even bother trying to be a bomber.

Just look at the current metagame. Sure guns and swords are finally balanced with each other, but can you honestly tell me that it doesn't look like bombers are getting screwed over?

Sun, 12/07/2014 - 20:18
#1
Gianor's picture
Gianor
This hurts my eyes...

Do you know what a paragraph is?

Sun, 12/07/2014 - 20:22
#2
Bopp's picture
Bopp
summary

For people who don't want to read all of that, the original poster has three points (as far as I can tell):

A. The Arcade is not as social as Three Rings intended, because people do solo speed-runs to get to Basil.

B. Armor is unbalanced, because the defensive armors aren't defensive enough.

C. Bombs are second-class citizens, compared to swords and guns.

Sun, 12/07/2014 - 20:39
#3
Almond-Riddle's picture
Almond-Riddle
@Gianor

I have a bad habit of using my writing style for chats inside forums as well. Sorry about that.

@Bopp: thanks as always dude.

Sun, 12/07/2014 - 21:37
#4
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I think the problem is really more about how players see the game than anything else. People come in, and they are immediately greeted by missions, which lead to more missions, and the arcade just isn't really fit into that except maybe as a means of doing more levels for no real reason... by presenting players with a new mission to complete, the bar is set and a sense of urgency must be met to progress.

If you care to read about it, I wrote up my thoughts on a possible solution here- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/95121

As for the people doing recipe runs, I think that Basil isn't innately bad except for when he offers me 20 of the new armor recipes and I'm not looking for any of them. Then I give him the stink eye and throw vials at him. Newer players haven't been told to do recipe runs, and would have to get the idea of them from somewhere- veteran players. This in itself requires them to socialize and play the game. Similarly, doing the same thing over and over gets old, and veteran players like to fight with others as well as rush through levels for a profit... playing the game slowly is actually quite satisfying, for a lot of people.

-------------------

I don't think that the developers hate bombers. I think that they don't want to listen to players because they think that players are ignorant of game mechanics and have tainted views, because in most cases these things are absolutely true. I don't think that this update has to be exactly 33% about bombers and swordies and gunners either. It is OK for gunners to get an update. Swordies and bombers can get updates too, without the developers hating gunners. Someone will always feel left out, but they can wait their turn or heaven forbid learn to enjoy the use of handguns/bombs/swords.

Sun, 12/07/2014 - 21:52
#5
Almond-Riddle's picture
Almond-Riddle
The Basil run was supposed to

The Basil run was supposed to be an example. I'm just saying that the social aspect of the game needs some work.

Also, I'm not exactly a purist bomber. I know that there aren't clear cut roles of sworder, bomber, and gunner. The player is free to do whatever. I myself, though I mainly use bombs, I still use a number of swords.

What I'm trying to say is that bombs in general don't seem to be on the developers' radar. A lot of them could use some work (Irontech, shards, Gravitonetc etc)

I read your thread and thought it was well thought up. Certainly would be more interesting than the current system.

Mon, 12/08/2014 - 00:47
#6
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Yes, more social aspects are always nice.

It appears as though they are partitioning bombs, swords, and guns into updates, so that they can balance all 3 of them separately. Of course bombs aren't on their radar, because they aren't developing that yet. They have in the past developed bombs with some frequency.

The blast bombs did receive some work a while ago. They used to have next to no radius, and that made them pretty wild whenever you had to predict where enemies would end up. They were also given the stun status... compared to how they were at that point, they're far more useful. Unfortunately, they're still pretty terrible largely by way of how they tend to disrupt other forms of crowd control. Similarly, the shard bomb update would be their idea of an improvement for bombers. It just happened to also ruin a perfectly good bomb by way of preventing it from doing damage beyond a point.

Mon, 12/08/2014 - 00:58
#7
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum

I think something big missing here is that it feels like the game is encouraging players to work together with many bombs' support role, weapons like catalyzer, troika and so forth. But a solo playstyle, even a group of 4 soloers, is more efficient at clearing a level than a team that focuses more on utility and teamwork, because having 4 damage roles just kills everything faster, plus the fact that many high-damage weapons also have CC (Brandish, Slug, DA, Blaster, Polaris) AND don't work well with utility weapons (ever try using a catalyzer in a party? good luck).

And as for the actual reading of a thread, it feels like I'm reading a transcript of a speech instead of a written post. Which is fine, except... well, it's a written post (>.>), and speeches are hard to read. .-.

Mon, 12/08/2014 - 08:22
#8
Rhagnarock
my 2 cents

Fehzor is right on some point. I had to explain to newcomer who basil was and why half of our guild was not running FSC.

You start and the word "MISSION" gets slapped to your helmet. PROGRESSION = MISSION. The tutorial needs to be remade (I've said it for the past year or so)

Vets know the game and know the ropes, newcomer... not so much... even with events, they have to seach the game for events (not every newcomer know that the prestige missions hold the events missions). The punkin events with arcade runs aren't explained at all, you'd have to know that X depth with X specific icon and name may spawn an event arena...

What weapons types are in word isn't the same thing as putting someone in a level with slime, giving him a 1* shadow and a 1* piercing and letting him experience for himself which is better. Not just tell him....

There's a lot that could be done better, the communication between gamer and dev has faded out over the past years and was clearly a positive point in SK in it's early years. The announcement were made by people, they would tell funny jokes once in a while (even if some grumpy cats don't like it)

AND I MISS NICK! :(

Mon, 12/08/2014 - 09:32
#9
Kickthebucket's picture
Kickthebucket
money/crown

best way to get people to play together... either makes the gates harder then the misions or/and improve proffit when running with a larger group (now the ONLY upside is you get more crystals...)

most of the time running with random people just sucks (be it spamming charges and so trowing every damn monster at you, hitting switches when you walk over the gate, make a big mess of everything, and so on...)

but increase profit in coop and voila people will swarm together like flies on crap :)

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